Re: [WSG] Teaching CSS
Cole Kuryakin wrote: Besides a book, are there any on-line, step-by-step “foundation to penthouse” curriculum course that anyone knows about and TRUSTS by experience? Thanks to all for weighing through this windy post; and advance appreciation to all who care to comment. I'm guessing, that as a designer, you're a visual learner, so may I suggest a different offering by Eric Meyer: CSS Web Site Design - Hands On Training. http://tinyurl.com/3yeqyb 60 step by step tutorials, and the accompanying CD has videos. If you, or your designer are more book learners, then Stylin with CSS http://tinyurl.com/2nd2yf is a good read with a designer slant. after that there are dozens more good books on mastering CSS. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Teaching CSS
On 3/17/07, Cole Kuryakin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: With that lengthy pre-amble, I've got to ask – is there a GREAT book out there that steps through the learning process of CSS right from the bare bones that both I and my new artist can use? You're going to get lots of recommendations for great books. I don't know if there is one book that will suit exactly what you have in mind, so you may have to invest in a few volumes for your library. One title that I like a lot, that may be useful if your designer is used to doing things the old-school table-based way, is Dan Cederholm's Bulletproof Web Design. It outlines common problems, the old-school solution, and how the same thing can be done better with CSS and good markup. Good luck! K. -- Kay Smoljak business: www.cleverstarfish.com standards: kay.zombiecoder.com coldfusion: kay.smoljak.com personal: goatlady.wordpress.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Teaching CSS
On 3/17/07, Cole Kuryakin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: With that lengthy pre-amble, I've got to ask – is there a GREAT book out there that steps through the learning process of CSS right from the bare bones that both I and my new artist can use? One book that I've heard great things about for absolute beginners (and that teaches the right way to do things) is Ian Lloyd's Sitepoint book, Build Your Own Web Site The Right Way Using HTML CSS: http://www.sitepoint.com/books/html1/ I've not read it myself, but I'd absolutely trust Ian to do things the right way. Matthew. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] centring and viewport size (OT?)
I'm sorry if this is OT [but hey - it's weekend :-) ] but I'm pretty useless at javascript, DOM and all that and I've really struggled finding the info I need. Most of the methods (non-tables) for centering a div vertically (and horizontally) suffer from the same problem: they use the div height to attach a top margin and use percentages. The result is that, when the window size gets to be smaller than the div size, the top of the content can't be seen and it won't scroll. So, it seemed to me, it must be simple to 'get' the viewport size (javascript, DOM?), subtract the div height, then apply a top margin in CSS with php. I'd rather do it all in php to avoid folk without js, but that seems improbable) But I'm in a muddle! I feel sure someone has already done this, so I'm asking if anyone can point me somewhere for the info I need? I can't find it! Thanks. -- Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Teaching CSS
Cole, I'm not sure that we can all fully understand CSS especially with browser technology changing but here are some books that have helped me. Like you, I haven't had the time to truly dig into it. CSS Mastery by Andy BuddISBN 1-59059-614-5 Site Point HTML Utopia Designing Without Tables by Dan Shafer ISBN 0-9579218-2-9 Site Point The CSS Anthology by Rachel Andrew ISBN 0-9579218-8-8 Eric Meyer On CSS More Eric Meyer On CSS The one that helped me the most I think was HTML Utopia Designing Without Tables Hope this helps, Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cole Kuryakin Sent: 03/17/2007 12:48 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Teaching CSS Importance: High Hello All - My background for the past 27 years has been in design. 6 years ago I realized the (financial) necessity to begin learning web design. 3 years after that came the next leap into HTML/PHP/CSS. So far, so good - well, most of the time anyway. I've always been a one-man-band, but now I'm finding myself much busier than I can handle by myself so I've had to take on another designer who, while quite good at his art, has never really been fully and satisfactorily exposed to the fundamentals of CSS. So, I've got to teach him. And that's the problem. While my knowledge of CSS has gotten me through each project, and each sheet validates, I still consider myself a learner as I've never had much time to really, really, really understand the box model and other fundamentals that, lord knows, I SHOULD understand completely by now. I've learned what I know just via various internet sites and through the help and guidance of wonderful groups like the WSG. So, I'm at a crossroads. how can I teach something that I don't feel 100% competent in? But the clock is ticking; clients are waiting, and my freelance artist is calling asking humm, this is breaking. how should I fix it? To which I respond . Ah, humm. let me get back to you on that - and a new email flies out to the good folks in this great group for help. With that lengthy pre-amble, I've got to ask - is there a GREAT book out there that steps through the learning process of CSS right from the bare bones that both I and my new artist can use? Not theoretical stuff, but hand-on, simply-put, illustrative? There are a lot of books out there I know, but I need a great one, that's very specific about explaining all the fundamentals of the box model all the way up. I want to complexly stay away from books that promote or talk about css hacks however (I've been using conditional comments and IE specific sheets to deal with these problems with 100% success). A number of SitePoint books on CSS seem pretty good - based upon their sample-chapters download - but before I spend US$40 on one, has anyone here used them? Besides a book, are there any on-line, step-by-step foundation to penthouse curriculum course that anyone knows about and TRUSTS by experience? Thanks to all for weighing through this windy post; and advance appreciation to all who care to comment. Cole *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Brand logos with links to home
Hi I was wondering what the general consensus was on whether the main logo on a site should always be a link back to the home page. Is this a general 'rule of thumb' or do many tend not to do this? Aye's or Nay's appreciated Thanks Lee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] centring and viewport size (OT?)
Hi Bob How about adding an 'overflow: scroll' to the containing div, or failing that allocate it a 'min-height'? That might avoid having to use unnecessary javascript. Regards Lee On 17 Mar 2007, at 13:03, Designer wrote: I'm sorry if this is OT [but hey - it's weekend :-) ] but I'm pretty useless at javascript, DOM and all that and I've really struggled finding the info I need. Most of the methods (non-tables) for centering a div vertically (and horizontally) suffer from the same problem: they use the div height to attach a top margin and use percentages. The result is that, when the window size gets to be smaller than the div size, the top of the content can't be seen and it won't scroll. So, it seemed to me, it must be simple to 'get' the viewport size (javascript, DOM?), subtract the div height, then apply a top margin in CSS with php. I'd rather do it all in php to avoid folk without js, but that seems improbable) But I'm in a muddle! I feel sure someone has already done this, so I'm asking if anyone can point me somewhere for the info I need? I can't find it! Thanks. -- Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Teaching CSS
Hi I agree with all the comments made so far. The book(s) that helped me the most get my head around CSS and it's applied techniques were: Web Standards Solutions: Dan Cederholm CSS Mastery, Advanced Web Standard Solutions: Andy Budd Designing With Web Standards: Jeffrey Zeldman (new version just came off the press) Although the Zeldman book isn't a pure CSS guide it helps anyone understand the fundamentals of why they work with CSS instead of old FONT tags. Hope this helps. Lee On 17 Mar 2007, at 05:47, Cole Kuryakin wrote: Hello All – My background for the past 27 years has been in design. 6 years ago I realized the (financial) necessity to begin learning web design. 3 years after that came the next leap into HTML/PHP/CSS. So far, so good – well, most of the time anyway. I’ve always been a one-man-band, but now I’m finding myself much busier than I can handle by myself so I’ve had to take on another designer who, while quite good at his art, has never really been fully and satisfactorily exposed to the fundamentals of CSS. So, I’ve got to teach him. And that’s the problem. While my knowledge of CSS has gotten me through each project, and each sheet validates, I still consider myself a “learner” as I’ve never had much time to really, really, really “understand” the box model and other fundamentals that, lord knows, I SHOULD understand completely by now. I’ve learned what I know just via various internet sites and through the help and guidance of wonderful groups like the WSG. So, I’m at a crossroads… how can I teach something that I don’t feel 100% competent in? But the clock is ticking; clients are waiting, and my freelance artist is calling asking “humm, this is breaking… how should I fix it?” To which I respond … “Ah, humm… let me get back to you on that” – and a new email flies out to the good folks in this great group for help. With that lengthy pre-amble, I’ve got to ask – is there a GREAT book out there that steps through the learning process of CSS right from the bare bones that both I and my new artist can use? Not theoretical stuff, but hand-on, simply-put, illustrative? There are a lot of books out there I know, but I need a great one, that’s very specific about explaining all the fundamentals of the box model all the way up. I want to complexly stay away from books that promote or talk about css hacks however (I’ve been using conditional comments and IE specific sheets to deal with these problems with 100% success). A number of SitePoint books on CSS seem pretty good - based upon their sample-chapters download – but before I spend US$40 on one, has anyone here used them? Besides a book, are there any on-line, step-by-step “foundation to penthouse” curriculum course that anyone knows about and TRUSTS by experience? Thanks to all for weighing through this windy post; and advance appreciation to all who care to comment. Cole *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Teaching CSS
Best learning book I have ever seen or owned on CSS was CSS the Missing Manual by David Sawyer McFarland published by Pogue Press / O'Reilly. The book is a great book for beginners especially as it walks you through many of the real world problems. The thing is it does cover a lot of the Hacks including the box model hack from IE5 Kevin J. Lennon Lake Area Webs http://www.lakeareawebs.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lee Powell Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 11:27 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Teaching CSS Importance: High Hi I agree with all the comments made so far. The book(s) that helped me the most get my head around CSS and it's applied techniques were: Web Standards Solutions: Dan Cederholm CSS Mastery, Advanced Web Standard Solutions: Andy Budd Designing With Web Standards: Jeffrey Zeldman (new version just came off the press) Although the Zeldman book isn't a pure CSS guide it helps anyone understand the fundamentals of why they work with CSS instead of old FONT tags. Hope this helps. Lee On 17 Mar 2007, at 05:47, Cole Kuryakin wrote: Hello All - My background for the past 27 years has been in design. 6 years ago I realized the (financial) necessity to begin learning web design. 3 years after that came the next leap into HTML/PHP/CSS. So far, so good - well, most of the time anyway. I've always been a one-man-band, but now I'm finding myself much busier than I can handle by myself so I've had to take on another designer who, while quite good at his art, has never really been fully and satisfactorily exposed to the fundamentals of CSS. So, I've got to teach him. And that's the problem. While my knowledge of CSS has gotten me through each project, and each sheet validates, I still consider myself a learner as I've never had much time to really, really, really understand the box model and other fundamentals that, lord knows, I SHOULD understand completely by now. I've learned what I know just via various internet sites and through the help and guidance of wonderful groups like the WSG. So, I'm at a crossroads. how can I teach something that I don't feel 100% competent in? But the clock is ticking; clients are waiting, and my freelance artist is calling asking humm, this is breaking. how should I fix it? To which I respond . Ah, humm. let me get back to you on that - and a new email flies out to the good folks in this great group for help. With that lengthy pre-amble, I've got to ask - is there a GREAT book out there that steps through the learning process of CSS right from the bare bones that both I and my new artist can use? Not theoretical stuff, but hand-on, simply-put, illustrative? There are a lot of books out there I know, but I need a great one, that's very specific about explaining all the fundamentals of the box model all the way up. I want to complexly stay away from books that promote or talk about css hacks however (I've been using conditional comments and IE specific sheets to deal with these problems with 100% success). A number of SitePoint books on CSS seem pretty good - based upon their sample-chapters download - but before I spend US$40 on one, has anyone here used them? Besides a book, are there any on-line, step-by-step foundation to penthouse curriculum course that anyone knows about and TRUSTS by experience? Thanks to all for weighing through this windy post; and advance appreciation to all who care to comment. Cole *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] centring and viewport size (OT?)
On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 13:03:25 +, Designer wrote: [...] Most of the methods (non-tables) for centering a div vertically (and horizontally) suffer from the same problem: they use the div height to attach a top margin and use percentages. The result is that, when the window size gets to be smaller than the div size, the top of the content can't be seen and it won't scroll. So, it seemed to me, it must be simple to 'get' the viewport size (javascript, DOM?), subtract the div height, then apply a top margin in CSS with php. I'd rather do it all in php to avoid folk without js, but that seems improbable) There are several methods listed on CSS-Discuss[1] (scroll to the bottom). FWIW - Using display: table; and display: table-cell; works well for non-IE browsers[2]. But I never found a pure CSS way that works reliably for IE, so I (gasp) use a single-cell table. You could cheat, and add the table markup to IE with a script. With PHP you would have to sniff for IE, while JavaScript would be a bit more reliable in a way, since IE employs its own methods, avoiding confusion when a browser alters the user-agent string to pretend it is IE. A case for AJAX, perhaps? But - yes - you *do* need client-side scripting to detect the size of the viewport. -- [1] http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CenteringBlockElement [2] http://www.jakpsatweb.cz/css/css-vertical-center-solution.html Cordially, David -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] centring and viewport size (OT?)
On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 13:03:25 +, Designer wrote: [...] Most of the methods (non-tables) for centering a div vertically (and horizontally) suffer from the same problem: they use the div height to attach a top margin and use percentages. The result is that, when the window size gets to be smaller than the div size, the top of the content can't be seen and it won't scroll. So, it seemed to me, it must be simple to 'get' the viewport size (javascript, DOM?), subtract the div height, then apply a top margin in CSS with php. I'd rather do it all in php to avoid folk without js, but that seems improbable) There are several methods listed on CSS-Discuss[1] (scroll to the bottom). FWIW - Using display: table; and display: table-cell; works well for non-IE browsers[2]. But I never found a pure CSS way that works reliably for IE, so I (gasp) use a single-cell table. You could cheat, and add the table markup to IE with a script. With PHP you would have to sniff for IE, while JavaScript would be a bit more reliable in a way, since IE employs its own methods, avoiding confusion when a browser alters the user-agent string to pretend it is IE. A case for AJAX, perhaps? But - yes - you *do* need client-side scripting to detect the size of the viewport. -- [1] http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CenteringBlockElement [2] http://www.jakpsatweb.cz/css/css-vertical-center-solution.html Cordially, David -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Brand logos with links to home
On 3/17/07, Lee Powell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was wondering what the general consensus was on whether the main logo on a site should always be a link back to the home page. Is this a general 'rule of thumb' or do many tend not to do this? I always do this - whether it's a usability enhancement or not is debatable, but it has been standard behaviour on websites since the dawn of the internet, so users have learned the shortcut. I'm sure Jakob has had something to say on the subject as well. Matthew. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] centring and viewport size (OT?)
Designer wrote: Most of the methods (non-tables) for centering a div vertically (and horizontally) suffer from the same problem: they use the div height to attach a top margin and use percentages. The result is that, when the window size gets to be smaller than the div size, the top of the content can't be seen and it won't scroll. Not a problem... http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/test_07_3810.html ...in decent browsers... So, it seemed to me, it must be simple to 'get' the viewport size (javascript, DOM?), subtract the div height, then apply a top margin in CSS with php. I'd rather do it all in php to avoid folk without js, but that seems improbable) ...but if you can find ways to make IE behave, then nothing would be better than that. Make sure you only target IE though :-) Some info... http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/workshop/author/om/measuring.asp http://www.howtocreate.co.uk/tutorials/javascript/browserwindow ...and good luck ;-) regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Brand logos with links to home
At 3/17/2007 07:27 AM, Lee Powell wrote: I was wondering what the general consensus was on whether the main logo on a site should always be a link back to the home page. Is this a general 'rule of thumb' or do many tend not to do this? We routinely link the logo to the home page, and we also include an explicit home page link in the navigation menu. The redundancy of having two home page links seems like a pedantic concern and much less onerous than either of the alternatives: having a linkless logo or omitting home from the nav menu, both of which can produce both client and user complaints. Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
