RE: [WSG] Programmer's Challenge [Virus checkedAU]
I don't think its entirely possible to have a website, look and feel exactly the same on every browser, on every OS... Its never been done with anything - software never looks or behaves the same way (unless its entire engine is ported over - ie. Games) Because OS's have their defining features, they strive to be different. >From that, we cannot expect to ever be able to make a singular website in HTML, and CSS which will look identical on every OS and every Browser... The best shot we have to try is Browsercam, other than that, there really isn't much more possible to do... - Chris Stratford [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.neester.com - -Original Message- From: Justin French [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 4:12 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Programmer's Challenge [Virus checkedAU] On Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 03:14 PM, Ryan Christie wrote: > I think that what was more in our minds was a browser that could > switch rendering engines on the fly in one window. For example, in the > famous FB.7 release, if you navigate to a website that has different > CSS styles available to be loaded, you can switch styles using an icon > that pops up in the lower left-hand corner (for example, > http://www.theward.net, or http://www.texturizer.net/firebird) ... If > there was an application out there that I could use to switch from > rendering engine to rendering engine, browser to browser ... I would > galdly pay over US$100 for the convienience. Wow -- a whole $100 for something that would save you endless hours of work??? Big spender! I just can't see it being possible, unless all browser manufacturers released the source code of their rendering engine (not a chance in the case of IE). Even if they did, there would still be inconsistencies due to the fact that the rendering engines aren't operating in their intended environment. What it seems you're asking for is a plug-in for something like Mozilla which can be set to badly render web pages with bugs (like IE's box model), emulating those rendering engines. Again, the problem here is that you aren't testing against the browser, you're testing against the plug-in's ability to emulate that browser's rendering engine. And it's not just the rendering engine that needs to be tested -- it's the UI (IE's lack of text sizing for px and pt fonts for example), and truckloads of underlying code modules (PNG, JavaScript, the list goes on). The absolute best possible scenario I can think of (and even then, I have no idea if it can be done) is if you loaded everything onto a Mac running OSX, Virtual PC (for the Windows browsers), an XWindows style emulator (for Linux GUI browsers), then came up with an AppleScript for your default browser (eg Safari) which opened up a new window in all installed browsers, using the URL of your current Safari window. You can then systematically look at all the open windows, click around a little, then close them when you're done. EVEN THEN, it's not perfect... you're not testing the windows & linux browsers in a perfect environment (Virtual PC & XWindows are emulators, not physical machines, and are extremely slow), and there's the fact that the Multiple IE thing isn't perfect at all. I'd never say never, but I will say 'dream on' :) Justin French * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Programmer's Challenge [Virus checkedAU]
On Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 03:14 PM, Ryan Christie wrote: I think that what was more in our minds was a browser that could switch rendering engines on the fly in one window. For example, in the famous FB.7 release, if you navigate to a website that has different CSS styles available to be loaded, you can switch styles using an icon that pops up in the lower left-hand corner (for example, http://www.theward.net, or http://www.texturizer.net/firebird) ... If there was an application out there that I could use to switch from rendering engine to rendering engine, browser to browser ... I would galdly pay over US$100 for the convienience. Wow -- a whole $100 for something that would save you endless hours of work??? Big spender! I just can't see it being possible, unless all browser manufacturers released the source code of their rendering engine (not a chance in the case of IE). Even if they did, there would still be inconsistencies due to the fact that the rendering engines aren't operating in their intended environment. What it seems you're asking for is a plug-in for something like Mozilla which can be set to badly render web pages with bugs (like IE's box model), emulating those rendering engines. Again, the problem here is that you aren't testing against the browser, you're testing against the plug-in's ability to emulate that browser's rendering engine. And it's not just the rendering engine that needs to be tested -- it's the UI (IE's lack of text sizing for px and pt fonts for example), and truckloads of underlying code modules (PNG, JavaScript, the list goes on). The absolute best possible scenario I can think of (and even then, I have no idea if it can be done) is if you loaded everything onto a Mac running OSX, Virtual PC (for the Windows browsers), an XWindows style emulator (for Linux GUI browsers), then came up with an AppleScript for your default browser (eg Safari) which opened up a new window in all installed browsers, using the URL of your current Safari window. You can then systematically look at all the open windows, click around a little, then close them when you're done. EVEN THEN, it's not perfect... you're not testing the windows & linux browsers in a perfect environment (Virtual PC & XWindows are emulators, not physical machines, and are extremely slow), and there's the fact that the Multiple IE thing isn't perfect at all. I'd never say never, but I will say 'dream on' :) Justin French * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Programmer's Challenge [Virus checkedAU]
You hit my mental nail on the head Ryan. Peter On 03/02/2004, at 3:14 PM, Ryan Christie wrote: I think that what was more in our minds was a browser that could switch rendering engines on the fly in one window. For example, in the famous FB.7 release, if you navigate to a website that has different CSS styles available to be loaded, you can switch styles using an icon that pops up in the lower left-hand corner (for example, http://www.theward.net, or http://www.texturizer.net/firebird) ... If there was an application out there that I could use to switch from rendering engine to rendering engine, browser to browser ... I would galdly pay over US$100 for the convienience. I currently have all the separate browsers installed. Saying it's a pain in the ass to constantly check between 4 versions of IE, 3 versions of Netscape, 3 versions of Opera, Mozilla 1.5, Firebird.7, reboot into Linux, and check all the browsers in there is a HANEOUS understatement. --Ryan http://www.theward.net
Re: [WSG] Programmer's Challenge [Virus checkedAU]
I think that what was more in our minds was a browser that could switch rendering engines on the fly in one window. For example, in the famous FB.7 release, if you navigate to a website that has different CSS styles available to be loaded, you can switch styles using an icon that pops up in the lower left-hand corner (for example, http://www.theward.net, or http://www.texturizer.net/firebird) ... If there was an application out there that I could use to switch from rendering engine to rendering engine, browser to browser ... I would galdly pay over US$100 for the convienience. I currently have all the separate browsers installed. Saying it's a pain in the ass to constantly check between 4 versions of IE, 3 versions of Netscape, 3 versions of Opera, Mozilla 1.5, Firebird.7, reboot into Linux, and check all the browsers in there is a HANEOUS understatement. --Ryan http://www.theward.net Universal Head wrote: Someone's already found a way to install multiple IEs on one PC: http://www.insert-title.com/web_design/?page=articles/dev/multi_IE Guess my dream of a clever app that can do it all will always remain a dream ... Peter What you'll need: Universal Head Design That Works. 7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore NSW 2048 Australia T (+612) 9517 1466 F (+612) 9565 4747 E [EMAIL PROTECTED] W www.universalhead.com
Re: [WSG] Going Mad with pleasing the browsers
It took me a week's worth of work before I actually smoothed out my CSS
enough to the point where it tested correctly in all browsers that are
CSS-layout capable. The rest just get fed the barebones HTML with
sparse images, and a short & sweet notice about upgrading their
browser with download links :)
In your case, look up how to implement the Opera-friendly and
IE-friendly CSS hacks into your CSS file. It will most likely fix at
least one of the problems below, in addition to other problems that are
likely yet unforseen :) After you get in the habit of div/CSS layouts,
it'll go much quicker. Probably back down to a day at most. I'm sure
the first time we all dealt with table layouts it was tricky at first
as well.
--Ryan
http://www.theward.net
JW wrote:
Hello everyone
I am new to the list and enjoyed reading the woes and
sorrows. J/K :)
I am fairly new to building a site using pure CSS. After
reading so much about CSS and that it seems that the trend is shifting
to no tables, I finally gave in to trying to start on my current
project with using CSS. Using tables, I would have
completed implementing the site in a day. But with CSS, I took 3 days!
Most of the time, trying to find out why Mozilla, Netscape, IE, Opera
are trying to drive me to the grave by rendering different
results...
But despite all these, I can't deny the fact that I
somehow enjoy the torture. CSS is rather fun once you immerse yourself
into it especially when you are not an expert in it. Have been visiting
Max Designs for guidance. I see his website more than my TV &
dressing table these few days.
These 2 are the test pages: -
Long Page: http://designs.sodesires.com/maxprime/index.html
Short Page: http://designs.sodesires.com/maxprime/index_short.html
The browsers I used to test : IE 6, NS 7, Mozilla 0.7,
Opera 7.02
Problems I can't solve: -
1) Opera only: The hover at the main navigation on the top
of the page is not working.
2) Netscape only: For short page - Netscape refuses to
show the background because the sidebar (column 2) is floated to the
right and it is longer than the 1st column. It will show the background
if the 1st column is longer but that is not what I want. I do not want
to be restricted. I want flexibility of text length in either columns.
3) Netscape only: As the footer has top padding in order
to position the contents in it, Netscape shows a white area above the
footer. In order to fix it, I have to put a bottom padding for my
content wrapper. It doesn't matter if it is 1px or 10px etc. As long as
I put a bottom padding, Netscape is happy. Anyone knows why?
Below is the layout of the div I have for the contents
section and the CSS for it: -
#contentcontainer {
position: relative;
width: 747px;
background-image:
url(../../images/global/backgrounds/contents_tiler.gif);
background-color: #365878;
background-repeat: repeat-y;
background-position: left top;
}
#contentwrapper {
font-size: 1em;
text-align: justify;
line-height: 1.8em;
background-image: url(../../images/global/backgrounds/border.gif);
background-repeat: no-repeat;
background-position: right top;
padding-bottom: 1px; /*Fix NS 7 bug where it breaks footer from the
contents container */
padding-top: 30px;
padding-left: 20px;
padding-right: 35px;
}
#sidebar {
margin-top: 30px;
float: right;
width: 25%;
}
#contents {
width: 70%;
background-position: right top;
padding-right: 3%;
}
Being my very 1st attempt using CSS and no tables to build
a site, please do let me know if I did something wrong. I have no idea
how safe it is to present this to the customer. Almost feel like
presenting the table layout instead because I will know that nothing
will go wrong with the layout. Thank you!
Best Wishes
Jaime
IncrediMail - Email has
finally evolved - Click Here
<>
Re: [WSG] Browser / OS combo irregularity
Where to begin... I was going to quote Zeldman's orange book, being the little Zeldmanite I am, but I'll go freestyle in the hopes that I get his concepts well enough by this point in time! Image maps have (for the most part) fallen out of grace. I used to use them at one time (actually, right up until I cracked my ass down on all this standards hoopla and learned more techniques), but have since deviated away from tables all together for the most part and use div layouts. Anyhows, back in my table days I got pretty good with chopping them up just right and piecing them back together again. To make a short story shorter, I found that dicing up the image map into separate chunks using GIF compression made for a quicker load time than using one solid bar. It also carried the benefit of not having to rework an entire site when I wanted to add one new link to a feature on the navigational area. If you're talking HTML filesize, going to chunked linked images will usually save a few bytes as well. It's also a pain to generate new coordinates each time you need to change the map areas. If you're a sucker for accessibility (like I am) image maps also do not permit navigation to screen readers. The more I design, the more I see a different way of doing things - using text where images used to be, using CSS for "this" instead of Javascript, etc... I also see where image maps can bog down a developer in terms of redesign and adding new features. I work for a .edu site as well. http://www.jmu.edu, or more specifically, http://medialab.jmu.edu is my department. In the past year and a half I've been working there, I've done work to quite a few different sites altering them to be more updateable in nature, and am currently doing a site from the ground up in XHTML1.0 + CSS, in a tableless layout environment. The graphics for the layout are 8-bit PNG with a JPG graphical header and total about 12kb in size. The HTML markup without content is roughly 4kb in size. Had I used tables, that would probably easily be around 8 or 9. The CSS file is a one-time download of 9kb, and it runs site-wide. A typical page with content typically loads in around 2.5-3 seconds on 56k modems. So, personally, I think that realm is where everyone should want to eventually wind up at some point in their work. I've gone bit by bit towards a minimalist CSS-driven style of designing web sites, and I'm sort of happy that I wound up there. In the future, redesigning for a fresh look will take about 2 hours, and there's ample room to continue adding content and links in the meantime without a redesign. I'm actually redesigning a site that uses a huge image map tomorrow (http://orgs.jmu.edu/signlanguageclub) and bringing it to valid code and no tables. It's a pretty basic site, so expect some results tomorrow. I'll have both versions posted in their entirety + source around 10pm eastern standard time. I can talk the talk. Tomorrow I walk the walk. ;) Summary: nixing image maps will save you trouble, time, and redesign strife somewhere along the road, ane probably lead to smaller load times as well. --Ryan http://www.theward.net PS - things to keep in mind: I code by hand, despise complex table layouts, and live life and web design by the "Keep It Simple Stupid" motto. Veine K Vikberg wrote: Ryan; Lets hear your reasoning for not using them, and I am willing to change if your reasoning is good enough ;o) However, this client is these days *very* concerned with download time, and as it stands the page is downloading at approximately 8 seconds on a 56K modem under perfect conditions (not that it ever is but...) and that is what he wanted +2 seconds (he said under 10) with the graphics broken up, I am close to that ten second mark, but if there is something I do not know about image maps, please enlighten me. (I did the one located at http://www.mainemaritime.edu 3 years ago when wait was the norm so it was no concern) Regards ~Veine At 07:25 PM 2/2/2004 -0500, you wrote: This really has nothing to do with your email, but I'd recommend staying away from image maps :) i always peek under the hood at the sites that get sent out on the list. As it's not released yet, you'd still have time to change your deployment method. If you don't agree, that's cool. I'm just biased against them :) --Ryan http://www.theward.net Veine K Vikberg wrote: Hello; http://www.mainemaritime.edu/redesign On Mac (OS8.5/IE5.1) looks good, except for around the search box, where there is some weird things going on. If anyone has any help/advice/links to help I would greatly appreciate them, especially the first problem as the client will look on his page through NS 7.1/XP Pro TIA & Regards ~Veine Veine K Vikberg http://www.vikberg.net Professional Web Guru * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
RE: [WSG] Programmer's Challenge
Title: Message Ignore this post (and any other that might arrive late), it was sent at 8:24 this morning, my mailserver (and everyone else apparently) has gone haywire, I guess its the virus that's going around. Taco Fleur Blog http://www.tacofleur.com/index/blog/Methodology http://www.tacofleur.com/index/methodology/ Tell me and I will forgetShow me and I will rememberTeach me and I will learn -Original Message-From: Taco Fleur [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 2 February 2004 8:24 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [WSG] Programmer's Challenge Do you mean this http://www.browsercam.com/ ? Taco Fleur Blog http://www.tacofleur.com/index/blog/Methodology http://www.tacofleur.com/index/methodology/ Tell me and I will forgetShow me and I will rememberTeach me and I will learn -Original Message-From: Universal Head [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 2 February 2004 5:13 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [WSG] Programmer's ChallengeI was thinking today, what the world needs now (apart from love, sweet love), is some genius programmer to come up with an app (must be OSX of course ...) that acts like a browser, but has a popup from which you can select a browser version and platform, which it then accurately emulates. You could then do all your previewing and checking within one browser app.Imagine how much time and effort that would save!! Is it even theoretically possible?Peter GiffordUniversal Head Design That Worksvisit 7/43 bridge road stanmore nsw 2048 australiacall (+612) 9517 1466fax (+612) 9565 4747email [EMAIL PROTECTED]site www.universalhead.com
RE: [WSG] Programmer's Challenge
Title: Message Do you mean this http://www.browsercam.com/ ? Taco Fleur Blog http://www.tacofleur.com/index/blog/Methodology http://www.tacofleur.com/index/methodology/ Tell me and I will forgetShow me and I will rememberTeach me and I will learn -Original Message-From: Universal Head [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 2 February 2004 5:13 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [WSG] Programmer's ChallengeI was thinking today, what the world needs now (apart from love, sweet love), is some genius programmer to come up with an app (must be OSX of course ...) that acts like a browser, but has a popup from which you can select a browser version and platform, which it then accurately emulates. You could then do all your previewing and checking within one browser app.Imagine how much time and effort that would save!! Is it even theoretically possible?Peter GiffordUniversal Head Design That Worksvisit 7/43 bridge road stanmore nsw 2048 australiacall (+612) 9517 1466fax (+612) 9565 4747email [EMAIL PROTECTED]site www.universalhead.com
Re: [WSG] Browser / OS combo irregularity
ROFLMAO! Veine, I'm not trying to be harsh or anything, but the reason for not using image maps is primarily accessibility. Have a look at this: http://www.delorie.com/web/lynxview.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mainemaritime.edu%2Fredesign Brad; That is a great resource, I don't have any descriptions at all yet, for the sake of the concept/design first, all the search engine works comes in stage two, as well as Section 508 (I probably have to attach description tags to a few). This site is primarily for the 20/20 (or so) individuals, but in a few months(years) they will have to adhere to the Section 508/ADA act, so my thinking is to bring them there from the beginning. However, that is ONE strong argument against image maps indeed. I will put that one in my bookmarks for sure, thanks for a great resource Brad :o))) Regards ~Veine Veine K Vikberg http://www.vikberg.net Professional Web Guru
Re: [WSG] Browser / OS combo irregularity
Veine, I'm not trying to be harsh or anything, but the reason for not using image maps is primarily accessibility. Have a look at this: http://www.delorie.com/web/lynxview.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mainemaritime.edu%2Fredesign That's your site as seen through a Lynx browser - text only. GoogleBot and screen-readers would get a similar amount of meaning out of it. As you can see, the image map doesn't work very well at all for programs which only read text. Of course it depends on your target audience, but I'd think the problem with Google alone should be enough to convince you. :) Regards, Brad - Original Message - From: "Veine K Vikberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 1:17 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Browser / OS combo irregularity > Ryan; > > Lets hear your reasoning for not using them, and I am willing to change if > your reasoning is good enough ;o) > However, this client is these days *very* concerned with download time, and > as it stands the page is downloading at approximately 8 seconds on a 56K > modem under perfect conditions (not that it ever is but...) and that is > what he wanted +2 seconds (he said under 10) with the graphics broken > up, I am close to that ten second mark, but if there is something I do not > know about image maps, please enlighten me. (I did the one located at > http://www.mainemaritime.edu 3 years ago when wait was the norm so it was > no concern) > >Regards >~Veine > > At 07:25 PM 2/2/2004 -0500, you wrote: > > > >This really has nothing to do with your email, but I'd recommend staying > >away from image maps :) i always peek under the hood at the sites that get > >sent out on the list. As it's not released yet, you'd still have time to > >change your deployment method. If you don't agree, that's cool. I'm just > >biased against them :) > > > >--Ryan > >http://www.theward.net > > > >Veine K Vikberg wrote: > > > >>Hello; > >> > >>http://www.mainemaritime.edu/redesign > >> > >>On Mac (OS8.5/IE5.1) looks good, except for around the search box, where > >>there is some weird things going on. > >> > >>If anyone has any help/advice/links to help I would greatly appreciate > >>them, especially the first problem as the client will look on his page > >>through NS 7.1/XP Pro > >> > >>TIA & Regards > >> ~Veine > > > >Veine K Vikberg > >http://www.vikberg.net > >Professional Web Guru > * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Programmer's Challenge [Virus checkedAU]
Someone's already found a way to install multiple IEs on one PC: http://www.insert-title.com/web_design/?page=articles/dev/multi_IE Guess my dream of a clever app that can do it all will always remain a dream ... Peter What you'll need: Universal Head Design That Works. 7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore NSW 2048 Australia T (+612) 9517 1466 F (+612) 9565 4747 E [EMAIL PROTECTED] W www.universalhead.com
RE: [WSG] Browser / OS combo irregularity
Chris; At 11:49 AM 2/3/2004 +1100, you wrote: When I view the new website it looks great! Thanks, been in the works for a while, VERY demanding customer of mine.. One thing I did notice was, down the bottom, near the SEARCH field, there is a LEFT border next to the text input... Left border ... ack, must be an inheritance, but from where? I am running IE6 with WinXP Pro. You have NN7.1 installed too? Maybe I just see it because of a browser anomaly or something... But never-the-less at least 1 person can see it... Enough for me, thanks so much for pointing it out. Keep em coming Regards ~Veine On this page: http://www.mainemaritime.edu/redesign Veine K Vikberg http://www.vikberg.net Professional Web Guru
Re: [WSG] Browser / OS combo irregularity
Ryan; Lets hear your reasoning for not using them, and I am willing to change if your reasoning is good enough ;o) However, this client is these days *very* concerned with download time, and as it stands the page is downloading at approximately 8 seconds on a 56K modem under perfect conditions (not that it ever is but...) and that is what he wanted +2 seconds (he said under 10) with the graphics broken up, I am close to that ten second mark, but if there is something I do not know about image maps, please enlighten me. (I did the one located at http://www.mainemaritime.edu 3 years ago when wait was the norm so it was no concern) Regards ~Veine At 07:25 PM 2/2/2004 -0500, you wrote: This really has nothing to do with your email, but I'd recommend staying away from image maps :) i always peek under the hood at the sites that get sent out on the list. As it's not released yet, you'd still have time to change your deployment method. If you don't agree, that's cool. I'm just biased against them :) --Ryan http://www.theward.net Veine K Vikberg wrote: Hello; http://www.mainemaritime.edu/redesign On Mac (OS8.5/IE5.1) looks good, except for around the search box, where there is some weird things going on. If anyone has any help/advice/links to help I would greatly appreciate them, especially the first problem as the client will look on his page through NS 7.1/XP Pro TIA & Regards ~Veine Veine K Vikberg http://www.vikberg.net Professional Web Guru
Re: [WSG] Programmer's Challenge [Virus checkedAU]
This email is to be read subject to the disclaimer below. Peter, What you'll need: 1. One (possibly obsolete) PC for each version of Internet Explorer you want to test on. You can arrange the monitors in a semicircle around the desk or possibly use a KVM switch. Or you could use Virtual PC I suppose. Mozilla, NS4 and others can run on one of the Windows machines. You might also want to set up a Linux box for Konqueror. 2. Some means of remote procedure call. This could be SSH or a web service. It needs to be available on each of the testing machines. 3. An HTML form with a drop-down list (multi-select would be nice) for the browser and a text box for the URL. 4. Backend code that will start up the selected browser(s) with the URL in the text box. This would be the easiest solution provided that every browser you want to test on will accept an URL as a command-line argument. Then you can just execute a command like "C:\Program Files\Internet Explorer\iexplore.exe http://www.yoursite.com/"; on every machine. This is theoretically possible. Writing an application that will accurately emulate every single rendering bug for even a single browser is pretty much impossible -- especially if the said browser is Internet Explorer. So you must run the original browser, just like browsercam does. Launching the browsers this way will let you scroll, click and hover and yet the process is automated so you can launch an URL on all your browsers in one place. ...And you'll have a healthy glow from all those monitors ;-) HTH, Vik -- Viktor Radnai Web Developer Business Innovation Online Ernst & Young Australia http://www.eyware.com/ http://www.eyonline.com/ Direct: +612 9248 4361 Fax: +612 9248 4073 Mobile: +61408 662 546 -- Disclaimer: I'm not going to code this beast for you ;-) NOTICE - This communication contains information which is confidential and the copyright of Ernst & Young or a third party. If you are not the intended recipient of this communication please delete and destroy all copies and telephone Ernst & Young on 1800 655 717 immediately. If you are the intended recipient of this communication you should not copy, disclose or distribute this communication without the authority of Ernst & Young. Any views expressed in this Communication are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Ernst & Young. Except as required at law, Ernst & Young does not represent, warrant and/or guarantee that the integrity of this communication has been maintained nor that the communication is free of errors, virus, interception or interference. Liability limited by the Accountants Scheme, approved under the Professional Standards Act 1994 (NSW) * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] Going Mad with pleasing the browsers
Hello everyone
I am new to the list and enjoyed reading the woes and sorrows. J/K :)
I am fairly new to building a site using pure CSS. After reading so much about CSS and that it seems that the trend is shifting to no tables, I finally gave in to trying to start on my current project with using CSS. Using tables, I would have completed implementing the site in a day. But with CSS, I took 3 days! Most of the time, trying to find out why Mozilla, Netscape, IE, Opera are trying to drive me to the grave by rendering different results...
But despite all these, I can't deny the fact that I somehow enjoy the torture. CSS is rather fun once you immerse yourself into it especially when you are not an expert in it. Have been visiting Max Designs for guidance. I see his website more than my TV & dressing table these few days.
These 2 are the test pages: -
Long Page: http://designs.sodesires.com/maxprime/index.html
Short Page: http://designs.sodesires.com/maxprime/index_short.html
The browsers I used to test : IE 6, NS 7, Mozilla 0.7, Opera 7.02
Problems I can't solve: -
1) Opera only: The hover at the main navigation on the top of the page is not working.
2) Netscape only: For short page - Netscape refuses to show the background because the sidebar (column 2) is floated to the right and it is longer than the 1st column. It will show the background if the 1st column is longer but that is not what I want. I do not want to be restricted. I want flexibility of text length in either columns.
3) Netscape only: As the footer has top padding in order to position the contents in it, Netscape shows a white area above the footer. In order to fix it, I have to put a bottom padding for my content wrapper. It doesn't matter if it is 1px or 10px etc. As long as I put a bottom padding, Netscape is happy. Anyone knows why?
Below is the layout of the div I have for the contents section and the CSS for it: -
#contentcontainer { position: relative; width: 747px; background-image: url(../../images/global/backgrounds/contents_tiler.gif); background-color: #365878; background-repeat: repeat-y; background-position: left top;}
#contentwrapper { font-size: 1em; text-align: justify; line-height: 1.8em; background-image: url(../../images/global/backgrounds/border.gif); background-repeat: no-repeat; background-position: right top; padding-bottom: 1px; /*Fix NS 7 bug where it breaks footer from the contents container */ padding-top: 30px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 35px;}
#sidebar { margin-top: 30px; float: right; width: 25%;}
#contents { width: 70%; background-position: right top; padding-right: 3%;
}
Being my very 1st attempt using CSS and no tables to build a site, please do let me know if I did something wrong. I have no idea how safe it is to present this to the customer. Almost feel like presenting the table layout instead because I will know that nothing will go wrong with the layout. Thank you!
Best Wishes
Jaime
IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here
[WSG] Two column CSS layout. One fixed when scrolling in IE?
Can anyone point me to a resource or let me know if it is possible to have
a two column layout and have one of them fixed when the page is scrolled in
Internet Explorer.
I am aware that "position: fixed" works in CSS 2 supported browsers but IE
doesn't recognise this.
I have seen some javascript API's that do something similar but want to try
and avoid API's if I can.
I have also tried this hack
html
{
overflow: hidden;
}
body
{
height: 100%;
overflow: auto;
}
but there is some strange behaviour with the browser scroll bars floating
below the content and the browser scrollbars now appear when the page is
printed.
I also looked at "left: expression(document.body.scrollLeft + offsetWidth -
offsetWidth + 625);" and the equivalent "top" property for IE browsers but
the div still flickers.
So if anyone has any other suggestions that would be great.
-- -- -- -- -- -- --
David Marsh
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.marshy.com/
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The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
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Re: [WSG] Flowchart using CSS
I think it's impossible to do in HTML, there's no way you can model the relationships. You'd need to write your own XML schema to fully encompass everything that needs to be represented, then parse it through some rendering system to make any decent sense out of it. You have to draw a line somewhere between writing your own application and just putting up an image. -- Cameron W: www.themaninblue.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Flowchart using CSS
I think what you are looking for is something like this. http://www.surfare.net/~toolman/temp/diagram.html -- -- -- -- -- -- -- David Marsh [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.marshy.com/ Chris Blown <[EMAIL PROTECTED] s.com.au> To WSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 03/02/2004 11:59 cc Subject Please respond to Re: [WSG] Flowchart using CSS <[EMAIL PROTECTED] group.org> Yeah, my thoughts exactly.. it'd be pretty icky. I'll end up going the graphic way most likely, the dynamic SVG idea is a good one since I need to be able to highlight certain parts of the work flow dynamically. Here is one exmaple +-+ | S | +-+ | +-+ +-+ | 1 |---| 1a | +-+ +-+ | | +-+ +-+ | 2 | | E | +-+ +-+ | +-+ | 3 | +-+ | +-+ | E | +-+ Thanks Chris Blown On Tue, 2004-02-03 at 10:54, Mark Stanton wrote: > I honestly think that flowcharts are one example where HTML is not the right > answer. For one there are no real semantics available for this type of > information and secondly you're going to have a bugger of a time making it > look decent. > > I'd go for a graphic with a descriptive paragraph in the longdesc attribute. On Tue, 2004-02-03 at 11:21, Justin French wrote: > I don't think there's enough semantic elements to do this any justice, > but providing a visual diagram of what you'd like to show in would be a > good start for the brainstorming. My guess is you'd end up with a lot > generic s, using the class attr as some form of rel attribute like > what we do in and . > > SVG maybe? > > Justin French * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Flowchart using CSS
You could use CSS...
Simply have:
FlowChart Prepared
then the CSS could be:
div.question
{
background-image: url(diamond.gif);
background-repear: no-repeat;
}
etc...
simply use images, but it would be a lot simpler than making them up
yourself
-
Chris Stratford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.neester.com
-
-Original Message-
From: Justin French [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 11:21 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Flowchart using CSS
On Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 10:48 AM, Chris Blown wrote:
> How would one markup a simple flowchart using xhtml / css? A few ?
> Hardest part is how to do the connecting lines..
I don't think there's enough semantic elements to do this any justice,
but providing a visual diagram of what you'd like to show in would be a
good start for the brainstorming. My guess is you'd end up with a lot
generic s, using the class attr as some form of rel attribute like
what we do in and .
SVG maybe?
Justin French
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
*
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
*
Re: [WSG] Flowchart using CSS
Yeah, my thoughts exactly.. it'd be pretty icky. I'll end up going the graphic way most likely, the dynamic SVG idea is a good one since I need to be able to highlight certain parts of the work flow dynamically. Here is one exmaple +-+ | S | +-+ | +-+ +-+ | 1 |---| 1a | +-+ +-+ | | +-+ +-+ | 2 | | E | +-+ +-+ | +-+ | 3 | +-+ | +-+ | E | +-+ Thanks Chris Blown On Tue, 2004-02-03 at 10:54, Mark Stanton wrote: > I honestly think that flowcharts are one example where HTML is not the right > answer. For one there are no real semantics available for this type of > information and secondly you're going to have a bugger of a time making it > look decent. > > I'd go for a graphic with a descriptive paragraph in the longdesc attribute. On Tue, 2004-02-03 at 11:21, Justin French wrote: > I don't think there's enough semantic elements to do this any justice, > but providing a visual diagram of what you'd like to show in would be a > good start for the brainstorming. My guess is you'd end up with a lot > generic s, using the class attr as some form of rel attribute like > what we do in and . > > SVG maybe? > > Justin French * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Browser / OS combo irregularity
When I view the new website it looks great! One thing I did notice was, down the bottom, near the SEARCH field, there is a LEFT border next to the text input... I am running IE6 with WinXP Pro. Maybe I just see it because of a browser anomaly or something... But never-the-less at least 1 person can see it... Cheers! - Chris Stratford [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.neester.com - -Original Message- From: Veine K Vikberg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 9:02 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] Browser / OS combo irregularity Hello; Well, thanks to the Dane on this list (Anders Ebdrup) one of my major problems are fixed, now I have a smaller one (I think). On this page: http://www.mainemaritime.edu/redesign I have some problems, it looks wonderful in Moz/NN6+/IE with WinXP/98 Home on PC, which by the looks of the server logs are around 92% of the population visiting this site, but in Netscape 7 / XP Pro there is some things that are breaking apart (I can only say what the client told me, as I don't have XP Pro to test out on) The middle rollover has a white line under it, and the bottom right graphic (US News image) has a black line under it, and the around the search box there are some strange 2-3 pixel wide blue before the input box. Anyone having any clue to why this happen, and even better how to deal with it? On Mac (OS8.5/IE5.1) looks good, except for around the search box, where there is some weird things going on. If anyone has any help/advice/links to help I would greatly appreciate them, especially the first problem as the client will look on his page through NS 7.1/XP Pro TIA & Regards ~Veine Veine K Vikberg http://www.vikberg.net Professional Web Guru * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Browser / OS combo irregularity
This really has nothing to do with your email, but I'd recommend staying away from image maps :) i always peek under the hood at the sites that get sent out on the list. As it's not released yet, you'd still have time to change your deployment method. If you don't agree, that's cool. I'm just biased against them :) --Ryan http://www.theward.net Veine K Vikberg wrote: Hello; Well, thanks to the Dane on this list (Anders Ebdrup) one of my major problems are fixed, now I have a smaller one (I think). On this page: http://www.mainemaritime.edu/redesign I have some problems, it looks wonderful in Moz/NN6+/IE with WinXP/98 Home on PC, which by the looks of the server logs are around 92% of the population visiting this site, but in Netscape 7 / XP Pro there is some things that are breaking apart (I can only say what the client told me, as I don't have XP Pro to test out on) The middle rollover has a white line under it, and the bottom right graphic (US News image) has a black line under it, and the around the search box there are some strange 2-3 pixel wide blue before the input box. Anyone having any clue to why this happen, and even better how to deal with it? On Mac (OS8.5/IE5.1) looks good, except for around the search box, where there is some weird things going on. If anyone has any help/advice/links to help I would greatly appreciate them, especially the first problem as the client will look on his page through NS 7.1/XP Pro TIA & Regards ~Veine Veine K Vikberg http://www.vikberg.net Professional Web Guru * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Flowchart using CSS
On Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 10:48 AM, Chris Blown wrote: How would one markup a simple flowchart using xhtml / css? A few ? Hardest part is how to do the connecting lines.. I don't think there's enough semantic elements to do this any justice, but providing a visual diagram of what you'd like to show in would be a good start for the brainstorming. My guess is you'd end up with a lot generic s, using the class attr as some form of rel attribute like what we do in and . SVG maybe? Justin French * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Programmer's Challenge
On Mon, 2004-02-02 at 17:13, Universal Head wrote: > I was thinking today, what the world needs now (apart from love, > sweetlove), is some genius programmer to come up with an app (must be > OSXof course ...) that acts like a browser, but has a popup from > whichyou can select a browser version and platform, which it > thenaccurately emulates. You could then do all your previewing > andchecking within one browser app. > > Imagine how much time and effort that would save!! Is it > eventheoretically possible? zeldman.com featured a (non-free) site a while ago that took as input a page and spat back images of that same page rendered on a bunch of different browsers on a bunch of different platforms. Maybe the people responsible for that page could produce an app that ran locally and grabbed those renders on request? A local app that could do what you're asking would be mind-bogglingly difficult to write. -- Andrew Taumoefolau * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Flowchart using CSS
I honestly think that flowcharts are one example where HTML is not the right answer. For one there are no real semantics available for this type of information and secondly you're going to have a bugger of a time making it look decent. I'd go for a graphic with a descriptive paragraph in the longdesc attribute. Cheers Mark -- Mark Stanton Technical Director Gruden Pty Ltd Tel: 9956 6388 Mob: 0410 458 201 Fax: 9956 8433 http://www.gruden.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Opera bug?
Hello Chris, It was foretold that on 2-2-2004 @ 12:55:01 GMT+1100 (which was 2:55:01 where I live) Chris Stratford would mumble: CS> When I use anchors like that I use:: Yeah, that's the traditional way i know, but in this case using CSS i noticed that it works in most browsers except Opera so i thought if it was a bug or something else :-) -- Best regards, Luc _ http://www.dzinelabs.com Powered by The Bat! version 1.63 Beta/7 with Windows 2000 (build 2195), version 5.0 Service Pack 4 and using the best browser: Opera. "Im all for bringing back the birch, but only between consenting adults." - Gore Vidal (1925) - US author * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] Flowchart using CSS
Hey How would one markup a simple flowchart using xhtml / css? A few ? Hardest part is how to do the connecting lines.. Any ideas? Cheers Chris Blown * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] CSS Menu like on Dev-Edge - tutorial anywhere? [Virus checkedAU]
This email is to be read subject to the disclaimer below. Hi Mike, The Devedge redesign is described in detail here - http://devedge.netscape.com/viewsource/2003/devedge-redesign-css/ Go down to the section on "Menu Styling" for their discussion about it. > (Yes, I know it's the js > that makes it drop down, it's the css aspect I'm looking for help with). One of the nice things about this menu is that in real browsers (Mozilla etc) the javascript does not do the menus but they are done completely with CSS. There are :hover elements which change the display of the submenu from 'none' to 'block' which cause the appropriate submenu to display. Another good example of the menus are at gazingus.org - http://www.gazingus.org/html/Using_Lists_for_DHTML_Menus.html Cheers, Mark Lynch Development Manager - Business Innovation Online Ernst & Young - Australia http://www.eyware.com/ http://www.eyonline.com/ Direct: +612 9248 4038 Fax: +612 9248 4073 Mobile: +61 421 050 695 "Michael Kear" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> rks.com>cc: Subject: [WSG] CSS Menu like on Dev-Edge - tutorial anywhere? [Virus checkedAU] 03/02/2004 12:00 AM Please respond to wsg I've been trying to figure out how the nice CSS-based menu on the Netscape Dev-Edge.com works, but when I look at the style sheets they use, there are so many bits and pieces all over the place, It's totally confusing for me. Is there a tutorial anywhere that shows how to make this menu?Believe it or not, I have it working on a site, but I did a cut-and-paste job on it, and there's so many styles in the sheets I don't know what does what. I'd rather like to build the menu again bit by bit so I know what everything does. I've looked through Russ's CSS Listorial, and it's wonderful, but it doesn't show how the drop-down menu part works. (Yes, I know it's the js that makes it drop down, it's the css aspect I'm looking for help with). Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * NOTICE - This communication contains information which is confidential and the copyright of Ernst & Young or a third party. If you are not the intended recipient of this communication please delete and destroy all copies and telephone Ernst & Young on 1800 655 717 immediately. If you are the intended recipient of this communication you should not copy, disclose or distribute this communication without the authority of Ernst & Young. Any views expressed in this Communication are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Ernst & Young. Except as required at law, Ernst & Young does not represent, warrant and/or guarantee that the integrity of this communication has been maintained nor that the communication is free of errors, virus, interception or interference. Liability limited by the Accountants Scheme, approved under the Professional Standards Act 1994 (NSW) * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] Incorrect display of characters
Hey all.. Now there might be a really simple answer to this, but I recently been reading the article http://www.uiweb.com/issues/issue24.htm For some reason, when I was at home using Firebird 0.7 or Opera 7, characters such as ' appear normal. However, when I use IE6.0 at work, characters such as ' appear as question marks (?). In other words, words such as "I'm" appear as "I?m". I noticed that there is no doctype. Is this IE going into quirks mode? I never would have thought this would happen with characters. I am wondering if anyone else has the same problem. I find it makes it a bit annoying when reading. Ralph This transmission is for the intended addresse only. If you have received this transmission in error, please delete it and notify the sender. The contents of this E-Mail are the opinion of the author only and are not necessarily endorsed by the New South Wales Department of Corrective Services. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Programmer's Challenge
Justin, ...doesn't preview content 'below the fold'...doesn't let you preview behaviour of pseudo classes or the behaviour of JavaScript...doesn't allow the tester to play with various user preferences, system preferences, and things like increasing or decreasing font sizes... True it's not without limitations, but it's an amazingly useful tool allowing you to preview your layout across multiple browsers and platforms. I don't have a mindset of pixel perfect at all, but I do care about accessibility. Forget about design for a second here -- the hard fact remains that there are far too many bugs in today's common browsers (IE5.5 being my pet hate) to assume that "standards compliant = accessible". I'm glad you agree with me on this. The hard fact that is if you build complex designs they will render differently across browsers. --Ben * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Browser / OS combo irregularity
Veine, I just tested it in Netscape 7.1/XP and everything renders correctly. Also in Mozilla FB.7 it is behaving itself just fine. Make sure your client's browser settings are set to default, ie; without text zoom, etc. Regards, Ian. > > > Hello; > > Well, thanks to the Dane on this list (Anders Ebdrup) one of my major > problems are fixed, now I have a smaller one (I think). > > On this page: > > http://www.mainemaritime.edu/redesign > > I have some problems, it looks wonderful in Moz/NN6+/IE with WinXP/98 Home > on PC, which by the looks of the server logs are around 92% of the > population visiting this site, but in Netscape 7 / XP Pro there is some > things that are breaking apart (I can only say what the client told me, as > I don't have XP Pro to test out on) The middle rollover has a white line > under it, and the bottom right graphic (US News image) has a black line > under it, and the around the search box there are some strange 2-3 pixel > wide blue before the input box. > > Anyone having any clue to why this happen, and even better how to deal with it? > > On Mac (OS8.5/IE5.1) looks good, except for around the search box, where > there is some weird things going on. > > If anyone has any help/advice/links to help I would greatly appreciate > them, especially the first problem as the client will look on his page > through NS 7.1/XP Pro > > TIA & Regards > ~Veine > > Veine K Vikberg > http://www.vikberg.net > Professional Web Guru > > -- * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Opera - hrumph - more like school play ...
It's the margin: 0 auto 0 auto; in #container. but I'm sure you already knew that. Err, no I didn't. Opera has a problem with auto margins? How do I get the container to centre in Opera then? Funny thing is, Opera on my Mac seems to load the page forever and pushes the container even farther when I hit stop. That's weird, that doesn't happen on my Mac OSX 10.3.2. http://www.universalhead.com/clients/jazzfactory/jazzfactory/ http://www.universalhead.com/clients/jazzfactory/jazzfactory/css/ main.css * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Programmer's Challenge
"Get thee to a non-perfectionist's nunnery" he cried. I've tried, I've tried, but I was a designer for many years before I came a web expert (!) and my desire for perfectionism runs deep. But anyway, tradeoffs aside, this would still be an obscenely handy program, since even with the most philosophically-correct midset in the world, we are always going to have to check sites against the major browsers on both Mac and PC platforms. Loosening up from pixel-perfect isn't going to change that. Not having hacks and being standards-compliant still leaves sites subject to the petty vagaries of different rendering engines. BrowserCam is great and I applaud it, but its flaws have been pointed out on another post, and I personally find it too pricey and I don't find the pricing model effective for me. Sorry ... The challenge remains for some genius 18 year old to take up ... Peter On 02/02/2004, at 9:55 PM, Ben Bishop wrote: Peter, It exists. It's platform independent. It even overcomes the inherent flaws of browser "emulators" and "simulators." It's called Browsercam. You can even use it at http://www.browsercam.com/ But shhh, you aren't allowed to tell anyone. You could simply stanch the tears, salve the pain and save the effort by changing your mindset of pixel perfect in every browser, every platform. Why exhaust your time attempting to satisfy different 0.x% segments of visitors, when perhaps y% of your visitors will not appreciate _your_ design or purposely use technology that breaks it in order to achieve _their_ goals (eg. Google cache, assistive technology, ctrl+mousewheel.) Building a good looking standards compliant site that delivers its message across all browsers, all platforms, all devices without resorting to hacks or work-arounds is highly achievable. It comes down to how you choose to spend your time. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] Browser / OS combo irregularity
Hello; Well, thanks to the Dane on this list (Anders Ebdrup) one of my major problems are fixed, now I have a smaller one (I think). On this page: http://www.mainemaritime.edu/redesign I have some problems, it looks wonderful in Moz/NN6+/IE with WinXP/98 Home on PC, which by the looks of the server logs are around 92% of the population visiting this site, but in Netscape 7 / XP Pro there is some things that are breaking apart (I can only say what the client told me, as I don't have XP Pro to test out on) The middle rollover has a white line under it, and the bottom right graphic (US News image) has a black line under it, and the around the search box there are some strange 2-3 pixel wide blue before the input box. Anyone having any clue to why this happen, and even better how to deal with it? On Mac (OS8.5/IE5.1) looks good, except for around the search box, where there is some weird things going on. If anyone has any help/advice/links to help I would greatly appreciate them, especially the first problem as the client will look on his page through NS 7.1/XP Pro TIA & Regards ~Veine Veine K Vikberg http://www.vikberg.net Professional Web Guru
Re: [WSG] z-indexing
- Original Message - From: "James Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Flash will always come to the top as in the link below although this is not due to the Active-x i-ness of the plugin (Flash is only an ActiveX control for IE for Windows - see the object tag discussion at that xml.com link I posted last week). > > Have you tried using the only Satay code (i.e not Embed) - works ok on all modern browsers? I always use the Satay method, but this is the first time I have ever wanted to mess with the z-indexing. As it turns out, I can use the CSS z-index property on two separate Flash objects, and this will achieve the specific effect I am after. Originally, I wanted a PNG floating over a Flash animation, but now I see I can convert the PNG into a Flash object and do it that way. Simon Jessey -- mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] blog: http://jessey.net/blog/ work: http://keystonewebsites.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] z-indexing
- Original Message - From: "Phillips, Wendy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Flash will always come to the top as it is an activeX object you can use the wmode parameter but that is not supported in all browsers http://www.macromedia.com/support/flash/ts/documents/flash_top_layer.htm Thanks for the tip - it has given me a direction to go with. Simon Jessey -- mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] blog: http://jessey.net/blog/ work: http://keystonewebsites.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] z-indexing
- Original Message - From: "Mark Lynch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 6:10 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] z-indexing > > Hi Simon, > > I had a play with the page you put up and have no solution (on Mozilla > for Linux anyway) but just thought I'd point out that the z-index > property is only valid for positioned elements - absolute, fixed and > relative - and should be ignored on static elements. > > The code in your example may well have just been left over from > experimenting with it but just thought I'd mention it ;-) Thanks, Mark. I had forgotten about the rules for z-indexing with respect to positioning - thanks for reminding me. Simon Jessey -- mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] blog: http://jessey.net/blog/ work: http://keystonewebsites.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Opera - hrumph - more like school play ...
It's the margin: 0 auto 0 auto; in #container. but I'm sure you already knew that. Funny thing is, Opera on my Mac seems to load the page forever and pushes the container even farther when I hit stop. Lucian Teo http://tribolum.com/ On Feb 2, 2004, at 5:30 PM, Universal Head wrote: Another day - another rendering mystery ... http://www.universalhead.com/clients/jazzfactory/jazzfactory/ http://www.universalhead.com/clients/jazzfactory/jazzfactory/css/main.css Everything's working fine everywhere EXCEPT Opera6 (Mac). For some reason Opera shifts the whole container to the left ... Sheesh, who the hell uses Opera anyway ...? Damn profusion of browsers making life difficult grumble grumble ... Can anyone spot what's causing this? Much obliged! Peter Gifford Universal Head Design That Works visit 7/43 bridge road stanmore nsw 2048 australia call (+612) 9517 1466 fax (+612) 9565 4747 [EMAIL PROTECTED] site www.universalhead.com
[WSG] CSS Menu like on Dev-Edge - tutorial anywhere?
I've been trying to figure out how the nice CSS-based menu on the Netscape Dev-Edge.com works, but when I look at the style sheets they use, there are so many bits and pieces all over the place, It's totally confusing for me. Is there a tutorial anywhere that shows how to make this menu?Believe it or not, I have it working on a site, but I did a cut-and-paste job on it, and there's so many styles in the sheets I don't know what does what. I'd rather like to build the menu again bit by bit so I know what everything does. I've looked through Russ's CSS Listorial, and it's wonderful, but it doesn't show how the drop-down menu part works. (Yes, I know it's the js that makes it drop down, it's the css aspect I'm looking for help with). Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Programmer's Challenge
Ben, This is starting to sound like a holy war thread, so I'll try and keep things on-topic and as objective as possible. It exists. It's platform independent. It even overcomes the inherent flaws of browser "emulators" and "simulators." It's called Browsercam. You can even use it at http://www.browsercam.com/ But shhh, you aren't allowed to tell anyone. It also (to the best of my knowledge) doesn't preview content 'below the fold' (content that can't be viewed without scrolling), and doesn't let you preview behaviour of pseudo classes like :hover, :visited, etc, or the behaviour of JavaScript (yes, some of us do write accessible, minimalist user-experience-enhancing javascript which we need to test). It also doesn't (again, to the best of my knowledge) allow the tester to play with various user preferences, system preferences, and things like increasing or decreasing font sizes in real time to measure the effects. You could simply stanch the tears, salve the pain and save the effort by changing your mindset of pixel perfect in every browser, every platform. Why exhaust your time attempting to satisfy different 0.x% segments of visitors, when perhaps y% of your visitors will not appreciate _your_ design or purposely use technology that breaks it in order to achieve _their_ goals (eg. Google cache, assistive technology, ctrl+mousewheel.) Building a good looking standards compliant site that delivers its message across all browsers, all platforms, all devices without resorting to hacks or work-arounds is highly achievable. It comes down to how you choose to spend your time. I don't have a mindset of pixel perfect at all, but I do care about accessibility. Forget about design for a second here -- the hard fact remains that there are far too many bugs in today's common browsers (IE5.5 being my pet hate) to assume that "standards compliant = accessible". These aren't bugs that are only triggered when 'pushing the edge' of CSS2's capabilities -- they're regular, everyday, common layout and/or styling techniques that show up in some very obscure circumstances. I agree that pixel-perfect on 40-odd browsers is a complete waste of time, but I feel I still need to glance at each type of page in the widest possible range of browsers to make sure that the navigation, interaction and content is accessible to 'everyone'. BrowserCam can do *some* of this, but not all of it, as pointed out above. Justin French * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Programmer's Challenge
Who mentioned hacks? ;o) On 2 Feb 2004, at 10:55, Ben Bishop wrote: Peter, It exists. It's platform independent. It even overcomes the inherent flaws of browser "emulators" and "simulators." It's called Browsercam. You can even use it at http://www.browsercam.com/ But shhh, you aren't allowed to tell anyone. You could simply stanch the tears, salve the pain and save the effort by changing your mindset of pixel perfect in every browser, every platform. Why exhaust your time attempting to satisfy different 0.x% segments of visitors, when perhaps y% of your visitors will not appreciate _your_ design or purposely use technology that breaks it in order to achieve _their_ goals (eg. Google cache, assistive technology, ctrl+mousewheel.) Building a good looking standards compliant site that delivers its message across all browsers, all platforms, all devices without resorting to hacks or work-arounds is highly achievable. It comes down to how you choose to spend your time. --Ben "Telling me that I've made the wrong choice will not change anything, because there are almost no objectively wrong choices in this area.There are only tradeoffs." - Eric Meyer on his site redesign, http://www.meyerweb.com/ Universal Head wrote: app (must be OSX of course ...) that acts like a browser, but has a popup from which you can select a browser version and platform, which it then accurately emulates. You could then do all your previewing and checking within one browser app. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * Kind regards Martin Chapman -- Web development, identity and design. co-ord.com Limited 9 Tynwald Road West Kirby Merseyside CH48 4DA Tel: +44 (0)151 625 1443 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.co-ord.com -- * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] AOL in full CSS
AOL is now full CSS http://www.andybudd.com/blog/archives/000149.html "Like most big site makeovers, the first thing people notice are the sites problems. In the case of AOL, the site doesn¹t validate, a lot of the text is image based, the text is a little small and overlaps its containers when resized. " http://www.aol.com/ Russ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] z-indexing
Hi Simon, I had a play with the page you put up and have no solution (on Mozilla for Linux anyway) but just thought I'd point out that the z-index property is only valid for positioned elements - absolute, fixed and relative - and should be ignored on static elements. The code in your example may well have just been left over from experimenting with it but just thought I'd mention it ;-) Cheers, Mark Simon Jessey wrote: Hey, all. Does anyone have any good experience with controlling the z-index of objects? I am trying to implement something where an object (in this case, some Flash) that is absolutely-positioned with respect to the viewport (with position: fixed) can have content pass both over it and under it. My experiments have yielded rendering problems in most common browsers. Here is an example: http://jessey.net/tests/z-object.html I have hidden the fixed positioning from Internet Explorer, but it should still respect the z-index values. Simon Jessey -- mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] blog: http://jessey.net/blog/ work: http://keystonewebsites.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Programmer's Challenge
Peter, It exists. It's platform independent. It even overcomes the inherent flaws of browser "emulators" and "simulators." It's called Browsercam. You can even use it at http://www.browsercam.com/ But shhh, you aren't allowed to tell anyone. You could simply stanch the tears, salve the pain and save the effort by changing your mindset of pixel perfect in every browser, every platform. Why exhaust your time attempting to satisfy different 0.x% segments of visitors, when perhaps y% of your visitors will not appreciate _your_ design or purposely use technology that breaks it in order to achieve _their_ goals (eg. Google cache, assistive technology, ctrl+mousewheel.) Building a good looking standards compliant site that delivers its message across all browsers, all platforms, all devices without resorting to hacks or work-arounds is highly achievable. It comes down to how you choose to spend your time. --Ben "Telling me that I've made the wrong choice will not change anything, because there are almost no objectively wrong choices in this area.There are only tradeoffs." - Eric Meyer on his site redesign, http://www.meyerweb.com/ Universal Head wrote: app (must be OSX of course ...) that acts like a browser, but has a popup from which you can select a browser version and platform, which it then accurately emulates. You could then do all your previewing and checking within one browser app. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] PHP and webstandards conference
Hi all One for the Poms among us. I've been milling around the PHP.net site this evening and noted that 'pawscon' is on...http://www.pawscon.com/... in Manchester, Ingerland. Sessions look interesting... http://www.pawscon.com/sessions Looks like some nifty stuff including PHP with XSLT, XML, semantic stuff and and standards in general. Cheers James * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Programmer's Challenge
I suppose you could argue that Dreamweaver (and GoLive?) do this (but we don't use them right? ;o) ) I actually posted feedback to Apple for such an idea from within Safari... a web developer environment for us webbies! On 2 Feb 2004, at 07:13, Universal Head wrote: I was thinking today, what the world needs now (apart from love, sweet love), is some genius programmer to come up with an app (must be OSX of course ...) that acts like a browser, but has a popup from which you can select a browser version and platform, which it then accurately emulates. You could then do all your previewing and checking within one browser app. Imagine how much time and effort that would save!! Is it even theoretically possible? Peter Gifford Universal Head Design That Works visit 7/43 bridge road stanmore nsw 2048 australia call (+612) 9517 1466 fax (+612) 9565 4747 [EMAIL PROTECTED] site www.universalhead.com Kind regards Martin Chapman -- Web development, identity and design. co-ord.com Limited 9 Tynwald Road West Kirby Merseyside CH48 4DA Tel: +44 (0)151 625 1443 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.co-ord.com -- * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] Opera - hrumph - more like school play ...
Another day - another rendering mystery ... http://www.universalhead.com/clients/jazzfactory/jazzfactory/ http://www.universalhead.com/clients/jazzfactory/jazzfactory/css/main.css Everything's working fine everywhere EXCEPT Opera6 (Mac). For some reason Opera shifts the whole container to the left ... Sheesh, who the hell uses Opera anyway ...? Damn profusion of browsers making life difficult grumble grumble ... Can anyone spot what's causing this? Much obliged! Peter Gifford Universal Head Design That Works visit 7/43 bridge road stanmore nsw 2048 australia call (+612) 9517 1466 fax (+612) 9565 4747 [EMAIL PROTECTED] site www.universalhead.com
[WSG] Programmer's Challenge
I was thinking today, what the world needs now (apart from love, sweet love), is some genius programmer to come up with an app (must be OSX of course ...) that acts like a browser, but has a popup from which you can select a browser version and platform, which it then accurately emulates. You could then do all your previewing and checking within one browser app. Imagine how much time and effort that would save!! Is it even theoretically possible? Peter Gifford Universal Head Design That Works visit 7/43 bridge road stanmore nsw 2048 australia call (+612) 9517 1466 fax (+612) 9565 4747 [EMAIL PROTECTED] site www.universalhead.com
[WSG] More links for light reading...
1. Tantek (inventor of the Tantek hack) is doing an interesting exercise - restyle his blog every few days with the same layuot as some of the top 100 blogs, but with web standards. "Exclusive use of CSS for presentation. No table/gif/font layouts (unlike many of the top 100)." http://tantek.com/log/2004/01.html#d27t0120 2. Eric Meyer has redesigned his site: http://www.meyerweb.com/ He still has one of the best web standards interviews on the web: http://www.radionz.co.nz/digitallife/archives/series3/meyer.html 3. XML Basics and Benefits http://www.intranetjournal.com/articles/200312/ij_12_08_03a.html 4. Version 2 - a redesign contest using CSS based designs and valid XHTML 1.0 Transitional code. "Version 2 is a series of redesign contests. Instead of doing one redesign contest and that is it, I am hosting one each month of this year. Each month will produce three finalists, with one being crowned the winner. " http://9rules.com/version2/ 5. CSS Vault has moved. If you haven't checked it out, it is worth a browse through the Gallery - some fantastic sites built with web standards http://cssvault.com/ 6. Douglas Bowman examines an IE border problem - in great detail: http://www.stopdesign.com/log/2004/01/30/ie_factor_example.html 0 Thanks Russ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
