RE: [WSG] New Colour Schemer - draft - any suggestions?
G'day Brian, I'm assuming you're using a narrower monitor than mine, or lower resolution so your screen real estate is less than mine. I've now laid it out differently so it's not so wide. Also I've added the italics and heading text for you. g And now the tool will accept 3 digit abbreviated colours, although I haven't added checking to make sure the colour numbers are valid yet. Let no one say we don't listen at AFP Webworks!! http://afpwebworks.com/colourschemer/ Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of theGrafixGuy Sent: Wednesday, 31 March 2004 5:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] New Colour Schemer - draft - any suggestions? Looks good! Though for sake of presentation style, I'd have it layout the results in a more formatted manner. The results page looks ad-hoc if you know what I mean. Also, if easily done, I'd like to see header examples as well as bold and italic - but that is just me. Brian * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Layout 39% not 39%
Title: Message Hmmm, Try putting it into standards compliant mode and it's different, but still not correct. Also putting the style into the head section will help... Really can't expect anything good to happen where it is. Try margin-left: 9%; See http://webboy.net/jobs/css/taco.htm P From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Taco FleurSent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 5:30 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [WSG] Layout 39% not 39% Does anyone know why on http://development.content3.com/test.htm the left column is not 39% in width? The column has width: 30%: margin-left: 9%: Now if you look at the HR tags above this column you'll see one with a width of 9% and one with a width of 39% and they seem to be the correct width. Any ideas? Taco Fleur Tell me and I will forgetShow me and I will rememberTeach me and I will learn
RE: [WSG] Layout 39% not 39%
Title: Message Hi Taco For starters you cant have , within your statement i.e. it should be: padding: 14px 0 0 0; and I think you want the padding to be 9% from the left side is that correct? Cheers Jeff Lowder Accessibility 1st Ph: 02 9570 9875 Mobile: 0419 350 760 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: www.accessibility1st.com.au Blog: www.accessibility1st.com.au/journal/ DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any files transmitted with itmay beprivileged and confidential, and are intended only for the use of the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient or responsible for delivering this e-mail to the intended recipient, any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, pleaseREPLY TO the SENDER to advise the errorAND thenDELETEthe e-mailfrom your system. Any views expressed in this e-mail and any files transmitted with it are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of our organisation.Ourorganisationdoes not represent or warrant that the attached files are free from computer viruses or other defects. The user assumes all responsibility for any loss or damage resulting directly or indirectly from the use of the attached files. In any event, the liability to our organisation is limited to either the resupply of the attached files or the cost of having the attached files resupplied. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Taco Fleur Sent: Wednesday, 31 March 2004 5:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] Layout 39% not 39% Does anyone know why on http://development.content3.com/test.htm the left column is not 39% in width? The column has width: 30%: margin-left: 9%: Now if you look at the HR tags above this column you'll see one with a width of 9% and one with a width of 39% and they seem to be the correct width. Any ideas? Taco Fleur Tell me and I will forget Show me and I will remember Teach me and I will learn
RE: [WSG] New Colour Schemer - draft - any suggestions?
Mike, that looks a lot better! BTW I am running 1600x1200. Is it possible to add in an option for switching between a light or dark background or specifying a BG color - when you get into the off-whites, I can foresee a bit of a problem on the last column. (Just offering my input from a users POV) -Original Message- From: Michael Kear [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 11:57 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] New Colour Schemer - draft - any suggestions? G'day Brian, I'm assuming you're using a narrower monitor than mine, or lower resolution so your screen real estate is less than mine. I've now laid it out differently so it's not so wide. Also I've added the italics and heading text for you. g And now the tool will accept 3 digit abbreviated colours, although I haven't added checking to make sure the colour numbers are valid yet. Let no one say we don't listen at AFP Webworks!! http://afpwebworks.com/colourschemer/ Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of theGrafixGuy Sent: Wednesday, 31 March 2004 5:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] New Colour Schemer - draft - any suggestions? Looks good! Though for sake of presentation style, I'd have it layout the results in a more formatted manner. The results page looks ad-hoc if you know what I mean. Also, if easily done, I'd like to see header examples as well as bold and italic - but that is just me. Brian * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Layout 39% not 39%
Title: Message Hi Jeff, I have no idea how that got in there, I must be overworked. Took it out on (another page I'm working on) and no difference though. Hi Taco For starters you cant have , within your statement i.e. it should be: padding: 14px 0 0 0; and I think you want the padding to be 9% from the left side is that correct? That is correct, I want 9% padding on the left.. Cheers Jeff Lowder Accessibility 1st Ph: 02 9570 9875 Mobile: 0419 350 760 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: www.accessibility1st.com.au Blog: www.accessibility1st.com.au/journal/ DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any files transmitted with itmay beprivileged and confidential, and are intended only for the use of the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient or responsible for delivering this e-mail to the intended recipient, any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, pleaseREPLY TO the SENDER to advise the errorAND thenDELETEthe e-mailfrom your system. Any views expressed in this e-mail and any files transmitted with it are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of our organisation.Ourorganisationdoes not represent or warrant that the attached files are free from computer viruses or other defects. The user assumes all responsibility for any loss or damage resulting directly or indirectly from the use of the attached files. In any event, the liability to our organisation is limited to either the resupply of the attached files or the cost of having the attached files resupplied. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Taco FleurSent: Wednesday, 31 March 2004 5:30 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [WSG] Layout 39% not 39% Does anyone know why on http://development.content3.com/test.htm the left column is not 39% in width? The column has width: 30%: margin-left: 9%: Now if you look at the HR tags above this column you'll see one with a width of 9% and one with a width of 39% and they seem to be the correct width. Any ideas? Taco Fleur Tell me and I will forgetShow me and I will rememberTeach me and I will learn
Re: [WSG] Show/hide layers without javascript (was: [WSG] How to do some things)
Thanks all, I guess the many explanations explain just why I've never done it with pure CSS before. I'll go back to my javascript and have a coke and a smile. ;) On 31 Mar 2004, at 07:28, scott parsons wrote: Well it depends upon the exact behaviour desired, and the browsers you want to support, but something like this can be done with the :focus, :target or for win/ie the broken model of :active I wouldn't necessarily suggest that any of these methods are perfect, and would reccommend javascript but hey there are possibilities there s P.H.Lauke wrote: What you describe can only be achieved with javascript, if you want to avoid server calls and do it all in a single document...the page needs to keep track of which link has been pressed, for instance...something that CSS is not meant for... Patrick Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster University of Salford www.salford.ac.uk * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] :hover and accessibility
Robert Moser wrote: How do screen readers handle the :hover pseudoclass? The main reason I'm wondering is in regards to CSS flyout menus. Typically these involve changing a display: none; on the normal element to a display: block; on the :hover pseudoclass of that element. FIR was deprecated due to poor behavior of display: none; with screen readers, so I'm wondering how this technique fares with them. There are screenraders, such as JAWS, that uses WINIE. I assume that they will not read elements which are set to 'display:none'. Is the worst case scenario handled appropriately by making the top-level of the menu link to a sectional page with the submenu expanded, such that everything is still accessible, just with an additional click? That sounds OK to me. Another solution might be to position the element outside the viewport like 'top: -3000px' instead of 'display: none' (not tested). IMO, you can only ensure that it works if you try it yourself or if you ask people who use screenreaders. Maybe somebody has a link to a screenreader compatibility chart? You could also try to get answers on more specialised lists such as: Accessify Forum http://www.accessifyforum.com/ Web Accessibility Forum Mailing List http://www.webaim.org/discussion/ HTH Tonico -- Tonico Strasser ?:-) http://Tonico.FreeZope.org Contact_Tonico at Yahoo dot de Check out http://www.WebProducer.at * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] hiring a standards-savvy designer
Hi Kay, I wouldn't worry too much even if your designers think Fireworks output is a good way to go. For years, we used table-based sites. All of our designers were taught Fireworks/Dreamweaver. Starting January 2004, we completely abandoned Fireworks. All of our new sites are being produced using standards. All of my designers have accepted the shift in procedures with enthusiasm. They have all been reading books by Jeff Zeldman and Eric Meyer. I've found that most of them are picking up the basics of standards quite quickly. So... I guess what I am saying that hire a designer that does beautiful work. It's much easier to help someone learn standards than it is to try and make someone artistically talented. Christine -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kay Smoljak Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 7:53 AM To: Web Standards Group Subject: [WSG] hiring a standards-savvy designer Hi guys, At work, we're about to hire a new graphic designer, as our guys are flat out. We're looking for someone with some markup skills as well as visual design, and as I'm the nominated standards nazi I'm charged with making sure their html and css is up to scratch. As this is primarily a graphic design position, I'm not expecting any of the applicants to be too savvy about web standards already. But I'm hoping to find someone who doesn't consider Fireworks Web export a good way to create sites, and who won't be too hard to bring around to our way of doing things. So what am I actually asking? I'm interested in what you guys consider reasonable to expect from a graphic designer who also does some overflow html. What would you be looking for? What would you ask in the interview? Thanks for any ideas, K. -- Kay Smoljak http://kay.smoljak.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] CSS 3-col draft: Request for opinion
Russ, I'll appreciate if you can send me a screen shoot, please... thank you! Too bad, I was hoping it could hold... Any other browser/OS combinations ? Thank you all in advance. Carlos - Original Message - From: russ weakley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Web Standards Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 2:11 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS 3-col draft: Request for opinion Do you think it will hold? Or is it to clumpsy? Can someone tell me what happens in a IE/Mac environment? MacIE - breaks badly. Three columns end up one under each other - seems to be a width issue. Can send screen shot if needed. Russ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * $0 Bannerless Web Hosting, 10 POP and Web Email Accounts, more Get It Now At www.doteasy.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] hiring a standards-savvy designer
Have they ever used Dreamweaver without going into the WYSIWYG. Do they KNOW HTML? Could they code a site with nothing but notepad? - Jeremy Flint www.jeremyflint.com Kay Smoljak wrote: Hi guys, At work, we're about to hire a new graphic designer, as our guys are flat out. We're looking for someone with some markup skills as well as visual design, and as I'm the nominated standards nazi I'm charged with making sure their html and css is up to scratch. As this is primarily a graphic design position, I'm not expecting any of the applicants to be too savvy about web standards already. But I'm hoping to find someone who doesn't consider Fireworks Web export a good way to create sites, and who won't be too hard to bring around to our way of doing things. So what am I actually asking? I'm interested in what you guys consider reasonable to expect from a graphic designer who also does some overflow html. What would you be looking for? What would you ask in the interview? Thanks for any ideas, K. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] CSS 3-col draft: Request for opinion
Instead of one screenshot, how about 23 screenshots: http://www.browsercam.com/public.aspx?proj_id=55491 Click on the small screenshot to see full size versions. Russ Russ, I'll appreciate if you can send me a screen shoot, please... thank you! Too bad, I was hoping it could hold... Any other browser/OS combinations ? Thank you all in advance. Carlos * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] hiring a standards-savvy designer
Hi guys, [snip] So what am I actually asking? I'm interested in what you guys consider reasonable to expect from a graphic designer who also does some overflow html. What would you be looking for? What would you ask in the interview? Thanks for any ideas, K. -- Kay Smoljak http://kay.smoljak.com You should make up a test that starts with typical graphical elements that your company uses and perhaps a hand drawn mock up of a page. Have them design first in fireworks or whatever your graphic design tool of choice is the layout and then ask them to create a rough HTML of it. Then you can look at all the files during the remainder of the interview and have them explain their methodology. I've done similar tests to hire folks and it has worked really well in finding the skill sets I have wanted. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] hiring a standards-savvy designer
You should make up a test that starts with typical graphical elements that your company uses and perhaps a hand drawn mock up of a page. Have them design first in fireworks or whatever your graphic design tool of choice is the layout and then ask them to create a rough HTML of it. Then you can look at all the files during the remainder of the interview and have them explain their methodology. We do the same thing, with similar success. Note though that this might take some time if you have them do it in your office, because they will be in an unfamiliar environment. If you don't want to use too much office space/time/resources for this, you could have applicants start by doing a similar project at home and submitting it along with their resume and portfolio. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Unwanted Visitors
I think this is OT. Please forgive me. Today I went to check my site statistic for fun and have a look at the Links from an external page (other web sites except search engines). I saw a couple of suspicious links being displayed theresuch as companies who has nothing to do with web designing and adult sites. There is only one adult site being displayed in Feb and for the month of March..the number of unwelcomed links shoot up to at least 10. Why is that so? Am I being used for something I do not know of? Not knowledgeable in this site statistic area. Should I just ignore? With Regards Jaime Wong ~~ SODesires Design Team http://www.sodesires.com ~~ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] My first CSS project
hello! I have recently redesigned my business web site using CSS. I was looking for some feedback. The biggest obstacle I ran into was on the about us Page. I am wondering if I over used the padding command. When responding to use this e-mail address also! I am on the daily digest for this newsgroup. so there's always a delay when reading others responses. Thanks a bunch! all my best, Teresa * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] unsubscribe
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® Security. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
RE: [WSG] My first CSS project
Hi Teresa, Good going! Unfortunately, we can't evaluate your site if you don't give a URL ;) Leslie Riggs I have recently redesigned my business web site using CSS. I was looking for some feedback. The biggest obstacle I ran into was on the about us Page. I am wondering if I over used the padding command. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Show/hide layers without javascript (was: [WSG] How to do some things)
Nick I stand corrected... As I am a Mac user, where things are made to standards, I often forget that MSIE doesn't no how to render standards. ;-) ...just kidding. But we as a developer web standards community should proactively boycott MSIE. Leo On Tuesday, March 30, 2004, at 09:07 PM, Nick Cowie wrote: Seriously there is a lot you can do, but it will not work in IE without javascript. And seeing most people use IE, you might as well use javascript. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Show/hide layers without javascript (was: [WSG] How to do some things)
P Your right... I blew that one in the details. Leo On Tuesday, March 30, 2004, at 09:14 PM, P.H.Lauke wrote: but that doesn't solve the original problem as far as I understood it. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] New Colour Schemer - draft - any suggestions?
Mike I think it would be more useful if it had a color picker along with the hex number input. Using hex number input alone doesn't work for those who don't know the hex numbers they need or would like to browser color schemes. I have been using hex values for color long before the web existed and I still don't remember which values belong to what colors. I use a donationware program called iColors on the Mac and it is a great little single purpose color app but I'm not sure if it's available on the PC. It allows you to select any pixel on the screen in any app and will show you the color and hex value. Leo On Wednesday, March 31, 2004, at 01:24 AM, Michael Kear wrote: For my own benefit, I have been developing a colour schemer tool, and Ive put it on my web site for others to use, comment about, help me improve. There are lots of colour development tools around, I know, but I got into doing my own because all the tools I have known about use javascript and the scheme cant be saved. For example theres a great one at http://www.pixy.cz/apps/barvy/index-en.html but if you click anywhere on the page, or try to cut and paste the colour numbers, it changes the scheme and you cant get back again easily. The only way to record the scheme you work on so hard, is to get a pen and paper and write down all the colour numbers. So I started developing my own, so I can produce a chart for each site Im working on with the colours Ive decided on for the site listed out. Ive put it on my web site and Id really appreciate if you could go have a look, and let me know if theres any way I can make it more useful, any features I should add. (One feature Im going to add is to have it email the resulting plan to you when you click a button, so you have a chart to use as a reference). http://afpwebworks.com/colourschemer/ is the address. (note the Australian COLOUR not the American COLOR) Cheers Mike Kear AFP Webworks Windsor, NSW, Australia http://afpwebworks.com
RE: [WSG] Show/hide layers without javascript (was: [WSG] How to do some things)
From: Leo J. O'Campo [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [...] A good point... but if someone elects to turn off javascript they do it at their own disadvantage. *cough* accessibility *cough* Also don't forget that in some instances the specific setup/capabilities of machines is not up to the individual users (e.g. large corporates with draconian IT departments) Patrick Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster University of Salford www.salford.ac.uk winmail.dat
Re: [WSG] Unwanted Visitors
Jaime Wong wrote: Today I went to check my site statistic for fun and have a look at the Links from an external page (other web sites except search engines). I saw a couple of suspicious links being displayed theresuch as companies who has nothing to do with web designing and adult sites. There is only one adult site being displayed in Feb and for the month of March..the number of unwelcomed links shoot up to at least 10. Why is that so? Am I being used for something I do not know of? Not knowledgeable in this site statistic area. Should I just ignore? Referer spam... If you don't publish the refererring urls anywhere they yes, you can ignore it. Many sites (well, many weblogs) list the referers, sites that link to them, if you do this, you need to be aware of referer spam and put some measure into place to prevent displaying it. Pete * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] hiring a standards-savvy designer
The only way to find a designer that is sensitive to what's required with standards, accessibility, CSS-based layouts, valid XHTML, etc is to find a web designer with ALL these skills, even if you don't take advantage of them all. They must be able to hand-code valid XHTML in order to have an understanding of what's required. They must have some experience using CSS2 for layout to know it's strengths and limitations. They must have attempted to get a few sites upto 508 or WAG in order to fundamentally understand Accessibility. The bottom line is these skills *can* be *TAUGHT* to any new employee, so maybe all you really need to know is if they can hand-code HTML and CSS, and have an understanding and appreciation of standards accessibility? I think I'd just hire someone with ALL the skills, then take advantage of as much as you can -- over time your business will grow to take up all his/her skills. On 31/03/2004, at 10:52 PM, Kay Smoljak wrote: At work, we're about to hire a new graphic designer, as our guys are flat out. We're looking for someone with some markup skills as well as visual design, and as I'm the nominated standards nazi I'm charged with making sure their html and css is up to scratch. As this is primarily a graphic design position, I'm not expecting any of the applicants to be too savvy about web standards already. But I'm hoping to find someone who doesn't consider Fireworks Web export a good way to create sites, and who won't be too hard to bring around to our way of doing things. So what am I actually asking? I'm interested in what you guys consider reasonable to expect from a graphic designer who also does some overflow html. What would you be looking for? What would you ask in the interview? Thanks for any ideas, K. --- Justin French http://indent.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Show/hide layers without javascript (was: [WSG] How to do some things)
Patrick First PLEASE do not display my email address to the open list. Thank you. *cough* accessibility *cough* Unless there is a reason I am not thinking of, I'd think people who want accessibility would keep javascript enabled. Also don't forget that in some instances the specific setup/capabilities of machines is not up to the individual users (e.g. large corporates with draconian IT departments) Javascript has been around for a long long time, so I doubt there are many draconian IT departments not using it. And if they aren't... well my comment stands. Leo * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] New Colour Schemer - draft - any suggestions?
Yes, good idea Leo. I think theres a little flash gadget you can add to coldfusion pages that does that. Ill have a look for it. Thanks. Cheers Mike Kear From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Leo J. O'Campo Sent: Thursday, 1 April 2004 6:20 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] New Colour Schemer - draft - any suggestions? Mike I think it would be more useful if it had a color picker along with the hex number input. Using hex number input alone doesn't work for those who don't know the hex numbers they need or would like to browser color schemes. I have been using hex values for color long before the web existed and I still don't remember which values belong to what colors. I use a donationware program called iColors on the Mac and it is a great little single purpose color app but I'm not sure if it's available on the PC. It allows you to select any pixel on the screen in any app and will show you the color and hex value. Leo On Wednesday, March 31, 2004, at 01:24 AM, Michael Kear wrote: For my own benefit, I have been developing a colour schemer tool, and Ive put it on my web site for others to use, comment about, help me improve. There are lots of colour development tools around, I know, but I got into doing my own because all the tools I have known about use _javascript_ and the scheme cant be saved. For example theres a great one at http://www.pixy.cz/apps/barvy/index-en.html but if you click anywhere on the page, or try to cut and paste the colour numbers, it changes the scheme and you cant get back again easily. The only way to record the scheme you work on so hard, is to get a pen and paper and write down all the colour numbers. So I started developing my own, so I can produce a chart for each site Im working on with the colours Ive decided on for the site listed out. Ive put it on my web site and Id really appreciate if you could go have a look, and let me know if theres any way I can make it more useful, any features I should add. (One feature Im going to add is to have it email the resulting plan to you when you click a button, so you have a chart to use as a reference). http://afpwebworks.com/colourschemer/ is the address. (note the Australian COLOUR not the American COLOR) Cheers Mike Kear AFP Webworks Windsor, NSW, Australia http://afpwebworks.com
RE: [WSG] New Colour Schemer - draft - any suggestions?
Try this for a color picker that works on PC's. http://eyedropper.inetia.com/it will give you the hex values for any color you put it on. All the best, Thom Meyer ---Original Message--- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 03/31/04 21:09:30 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] New Colour Schemer - draft - any suggestions? Yes, good idea Leo. I think theres a little flash gadget you can add to coldfusion pages that does that. Ill have a look for it. Thanks. Cheers Mike Kear From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Leo J. O'CampoSent: Thursday, 1 April 2004 6:20 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [WSG] New Colour Schemer - draft - any suggestions? MikeI think it would be more useful if it had a color picker along with the hex number input. Using hex number input alone doesn't work for those who don't know the hex numbers they need or would like to browser color schemes. I have been using hex values for color long before the web existed and I still don't remember which values belong to what colors.I use a donationware program called iColors on the Mac and it is a great little single purpose color app but I'm not sure if it's available on the PC. It allows you to select any pixel on the screen in any app and will show you the color and hex value.LeoOn Wednesday, March 31, 2004, at 01:24 AM, Michael Kear wrote: For my own benefit, I have been developing a colour schemer tool, and Ive put it on my web site for others to use, comment about, help me improve.There are lots of colour development tools around, I know, but I got into doing my own because all the tools I have known about use _javascript_ and the scheme cant be saved. For example theres a great one at http://www.pixy.cz/apps/barvy/index-en.html but if you click anywhere on the page, or try to cut and paste the colour numbers, it changes the scheme and you cant get back again easily. The only way to record the scheme you work on so hard, is to get a pen and paper and write down all the colour numbers.So I started developing my own, so I can produce a chart for each site Im working on with the colours Ive decided on for the site listed out. Ive put it on my web site and Id really appreciate if you could go have a look, and let me know if theres any way I can make it more useful, any features I should add. (One feature Im going to add is to have it email the resulting plan to you when you click a button, so you have a chart to use as a reference).http://afpwebworks.com/colourschemer/ is the address. (note the Australian COLOUR not the American COLOR)CheersMike KearAFP WebworksWindsor, NSW, Australiahttp://afpwebworks.com
Re: [WSG] Safari 1 2 side-by-side? (a little OT)
On 31-Mar-04, at 9:28 PM, Hugh Todd wrote: My suggestion would be to install and use OmniWeb. It uses the Safari 1.0 engine. That's correct. The old Safari doesn't work because the rendering engine is actually embedded as a framework in the OS (so it can be used in other applications). OmniWeb embeds its own version, however, so they can do some of their advanced features. Note also that OmniWeb 5.1 (or whatever it ends up being) will use the latest version of WebCore. Andrew Dunning Web Inspiration accessible design http://www.webinspiration.ca/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Safari 1 2 side-by-side? (a little OT)
Justin I'm not surprised that Safari (Jag) runs in Safari (Pan) because generally Safari is forward compatible software. What did surprise most of us loyal Mac users was that Safari 1.2 (Pan) wouldn't run in Jaguar. I use OS9/Jag/Pan each on their own disk drive in the same machine. Leo On Wednesday, March 31, 2004, at 09:02 PM, Justin French wrote: Just upgraded to OS X 10.3 from 10.2 last night, and whilst some of the new features in Safari are nice, I still need the old version 1.0 and/or 1.1 for testing purposes, since there were quite a lot of issues. I copied across the 1.0 app from my back-up, renamed it Safari 1, and placed it in my applications folder. It opened fine, called itself 1.0x in the about menu, but the rendering engine appears to be Safari 1.2's, because numerous bugs I knew in 1.0 aren't there now (like ALA suckerfish dropdowns). Has anyone seen an article on this or managed to have Safari 1.0/1.1/1.2 running side-by-side on one system? PS: for anyone holding off on upgrading to Panther, I can highly recommend it -- I have a feeling Exposé alone will be worth the AU$229.00 in productivity gains very shortly. --- Justin French http://indent.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] New Colour Schemer - draft - any suggestions?
Title: Message Thanks Leslie. I did know that table didnt display properly in some browsers. Its a footer file that dates back to 18 months ago antique. Im rebuilding my site using a new CMS Im writing and a shopping cart Im writing, so I didnt pay much attention to that part of it. However I want to package this up as a free utility for coldfusion developers, and I have to write a new footer for that purpose. So I think Ill put it on the page you have been looking at too. My new site is going to be XHTML1.0 Strict if I can get it that far. Itll depend on being able to get a WYSIWYG inline editor thatll produce valid XHTML code. Certainly Im going to lose all tables except for tabular data (At the moment only one page on the whole site qualifies for that). This page doesnt have any tables either, except in the footer. Thanks for looking at it, and thanks for the nice comments. Does anyone have any ideas of ways to make the gadget more useful for design purposes? IN my case, Im so artistically challenged, I have to keep charts to show me which colours to use, or my work will end up like a rainbow (see an earlier page also my work but dates back 18 months - at http://www.hawkradio.org.au/bluegrass and youll see what I mean. I think Ill use that page as a before page in a design class. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Leslie Riggs Sent: Thursday, 1 April 2004 1:28 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] New Colour Schemer - draft - any suggestions? http://afpwebworks.com/colourschemer/ is the address. (note the Australian COLOUR not the American COLOR) NICE. Handy tool! One detail that I noticed while looking at itusing Firefox 0.8, Moz 1.6and Netscape 7.1,has to do with the table that contains the three images that appears below the two text input boxes. When I first opened the page, it looks fine, sits pretty, all centered and everything. However, after entering my two color choices, the page comes back with the chart (very nice, by the way, I like it) and the table does not sit centeredbelow the chart anymore. It's pushed off to the right,looks like it's on the baseline next to the chart. Opera 7.23 shows that table below the chart, aligned left. IE6 looks just fine, table below the chart, centered. Just thought you'd want to know. -Leslie Riggs
Re: [WSG] Thead closed : Safari 1 2 side-by-side? (a little OT)
Hi Justin Support for Safari would be more appropiate on a Mac users list. Posts about how Safari supports the relevant standards are ok. Cheers James Justin French wrote: Just upgraded to OS X 10.3 from 10.2 last night, and whilst some of the new features in Safari are nice, I still need the old version 1.0 and/or 1.1 for testing purposes, since there were quite a lot of issues. I copied across the 1.0 app from my back-up, renamed it Safari 1, and placed it in my applications folder. It opened fine, called itself 1.0x in the about menu, but the rendering engine appears to be Safari 1.2's, because numerous bugs I knew in 1.0 aren't there now (like ALA suckerfish dropdowns). Has anyone seen an article on this or managed to have Safari 1.0/1.1/1.2 running side-by-side on one system? PS: for anyone holding off on upgrading to Panther, I can highly recommend it -- I have a feeling Exposé alone will be worth the AU$229.00 in productivity gains very shortly. --- Justin French http://indent.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Show/hide layers without javascript (was: [WSG] How to do some things)
Justin To say that anyone concerned with accessibility should have JavaScript enabled **utterly misses the point**. Accessibility is about providing access to the content for the widest possible number of users, regardless of how they're accessing it. Hmm.. well Justin your missing my point. I did not use those words. My point was if a page was designed for JavaScript to be used, then disabling it, is to your own disadvantage. A perfect example is the steady increase of browsers and tools for mobile phones and PDAs... most of them come without javascript (or at least a very limited subset), Your perfect PDA example is why we use alternative stylesheets to offer content to alternative media. Web standards advocate that content be separate for presentation and I'd proactively add navigation to that. By providing content in a way that can only be accessed with a javascript enabled web browser, you're making you content inaccessible to all users. A point I have never personally disagreed with. In fact I never use Javascript for anything when CSS or server side PHP can do the same thing. You may not care, but *that* is accessibility. I don't know where this came from... Justin I am physically disabled and as a person with disabilities, I ALWAYS care about accessibility and not just on web pages. Your mouseover-javascript-piece-of-magic-widget probably requires the fluid use of a mouse (which ignores the fact that not every one has perfect motor skills), probably has tiny fonts that break the layout when enlarged for visually impaired users, etc. This is just outright insulting to me because I don't use JavaScript for menus, so it's not mine your talking about, and personally I think the size of the type on this email or at most accessibility oriented web sites, is way too small. ;-) Leo * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Show/hide layers without javascript (was: [WSG] How to do some things)
Leo, On 01/04/2004, at 1:49 PM, Leo J. O'Campo wrote: To say that anyone concerned with accessibility should have JavaScript enabled **utterly misses the point**. Accessibility is about providing access to the content for the widest possible number of users, regardless of how they're accessing it. Hmm.. well Justin your missing my point. I did not use those words. My point was if a page was designed for JavaScript to be used, then disabling it, is to your own disadvantage. And you're missing mine :D Usually disabling (or not having) JavaScript is not a conscious decision -- I know there would be a minority of technically knowledgeable web users who would specifically go into their Internet Options/Preferences and disable JS by choice, but this is definitely a minority. In most cases, my educated guess is that if JS is disabled or not available, it will be a choice made by someone else: - the useragent vendor (defaults to off, or not available at all) - an IT manager, department head, or some other paranoid management type - a 'power user' friend, colleague, who modified the settings for whatever reason - the owner of the computer (in the case of shared or public computers) As such, I don't blame the lack of JavaScript on the user. Therefore, any page which relies on javascript being enabled for it's functionality is inaccessible, and I blame THAT on the web developer and site owner, not the user. It's to the *website's* disadvantage, not the *user's*, because they've just turned away a reader/customer/client/friend. --- Justin French http://indent.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] *sigh* drop-downs
Hi all, I'm quoting for a client at the moment who seems to have her heart set on dropdown menus for the sites navigation. I've implemented such menus before, and am currently using a version of the Suckerfish menus [1], which is fine for a one-deep hierarchy, but it looks like she wants 3-4 levels of depth in the menus, which is going to: - significantly increase development time and testing time - decrease browser compatibility accessibility I would also speculate that menus with such deep hierarchy would confuse and distract users. But we all know how difficult it is to convince a client that they're wrong, especially when they see huge hierarchical menus on other corporate sites. So instead, I'd like to read up (and point her to) any studies conducted in terms of their usability in context of website navigation, perhaps even compared to other forms of navigation. I have no doubt that such menus ARE usable (we use them every day in Windows, Mac OS, etc), but as pointed out recently on this list (or another?), the menus in our OS are not *navigational* -- they're *functional*. I'm confident I can provide simple, smart navigation without them, but first I need to find some solid proof that they're a bad idea :) --- Justin French http://indent.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] *sigh* drop-downs
consider these multi level menus as a site map Do you need a sitemap on each page... is a site map useful on each page. you could easily construct a drop down menu with multi levels, but it may not be useful, or usable. But with a style switcher you could put a sitemap in the footer of each page. just a random thought Justin French wrote: Hi all, I'm quoting for a client at the moment who seems to have her heart set on dropdown menus for the sites navigation. I've implemented such menus before, and am currently using a version of the Suckerfish menus [1], which is fine for a one-deep hierarchy, but it looks like she wants 3-4 levels of depth in the menus, which is going to: - significantly increase development time and testing time - decrease browser compatibility accessibility I would also speculate that menus with such deep hierarchy would confuse and distract users. But we all know how difficult it is to convince a client that they're wrong, especially when they see huge hierarchical menus on other corporate sites. So instead, I'd like to read up (and point her to) any studies conducted in terms of their usability in context of website navigation, perhaps even compared to other forms of navigation. I have no doubt that such menus ARE usable (we use them every day in Windows, Mac OS, etc), but as pointed out recently on this list (or another?), the menus in our OS are not *navigational* -- they're *functional*. I'm confident I can provide simple, smart navigation without them, but first I need to find some solid proof that they're a bad idea :) --- Justin French http://indent.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] This is picky, pardon the anal-ness
I've noticed in the past a few times, but now more frequently, that people are replying to one thread but using that thread's same header to reply to other messages. I'm sure that the ones doing this aren't using thread mode in their email clients, but it does affect some of us. I don't want to read about CSS Columns in X site when I'm reading and thinking about accessibility issues in Y site. Please, when you reply to a message, highlight the message you are responding to, click Reply in your client, and only use the resulting window to generate a response to that one message. If you click reply on a random message, wipe out the contents and reply to another's email *even if you change the message's subject line* it will still associate itself with another thread of discussion. Sorry, had to get that out in the open :) -- Ryan Christie [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.theward.net * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] hiring a standards-savvy designer
Warning: rant. The very fact that this is even in question with any designer is an indication of how degraded the title has become since computers hit the industry. Design was and has always been about communication and functionality - my degree in 84-88 was 'Visual Communications', not 'web design' or 'making things look cool'. Another reason - excuse the plug - why the tagline of my company is 'Design That Works'. It annoys and frustrates me that the reputation and integrity of the design industry has been so ruined in the eyes of clients by the media (endless images of frustrated business people trying to contact their designers who are out skateboarding), software developers (buy this app and you'll instantly become a designer! No need to pay design agencies ever again!), the greed of the dot-com boom (I've been renovating bathrooms for ten years but I think I'll be a designer cause they make lots of money and you can work from home), fly-by-night colleges (Complete our two-week course and you'll be a web designer!) and the whole image of design being a cool and easy thing to do. End of rant! Peter On 01/04/2004, at 9:36 AM, Mark Stanton wrote: To the key character of a good web designer (apart from artistic talent) is that they respect their medium and their audience. If a designer shows any sign of getting upset about having their artist whims challenged by browser limitations or accessibility - don't hire them. x-tad-bigger /x-tad-biggerUniversal Head Design That Works. 7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore NSW 2048 Australia T (+612) 9517 1466 F (+612) 9565 4747 E [EMAIL PROTECTED] W www.universalhead.com
RE: [WSG] *sigh* drop-downs
Sorry mate, here's the URL: http://www.d.umn.edu/itss/support/Training/Online/webdesign/navigation.h tml#menus Cheers Jeff Lowder Accessibility 1st Website: www.accessibility1st.com.au -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Justin French Sent: Thursday, 1 April 2004 3:56 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] *sigh* drop-downs Hi all, I'm quoting for a client at the moment who seems to have her heart set on dropdown menus for the sites navigation. I've implemented such menus before, and am currently using a version of the Suckerfish menus [1], which is fine for a one-deep hierarchy, but it looks like she wants 3-4 levels of depth in the menus, which is going to: - significantly increase development time and testing time - decrease browser compatibility accessibility I would also speculate that menus with such deep hierarchy would confuse and distract users. But we all know how difficult it is to convince a client that they're wrong, especially when they see huge hierarchical menus on other corporate sites. So instead, I'd like to read up (and point her to) any studies conducted in terms of their usability in context of website navigation, perhaps even compared to other forms of navigation. I have no doubt that such menus ARE usable (we use them every day in Windows, Mac OS, etc), but as pointed out recently on this list (or another?), the menus in our OS are not *navigational* -- they're *functional*. I'm confident I can provide simple, smart navigation without them, but first I need to find some solid proof that they're a bad idea :) --- Justin French http://indent.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] *sigh* drop-downs
Well, at least your client wants tiered drop-down menus. My most recent client wanted, basically, a sitemap on the left side of every page in the site *AND* he wanted a horizontal top navigational bar in addition to it. My boss does wonders in dealing with fussy clients, and she convinced him that such a system actually makes navigation harder than easier for the typical user. After 2 (or may have been three) revisions, he was happy with what he was seeing. The convincing of the confusion of his navigational system didn't come from us, per say, (you know, the people that deal with this stuff on a daily basis) but by a few test drive users who raised concerns. While some people won't care what you say because they know best, they'll take their advice from a person who knows little if nothing of accessibility. Go figure. Suckerfish is decent if she absolutely needs the drop-downs feel. With 3 or 4 levels of navi, not only are tiers 3 and 4 going to reduce their hit count and/or annoy users for the simple fact that web users are lazy and want ease in navigation generally and not completeness, but the dropdowns won't come up at all for users without JS enabled. Without a second form of navigation, they'll be high and dry (if your client is using this as a sole means of navigation). I'm basing off speculation, but I'd also assume that 3 or 4 levels of navigation will not appear semantically correct to CSS-disabled browsers either. This will cause problems to the 4.0 crowd, though I care less and less about them daily :). I don't know what you mean by solid sources, since concern over this type of stuff comes from the very people who are members on this list, but if you look into Zeldman's archives and a couple of the other brand-namer's archives, like mezzoblue, maninblue, meyerweb, etc -- chances are they'll have at least mentioned something of this issue. As for my professional advice, I try my hardest to stay away from JS in general, but *especially* in a navigational sense. I believe all users should at least be able to navigate a website, even if they aren't capable of relishing its bells and whistles. Using JS for navigation will screw some people (a very small number, but some nonetheless) out of a positive experience of finding information. Sure, allow the page to render crappily and still be readable, but don't by any stretch *deny* a user his/er navigational abilities. -- Ryan Christie [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.theward.net Justin French wrote: Hi all, I'm quoting for a client at the moment who seems to have her heart set on dropdown menus for the sites navigation. I've implemented such menus before, and am currently using a version of the Suckerfish menus [1], which is fine for a one-deep hierarchy, but it looks like she wants 3-4 levels of depth in the menus, which is going to: - significantly increase development time and testing time - decrease browser compatibility accessibility I would also speculate that menus with such deep hierarchy would confuse and distract users. But we all know how difficult it is to convince a client that they're wrong, especially when they see huge hierarchical menus on other corporate sites. So instead, I'd like to read up (and point her to) any studies conducted in terms of their usability in context of website navigation, perhaps even compared to other forms of navigation. I have no doubt that such menus ARE usable (we use them every day in Windows, Mac OS, etc), but as pointed out recently on this list (or another?), the menus in our OS are not *navigational* -- they're *functional*. I'm confident I can provide simple, smart navigation without them, but first I need to find some solid proof that they're a bad idea :) --- Justin French http://indent.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] hiring a standards-savvy designer
Amen to that brother. I agree with Christine and most of the others. Even if I take a billion art classes and devote the rest of my life to honing art skills, I will still be horrible compared to a slew of others whose design is immaculate but whose technical side is lacking. You can teach people HTML or CSS. It may take a while, but they'll catch on eventually. Teaching people art however is much harder. You're either good at design or you aren't. A person with combined skills is nice to have, but in most cases unless your studio is comprised of yourself and one other person who sleeps during their work shift, mostly not needed. Hire artists for artistic talent, not for tech. When you need a developer vice-versa that and follow again. Dual-talent is great for a one-man team. You'll accomplish more stylish pages by working to each other's weaknesses. I relate this to hiring a video game programmer and then telling that person on top of all their languages, they have to conceptualize and flesh out their own game characters. Art is best left to people that have a knack for it. But again, anyone can learn to program. -- Ryan Christie [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.theward.net Universal Head wrote: Warning: rant. The very fact that this is even in question with any designer is an indication of how degraded the title has become since computers hit the industry. Design was and has always been about communication and functionality - my degree in 84-88 was 'Visual Communications', not 'web design' or 'making things look cool'. Another reason - excuse the plug - why the tagline of my company is 'Design That Works'. It annoys and frustrates me that the reputation and integrity of the design industry has been so ruined in the eyes of clients by the media (endless images of frustrated business people trying to contact their designers who are out skateboarding), software developers (buy this app and you'll instantly become a designer! No need to pay design agencies ever again!), the greed of the dot-com boom (I've been renovating bathrooms for ten years but I think I'll be a designer cause they make lots of money and you can work from home), fly-by-night colleges (Complete our two-week course and you'll be a web designer!) and the whole image of design being a cool and easy thing to do. End of rant! Peter On 01/04/2004, at 9:36 AM, Mark Stanton wrote: To the key character of a good web designer (apart from artistic talent) is that they respect their medium and their audience. If a designer shows any sign of getting upset about having their artist whims challenged by browser limitations or accessibility - don't hire them. *Universal Head* Design That Works. 7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore NSW 2048 Australia T (+612) 9517 1466 F (+612) 9565 4747 E [EMAIL PROTECTED] W www.universalhead.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
