Re: [WSG] Sportwear/fashion sites using web standards

[Nick Lo]

Via http://www.webstandardsawards.com :
http://www.esfootwear.com
Nick
Hi Folks,
I was just wondering if anybody can point me in the direction of a 
sportswear or fashion site using web standards?

Andy Budd
http://www.message.uk.com/
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Re: [WSG] Sportwear/fashion sites using web standards

[Lachlan Hardy]

Hill, Tim wrote:
http://www.onetruefit.com/ - Lee Jeans, and an interview with the design
guy http://www.webstandards.org/learn/interviews/rcarver/
His company has more in the portfolio section as well.
http://www.lookandfeel.com/
After reading that interview, I'm a bit dark on this...
Carver indicates that he did all the coding and programming himself. I 
find it interesting that neither he nor the interviewer make mention of 
the product catalogue, which is written in ASP rather than PHP (like the 
rest of the site) and uses tables for layout

What, so we just ignore that bit? It is a product catalogue and they're 
kind of complicated, so we'll leave that in the tabled layout that the 
shopping component we bought uses for a template?

I'm probably out of line here. I'm sure he had all sorts of restrictions 
that meant that sorting that out would put him out of time or budget or 
something. I would have accepted all of those things as possibilities if 
only he'd mentioned it in the final question. If he'd said, "Gee, I wish 
I could have standardised the output from that catalogue component, but..."

I've done similar work myself in the past, and I know it sucks. Surely 
that's why it should have been mentioned? I think that glossing over the 
tricky bits is hardly likely to help convert the stubborn non-standards 
designers out there. Even if it slipped Carver's mind, the WASP 
interviewer should have brought it up

I believe that as advocates of a system, we should address that system's 
problem areas as frequently as possible

Anyone agree with my mid-morning rant? What do y'all think?
Cheers,
Lachlan
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Re: [WSG] Good radio station sites?

[James Ellis]

Hi
I'd be interested in John Horner's comments on this, as he's a member of 
this list. Given the ABC is a government organisation shouldn't they 
really be fulfilling some requirements of the DDA?

I'd have thought making the feature image (Chris and Craig at the mo) a 
non background image would be a good idea (i.e so blind users can 'get 
the picture').

Nice design tho'.
Cheers
James
Miles Tillinger wrote:
Driving to work yesterday I heard JJJ talking about the site redesign.
I was really hoping that I'd find something standards-based but it
wasn't to be...  Doesn't validate at all and even things as simple as
alt parameters are nowhere to be found.  I thought that, being a radio
station, they might hold their sight-impaired listeners in higher
regard. 

Cheers,
Miles.
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Re: [WSG] title, can it be used on a label

[scott parsons]

ok, my bad...
I'm outa the office at the mo' . My version of safari is 1.0 and I 
remember that effect, I'll have to test later

s
Sage Olson wrote:
On Jul 14, 2004, at 4:46 PM, scott parsons wrote:
It is probably worth mentioning that not all user agents will 
represent your title in the same way (if at all), safari f'rinstance 
puts the title text in the status bar rather than a tooltip...

That's not so. Safari (v125.8 anyway) puts titles in a tooltip, and 
has always done so for as long as I can remember... I've never seen 
any browser do otherwise (at least Safari, Firefox, and IE).

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Re: [WSG] title, can it be used on a label

[Sage Olson]

On Jul 14, 2004, at 4:46 PM, scott parsons wrote:
It is probably worth mentioning that not all user agents will 
represent your title in the same way (if at all), safari f'rinstance 
puts the title text in the status bar rather than a tooltip...
That's not so. Safari (v125.8 anyway) puts titles in a tooltip, and has 
always done so for as long as I can remember... I've never seen any 
browser do otherwise (at least Safari, Firefox, and IE).

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[WSG] list of text resizing buttons on websites

[Hill, Tim]

Hi, I'm looking for 
examples of text resizing buttons on websites. For example on the smh.com.au 
site, for each article they have the buttons in the top right, for printing, 
saving and increasing, decreasing text size.
Can reply to me off 
list;
 
Thanks,
 

Tim 
HillComputer 
AssociatesGraphic Artisttel: +612 9937 
0792fax: +612 9937 0546[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 

RE: [WSG] Sportwear/fashion sites using web standards

[Hill, Tim]

http://www.onetruefit.com/ - Lee Jeans, and an interview with the design
guy http://www.webstandards.org/learn/interviews/rcarver/
His company has more in the portfolio section as well.
http://www.lookandfeel.com/


Tim Hill
Computer Associates
Graphic Artist
tel: +612 9937 0792
fax: +612 9937 0546
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Andy Budd
Sent: Thursday, 15 July 2004 1:33 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] Sportwear/fashion sites using web standards

Hi Folks,

I was just wondering if anybody can point me in the direction of a
sportswear or fashion site using web standards?

Andy Budd

http://www.message.uk.com/

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Re: [WSG] Sportwear/fashion sites using web standards

[Kay Smoljak]

http://www.onetruefit.com is the only one I can think of...

On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:33:08 +0100, Andy Budd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I was just wondering if anybody can point me in the direction of a
> sportswear or fashion site using web standards?

-- 
Kay Smoljak
http://kay.smoljak.com
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RE: [WSG] Web Accessability IE Toolbar

[Lee Roberts]

Opera says, "Opera has been designed to recognize and work with many
plug-ins that work with Netscape."

Then in the same paragraph Opera says, "If you don't see a certain program
listed here, and you would like to know if it works with Opera, please give
it a try! People often figure out how to get plug-ins working with Opera by
themselves. We also recommend that you visit our plug-ins newsgroup. You may
find the answer to your plug-in problem there, or you can post your own
solution for how to get specific plug-ins to work with Opera."

Further information, Opera says, "Before you install a plug-in for use with
Opera, you should set up your computer to show all files on your system,
including system, hidden, and dynamic link library (.dll) files. This is
because most plug-ins will install their own ".dll" files on your computer,
and these are the files you will need to find in order to use the plug-in
with Opera."

Interesting that Opera tells its users how to hack things to make it work
with Opera if Opera does not support it.  Again, proof that no plug-in has
been designed or developed to work with Opera.

All this information is available at
http://www.opera.com/support/service/plugins/.

The beginning of that page states, "This page describes how to get some of
the most common plug-ins to work with Opera, and why some of them won't.
Since there are thousands of plug-ins and applications out there, please try
to contact those who made the plug-in/application to find out if it works
with Opera, and how."

Interesting that you wish to continue to claim that plug-ins are designed
for Opera.  That's a major misrepresentation.  Opera specifically states it
was developed so OPERA works with plug-ins built for other browsers.  No,
plug-ins have been developed to work specifically with Opera.

Lee Roberts
http://www.roserockdesign.com
http://www.applepiecart.com


-Original Message-
From: Rev. Bob 'Bob' Crispen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 5:08 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Web Accessability IE Toolbar

The voices are telling me that Lee Roberts said on 7/13/2004 7:36 PM:

> Interesting concept there and I'm glad it works.
> 
> Problem is still the same.  No one made a tool for Opera.  You just 
> hacked a solution to make it do what you wanted it to do.  Without 
> your excellent knowledge and fine instructions the average computer 
> user wouldn't know how to do those things.

Actually, if you read closely, what I posted is a way to combine the already
existing and excellent web developers' menu by Toby Inkster, which you can
get at  and Rijk van Geijtenbeek's
blog menu.  I just included the link to my blog because:

(a) I'm a blog pimp, and

(b) At least one of y'all is going to want to put on both the blog menu and
the W3Dev menu.  I know, you *say* you'll never want to, and then I get
these whining emails: "You broke my blog menu!"

I hate to be so disagreeable (well, that's a lie, I love it), but in fact
there's quite a few neat-o tools for Opera, and with a little effort you can
find links to them on Opera's website.

Here's one  they probably won't link
to.  Opera gets a couple of bucks for having their search menus point to
some corporate search engines.  You can't begrudge them the money, but
there's others I like better.  Unzip this in your profile directory for
Opera 7.5.
--
Rev. Bob "Bob" Crispen
bob at crispen dot org
Ex Cathedra Weblog: http://blog.crispen.org/

Don't ask yourself what the world needs - ask yourself what makes you come
alive, and then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have
come alive. -- Howard Thurman
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Re: [WSG] title, can it be used on a label

[scott parsons]

It is probably worth mentioning that not all user agents will represent 
your title in the same way (if at all), safari f'rinstance puts the 
title text in the status bar rather than a tooltip...
I do like patrick's visual indicator idea, that dotted line is fast 
becoming an accepted method for marking help text for the user.

Ted Drake wrote:
Hi Everyone
I hate to keep flooding this arena with questions, but I can't find the answer to this 
one and it might be helpful to others.
We have a form and we used to use a popup window to offer more information about a 
field.  For instance, when answering the question Initial Deposit Date, if you weren't 
sure what to put in the box, you could click on the question mark and a window would 
pop-up (javascript enabled) or a new window would open with a deeplink to a section 
that would describe the answer.  Both of these are clumsy.
What I'd like to do is apply the title attribute to the label for an input or select item. for instance 



I've tried this out and it works in Firefox and IE6. When the mouse is placed over the 
input, the tool-tip window pops up with the information.In my dreamweaver, it sends 
caution flags, probably because it is not supported in multiple browsers.
I've looked on the W3C.org site and I don't see any mention of the title attribute 
being allowed or not allowed on elements other than images and links.  I also looked 
in the html/xhtml reference guide by O'Reilly.
Here is a sample: http://www.timeshareinsurance.com/v12/quoteform1.html
It validates as xhtml 1.0 transitional.
Thank you for your input (with or without labels ;)  )
Ted
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RE: [WSG] Good radio station sites?

[Miles Tillinger]

Driving to work yesterday I heard JJJ talking about the site redesign.
I was really hoping that I'd find something standards-based but it
wasn't to be...  Doesn't validate at all and even things as simple as
alt parameters are nowhere to be found.  I thought that, being a radio
station, they might hold their sight-impaired listeners in higher
regard. 

Cheers,

Miles.
 

> -Original Message-
> From: Mariusz Stankiewicz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 8:31 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Good radio station sites?
> 
> JJJ just revampted their entire site, but its 100% table 
> based. nothing that neat
> 
> Michael Kear wrote:
> 
> > Does anyone know of any decent standards-based radio station sites? 
> > I've been looking around lately for a project and I haven't found a 
> > single one that is any good at all from an accessibility/standards 
> > standpoint.
> >
> > It seems for the majority of radio stations they've either 
> let their 
> > promotions department go crazy and produce something totally 
> > off-the-wall in design terms, then tried their darndest to 
> force html 
> > to reproduce that on a screen, or they've gone to the other extreme 
> > and got Billy Jones from next door to do it, because he 
> does HTML at 
> > high school and he'll only cost them $50, a tshirt and a couple of 
> > free CDs for the project.
> >
> > Can anyone point me to any really professional, high-quality, 
> > standards-based radio station web sites?
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Mike Kear
> >
> > AFP Webworks
> >
> > Windsor, NSW, Australia
> >
> > http://afpwebworks.com
> >
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> http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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> 
> 
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Re: [WSG] Web Accessability IE Toolbar

[Rev. Bob 'Bob' Crispen]

The voices are telling me that Lee Roberts said on 7/13/2004 7:36 PM:
Interesting concept there and I'm glad it works.
Problem is still the same.  No one made a tool for Opera.  You just hacked a
solution to make it do what you wanted it to do.  Without your excellent
knowledge and fine instructions the average computer user wouldn't know how
to do those things.
Actually, if you read closely, what I posted is a way to combine the 
already existing and excellent web developers' menu by Toby Inkster, 
which you can get at  and Rijk 
van Geijtenbeek's blog menu.  I just included the link to my blog because:

(a) I'm a blog pimp, and
(b) At least one of y'all is going to want to put on both the blog menu 
and the W3Dev menu.  I know, you *say* you'll never want to, and then I 
get these whining emails: "You broke my blog menu!"

I hate to be so disagreeable (well, that's a lie, I love it), but in 
fact there's quite a few neat-o tools for Opera, and with a little 
effort you can find links to them on Opera's website.

Here's one  they probably won't 
link to.  Opera gets a couple of bucks for having their search menus 
point to some corporate search engines.  You can't begrudge them the 
money, but there's others I like better.  Unzip this in your profile 
directory for Opera 7.5.
--
Rev. Bob "Bob" Crispen
bob at crispen dot org
Ex Cathedra Weblog: http://blog.crispen.org/

Don't ask yourself what the world needs - ask yourself what makes you
come alive, and then go do it. Because what the world needs is people
who have come alive. -- Howard Thurman
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Re: [WSG] Good radio station sites?

[Mariusz Stankiewicz]

JJJ just revampted their entire site, but its 100% table based. nothing 
that neat

Michael Kear wrote:
Does anyone know of any decent standards-based radio station sites? 
I’ve been looking around lately for a project and I haven’t found a 
single one that is any good at all from an accessibility/standards 
standpoint.

It seems for the majority of radio stations they’ve either let their 
promotions department go crazy and produce something totally 
off-the-wall in design terms, then tried their darndest to force html 
to reproduce that on a screen, or they’ve gone to the other extreme 
and got Billy Jones from next door to do it, because he does HTML at 
high school and he’ll only cost them $50, a tshirt and a couple of 
free CDs for the project.

Can anyone point me to any really professional, high-quality, 
standards-based radio station web sites?

Cheers
Mike Kear
AFP Webworks
Windsor, NSW, Australia
http://afpwebworks.com
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Re: [WSG] setting width for s when inline

[Chris Stratford]

hope someone finds this discussion useful.

Yes I do!

I have also wondered why this happens.

I mean, because something is INLINE, doesn't mean it shouldn't be able
to have a set width...
I would think its more of a reason to set a width, because it is being
set inline with another element - so the width is important.??

I had the same issues, and always I end up forgetting the whole idea,
and just throwing away all the navigation code i make.

Thanks for the discussion :)

Scott Reston wrote:

  
  
  
  Tania - you're correct. The "display:inline"
turns out to be, er, vestigal and the effect works fine without it.
What I was worried about is why is "float:left" was allowing me to give
the  a width. But... with the "display:inline" out of the
way, the  is a block-element, so applying width is OK. 
   
  Is the issue that giving an element float makes
the browser treat it as a block element?
   
  Thanks for bearing with me, everyone... hope
someone finds this discussion useful.
   
  s:r

Re: [WSG] title, can it be used on a label

[Sage Olson]

I do that myself, and it works wonderfully. The "title" attribute is 
extremely well supported, including IE. BTW, you might want to give 
some visual cue that the user can hover over it... I put a faint gray 
line underneath such elements (marked with a span), and also bring in 
the help cursor.

On Jul 14, 2004, at 11:06 AM, Ted Drake wrote:
Hi Everyone
I hate to keep flooding this arena with questions, but I can't find 
the answer to this one and it might be helpful to others.

We have a form and we used to use a popup window to offer more 
information about a field.  For instance, when answering the question 
Initial Deposit Date, if you weren't sure what to put in the box, you 
could click on the question mark and a window would pop-up (javascript 
enabled) or a new window would open with a deeplink to a section that 
would describe the answer.  Both of these are clumsy.

What I'd like to do is apply the title attribute to the label for an 
input or select item. for instance



I've tried this out and it works in Firefox and IE6. When the mouse is 
placed over the input, the tool-tip window pops up with the 
information.In my dreamweaver, it sends caution flags, probably 
because it is not supported in multiple browsers.
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[WSG] Good radio station sites?

[Michael Kear]

Does anyone know of any decent standards-based radio station
sites?  I’ve been looking around lately for a project and I haven’t
found a single one that is any good at all from an accessibility/standards
standpoint.

 

It seems for the majority of radio stations they’ve
either let their promotions department go crazy and produce something totally
off-the-wall in design terms, then tried their darndest to force html to
reproduce that on a screen,  or they’ve gone to the other extreme and got
Billy Jones from next door to do it, because he does HTML at high school and he’ll
only cost them $50, a tshirt and a couple of free CDs for the project.

 

Can anyone point me to any really professional, high-quality,
standards-based radio station web sites?

 

Cheers

Mike Kear

AFP Webworks

Windsor, NSW, Australia

http://afpwebworks.com

 

Re: [WSG] title, can it be used on a label

[Patrick H. Lauke]

> I've looked on the W3C.org site and I don't see any mention of the
> title attribute being allowed or not allowed on elements other than images
> and links.

title is part of the core attributes which can be applied to pretty much
everything
(with a few exceptions)

http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/dtds.html#dtdentry_xhtml1-strict.dtd_coreattrs

Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively. [latin : re-,
re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
http://www.splintered.co.uk | http://www.photographia.co.uk |
http://redux.deviantart.com


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[WSG] title, can it be used on a label

[Ted Drake]

Hi Everyone
I hate to keep flooding this arena with questions, but I can't find the answer to this 
one and it might be helpful to others.

We have a form and we used to use a popup window to offer more information about a 
field.  For instance, when answering the question Initial Deposit Date, if you weren't 
sure what to put in the box, you could click on the question mark and a window would 
pop-up (javascript enabled) or a new window would open with a deeplink to a section 
that would describe the answer.  Both of these are clumsy.

What I'd like to do is apply the title attribute to the label for an input or select 
item. for instance 



I've tried this out and it works in Firefox and IE6. When the mouse is placed over the 
input, the tool-tip window pops up with the information.In my dreamweaver, it sends 
caution flags, probably because it is not supported in multiple browsers.

I've looked on the W3C.org site and I don't see any mention of the title attribute 
being allowed or not allowed on elements other than images and links.  I also looked 
in the html/xhtml reference guide by O'Reilly.

Here is a sample: http://www.timeshareinsurance.com/v12/quoteform1.html

It validates as xhtml 1.0 transitional.

Thank you for your input (with or without labels ;)  )

Ted

 
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[WSG] summary of text field size tag

[Ted Drake]

Hey everyone,
Thanks for all of the great information.  I didn't expect so many thoughtful 
responses.  Becuase our site wants to be as accessible and usable, I will go ahead and 
add the size attributes to the input tags for browsers that cannot access the style 
sheets.
---
Justin French wrote:
In my opinion, you still need to set a "default" width for the element 
using the size attribute, for those without CSS.  Yes, it will be 
overridden with CSS for 99% of your browsing audience, but it safer to 
put *something* in there as default, since you have no idea how a 
browser will behave without it.
--

I've noticed a proportional width works nicely for the css width property. I have 
noticed in my limited browser testing that the fields may never be completely 
predictable but I can accept some minor fluctuations.

Mordechai wrote:
To get around IE nasty habit of expanding boxes to the destruction of 
the layout, I set {width : 80%;} with success. 
-

I will certainly use the maxlength attribute in the input tags.

Thanks again.

Ted
www.superiorpixels.com
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[WSG] Sportwear/fashion sites using web standards

[Andy Budd]

Hi Folks,
I was just wondering if anybody can point me in the direction of a 
sportswear or fashion site using web standards?

Andy Budd
http://www.message.uk.com/
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Re: [WSG] Oh, the humanity!

[Art Grauer]

AMG has posted a response to the criticism of the new design here (amusing):

http://www.gloriousnoise.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=1992

Here's the text:

---

"Responses to the major user feedback issues â suitable for forums, blogs, etc. 

GENERAL COMMENTS 
We've been on the net since 1995 providing a free music reference
resource. We would hope that we've earned a little patience from our
users as we work through the transition to the new site and some of
the difficulties we're experiencing. We're a small company with small
company resources. While we're flattered by our users' expectations,
we are not Amazon or Yahoo! We're a small company from Ann Arbor, MI,
trying to provide a great resource for music fans.

SLOW RESPONSE TIMES 
We are experiencing some response time delays as we work to get all of
our servers properly balanced. Additionally, we will be adding server
capacity over the next week which will further improve response times.
While this site is bigger and more complex than and will be somewhat
slower than the old site, the difference once we get everything at
peak form won't be very noticeable.

SUPPORT OF NON-IE FOR WINDOWS BROWSERS 
Optimizing a site of allmusic's complexity and size for all browsers
and operating systems is no small feat. This isn't a simple
"brochure-ware" site of static pages. While we would love to optimize
the AMG sites for all browsers and all operating systems, we simply
don't have the necessary resources to do so. Despite some users
flattering comparison of our site with that of Google, Amazon and
Yahoo!, we are a small company with limited resources. So, we had to
pick the most widely used browser by our users (over 87%) to optimize
the site for and then work on compatibility issues with the other
major browsers as we go forward.

We are first concentrating on fixing some compatibility issues with
the Mozilla browsers, which are mainly visual, not functional. The
main Mozilla problem is a glitch in how tables are displayed. We're
hoping to have this fixed in the near future. We will also be working
to fix some compatibility problems with Safari (Mac).

We ask for your patience as we work on these issues. 

REGISTRATION 
The allmusic site remains totally FREE to our users and only requires
registration for access to new Premium Content. If you are
uncomfortable registering, we understand and invite you to continue to
use the portion of the site (roughly equivalent to the former site)
that does not require registration. But we would like to take a moment
to explain why we have intrduced registration for Premium Content. The
AMG websites are FREE sites that are marginally supported by only
advertising and product sales. To attract advertisers and retailers,
we need to provide them with basic demographic information of our
users so they can determine if our site is a fit for their products.
We provide this information only in the aggregate (i.e. 60% of our
users are male) and never pass on any individual user information.
Please read our privacy policy for more information. Without these
advertisers and retailers, the AMG websites would be out of business.
Registration is a common practice among free publishing sites such as
the AMG sites (i.e. NY Times, LA Times, etc.) that fund their
enterprise through advertising and product sales. AMG is in line with
common Internet practices and, as a good Internet citizen, zealously
protects the privacy of our users.

TAB FORMAT 
We realized when we designed the tab system that we would make some
folks unhappy, but we felt the trade off was worth it. If we stuck to
the one page approach it would limit our ability to add additional
information. That design approach (one page) just doesn't scale as we
expand content. And it's a real problem with artists with extensive
discographies. We think that once folks take some more time on the
site, they'll see that there is much more information available now
than there was on the old site. The addition of the Songs and Credits
tabs are both good examples of information that just wouldn't be
possible in a one page format."

---

I think it may be a case of a design team being in way over their heads...

Art




On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:50:04 -0500, Rev. Bob 'Bob' Crispen
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Just in case anybody asks you, "but how do you *know* the Allmusic Guide
> is lame?" and you don't have one of Scott Yanow's reviews handy, now you
> have the definitive answer. Just click! .
> Besides being insanely slow and buggy, the new AMG site has this notice
> in bright yellow at the top of every page:
> 
> Notice: You are accessing allmusic.com with a browser that is not
> currently supported. The appearance and functionality of the site could
> be impacted. allmusic.com is optimized for Internet Explorer 5.5 and
> above for Windows.
> 
> I mean, it's bad enough that they're launching an MSIE-preferred site at
> the very moment that everybody and his dog are jumping

Re: [WSG] Oh, the humanity!

[Chris Rizzo]

Re: [WSG] Oh, the humanity!    

I've always loved AMG so I took a look. 
Interestingly, the company has addressed some of the problems that have been 
brought up on this list including the slow response time at: http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&token=&sql=32:amg/info_pages/a_responses.html
Still I'm interested in knowing what they could have 
done to prevent the problems. But, it makes sense that the problem is a 
server issue and not a standards issue.
ChrisR 

[WSG] Re: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org

[Teresa Carroll]

On Jul 14, 2004, at 1:10 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

WEB STANDARDS GROUP MAIL LIST DIGEST

If you have suddenly been thrown into digest mode and don't know why,  
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From: Nick Gleitzman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:06:49 +1000
Subject: Re: [WSG] Oh, the humanity!
On Tuesday, Jul 13, 2004, at 11:50 Australia/Sydney, Rev. Bob 'Bob'  
Crispen wrote:

Just in case anybody asks you, "but how do you *know* the Allmusic  
Guide is lame?" and you don't have one of Scott Yanow's reviews  
handy, now you have the definitive answer. Just click!  
. Besides being insanely slow and buggy,  
the new AMG site has this notice in bright yellow at the top of every  
> page:

Notice: You are accessing allmusic.com with a browser that is not  
currently supported. The appearance and functionality of the site  
could be impacted. allmusic.com is optimized for Internet Explorer  
5.5 and above for Windows.
Uhh.. yeah. Had to see for myself, and didn't even get as far as the  
notice (was maybe going to send them a nice constructive email); all I  
got was "Error 2 Timeout". Outstanding. Maybe they've already pulled  
the site?

Nick
___
Omnivision. Websight.
http://www.omnivision.com.au/
From: Chris Stratford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:22:10 +1000
Subject: Re: [WSG] Oh, the humanity!
 Nah i see it...
 :S
 Ahhh terrible...
Off with teh person in charges head!
 Nick Gleitzman wrote:
On Tuesday, Jul 13, 2004, at 11:50 Australia/Sydney, Rev. Bob 'Bob'  
Crispen wrote:

 Just in case anybody asks you, "but how do you *know* the Allmusic  
Guide is lame?" and you don't have one of Scott Yanow's reviews handy,  
now you have the definitive answer. Just click!  
. Besides being insanely slow and buggy, the  
new AMG site has this notice in bright yellow at the top of every >  
page:

 Notice: You are accessing allmusic.com with a browser that is not  
currently supported. The appearance and functionality of the site  
could be impacted. allmusic.com is optimized for Internet Explorer 5.5  
and above for Windows.

 Uhh.. yeah. Had to see for myself, and didn't even get as far as the  
notice (was maybe going to send them a nice constructive email); all I  
got was "Error 2 Timeout". Outstanding. Maybe they've already pulled  
the site?

 Nick
 ___
 Omnivision. Websight.
 http://www.omnivision.com.au/
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 From: Rick Faaberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:48:48 -0700
Subject: Re: [WSG] Oh, the humanity!
On 7/12/04 11:22 PM "Chris Stratford" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent  
this out:

http://www.allmusic.com

Nah i see it...
:S
Ahhh terrible...
Off with teh person in charges head!

This thread will be closed real soon I'd bet, but that site basically  
p*ss*d
me off. Makes me redouble my standards-thinking efforts.

What an idiotic website that is.
Rick Faaberg
From: Lea de Groot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:26:10 +1000
Subject: Re: [WSG] Oh, the humanity!
On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:48:48 -0700, Rick Faaberg wrote:
This thread will be closed real soon I'd bet,

Makes me redouble my standards-thinking efforts.
If we can inject some content into the thread, it can stay open, I
expect.
What specific problems do you see their lack of standards causing?
What simple steps could they have taken to fix it?
What complex steps?
What would it have cost?
What reasons can you imagine they had for their current implementation?
Much more interesting than just giving an... emotional response.

warmly,
Lea
~ who feel very school marm-ish ;)
--  
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet  

Web Design, Usability, Information Architecture, Search Engine
Optimisation
Brisbane, Australia
From

RE: [WSG] setting width for s when inline

[Patrick Lauke]

> Is the issue that giving an element float makes
> the browser treat it as a block element?

LI is a block level element by default, so you can apply width, regardless
of whether or not it's floated.

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
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RE: [WSG] setting width for s when inline

[Scott Reston]

er. 
stupid question. an  IS a block element.
 
sorry...
 
s:r
 
-Original Message-
 
Is the 
issue that giving an element float makes the browser treat it as a block 
element?
 
 
 

RE: [WSG] setting width for s when inline

[Scott Reston]

Tania 
- you're correct. The "display:inline" turns out to be, er, vestigal and the 
effect works fine without it. What I was worried about is why is 
"float:left" was allowing me to give the  a width. But... with the 
"display:inline" out of the way, the  is a block-element, so applying 
width is OK. 
 
Is the 
issue that giving an element float makes the browser treat it as a block 
element?
 
Thanks 
for bearing with me, everyone... hope someone finds this discussion 
useful.
 
s:r
 
 
-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 10:50 
PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [WSG] setting 
width for s when inline
Hi Scott,
 
Well I'm a bit of a novice when it comes down to it, but 
when I initially added the "float: left;" I removed the 
"display:inline;" on both the  and the  as I found it 
un-necessary in the original code you sent. While it may be necessay in light of 
other elements, is it possible to remove it on the  class? Would this 
solve both the problem of working as you require and still remaingin within the 
proper specs?
 
Like I said, I'm on a learning curve with CSS & 
standards compliance so if I am missing something here I'd appreiate 
any clarification from Patrick or any other more knowledgable 
folks 
Tania 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Scott 
  Reston 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 11:49 
  PM
  Subject: RE: [WSG] setting width for 
  s when inline
  Patrick - Thanks for your detailed answer (and your 
  patience...)This would suggest that the fix I found exploits a 
  (perhaps temporary) flaw in the browser render engines. To recap for folks 
  just joining in, here's a short description of what I'm trying to 
  do:the code below should make the UL display as a horizontal row. 
  "number one" should be 100px wide, "number two" 150px (unless i've mistyped, 
  of course...)This works for me, but I'd like to 'get it right' and not 
  rely on an exploit... begin code snippet 
   number onenumber 
  twoul#example {height: 
  16px;margin: 0; border: 0;position: relative;display: 
  inline;list-style-type: none;}ul#example li {  
  display: inline;float: left;height: 16px;background-color: 
  #999;}ul#example li#number1 {width: 
  100px;}ul#example li#number2 {width: 
  150px;} end code snippet 
   for anyone interested, I'm carrying 
  this idea a step further and applying the Gilder/Levin image replacement 
  technique to replace 'number one/two' with icons. this is used for the 
  "email/pdf" links about half-way down the page at:http://www.capstrat.com/development/cs2004/template2.htmlsemantically, 
  an unordered list; visually, icons. the width-setting is important to getting 
  the image-replacement to work 
  properly.scott-Original 
  Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Behalf Of Patrick LaukeSent: 
  Tuesday, July 13, 2004 11:34 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: 
  RE: [WSG] setting width for s when inline> From: 
  Scott Reston> Does this suggest that > inline elements 
  cannot have a width property at all?Yes. Any browser that applies 
  width specified in CSS to an inlineelement (or even a block element that 
  has been set to display:inline)is not behaving in line with the 
  spec.> Can you clarify what the spec means by 'replaced'?http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/conform.html#replaced-elementIn 
  simplified terms, replaced elements are those that...heck...arereplaced by 
  something else when displayed. the IMG element is replacedwith the image 
  itself, INPUT,TEXTAREA,SELECT are replaced with UI elementsfor the form 
  widgets, OBJECT is replaced with whatever external pieceof "multimedia" 
  (god I hate that term) you specify.To take the example of IMG, this 
  has an intrinsic dimension (defined justbelow "replaced element" on the 
  link above) in that the image is made up ofa fixed number of pixels, so 
  the width/height are part of the image itself.Although it's inline, the 
  intrinsic width is then honoured in the display(but again setting any 
  width in the CSS is still ignored)Hope this makes some kind of 
  sense...as I'm starting to confuse myself here 
  ;)PatrickPatrick H. 
  LaukeWebmaster / University of Salfordhttp://www.salford.ac.uk*The 
  discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See 
  http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor 
  some hints on posting to the list & getting 
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  some hints on posting to the list & getting 
  help*

Re: [WSG] text field size tag

[Mordechai Peller]

Justin French wrote:
In my opinion, you still need to set a "default" width for the element 
using the size attribute, for those without CSS.  Yes, it will be 
overridden with CSS for 99% of your browsing audience, but it safer to 
put *something* in there as default, since you have no idea how a 
browser will behave without it.
If CSS isn't supported, my guess is that your layout will have bigger 
problems than the width of a form control.
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Re: [WSG] Keeping heights equal...

[Mark Harwood]

On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:45 , Joe Leech <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent:
>
>I think this is a problem 99% of people on this list have had.  And alas 
>there is no simple solution.  Alistapart has a great article that at 
>least makes it seem like both divs are the same height.:
>

Thanks joe, but im sure i've fixed this before! infact i know i have i just cant
remeber for the life of me what i did!








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RE: [WSG] text field size tag

[Patrick Lauke]

> It could be 
> that if padding, border and margin values are set (let's say 
> to zero) the widths of the different form controls may be the 
> same - or at least a bit closer ;)

I wouldn't hold my breath on that one. Form elements are notoriously
difficult to consistently style, as they are replaced elements
effectively under the direct control of the browser/OS. Worth a try,
but it's more than likely that fixing it in one browser will throw up
problems in another browser, and you'll end up chasing your own tail.

IMHO anyway,

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
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RE: [WSG] text field size tag

[Owen Gregory]

Marco della Pina:
>Internet Explorer 6 (Windows) (only!) in "Standard Mode" has a bug in
>its rendering engine, i.e. the CSS-Definition "width: 200px;" is wider
>for an input field than for a select box.

Mariusz Stankiewicz
>In FireFox .8 the two fields appear different in length on both quirks
>on and off.

This is not really a CSS bug, I think, more a difficulty surrounding the rendering of 
form controls.

As is well known, unstyled form controls are drawn by browsers using the underlying OS 
settings. This includes features like the arrow on the right of a select box and the 
way a form button changes when it is "pressed". In the example, only the width value 
was set by CSS. It could be that if padding, border and margin values are set (let's 
say to zero) the widths of the different form controls may be the same - or at least a 
bit closer ;)

Owen

-Original Message-
From: Mariusz Stankiewicz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 14 July 2004 10:27
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] text field size tag


In FireFox .8 the two fields appear different in length on both quirks 
on and off.

marco della pina wrote:

>Ted Drake wrote:
>
>  
>
>>I'm wondering if anyone has any more concrete opinions on the 
>>practice of defining width of input and select fields with 
>>css instead of the size attribute.
>>
>>
>
>There is a big problem with defining the width of input and select
>fields over CSS:
>
>Internet Explorer 6 (Windows) (only!) in "Standard Mode" has a bug in
>its rendering engine, i.e. the CSS-Definition "width: 200px;" is wider
>for an input field than for a select box.
>
>I wrote a small example on http://www.mdpnet.de/css-width/
>
>So far, I found no solution on this problem. Does anybody else?
>
>Greetings from Germany,
>
>Marco
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>for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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>
>
>  
>
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Re: [WSG] Keeping heights equal...

[Joe Leech]

Im attempting to have two 's that are floated (one left, one right) staying to 
the same height as each other
 

I think this is a problem 99% of people on this list have had.  And alas 
there is no simple solution.  Alistapart has a great article that at 
least makes it seem like both divs are the same height.:

http://www.alistapart.com/articles/fauxcolumns/
joe
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Re: [WSG] text field size tag

[Mariusz Stankiewicz]

In FireFox .8 the two fields appear different in length on both quirks 
on and off.

marco della pina wrote:
Ted Drake wrote:
 

I'm wondering if anyone has any more concrete opinions on the 
practice of defining width of input and select fields with 
css instead of the size attribute.
   

There is a big problem with defining the width of input and select
fields over CSS:
Internet Explorer 6 (Windows) (only!) in "Standard Mode" has a bug in
its rendering engine, i.e. the CSS-Definition "width: 200px;" is wider
for an input field than for a select box.
I wrote a small example on http://www.mdpnet.de/css-width/
So far, I found no solution on this problem. Does anybody else?
Greetings from Germany,
Marco
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Re: [WSG] CSS based redesign of http://www.mckinseyquarterly.com/

[t94xr.net.nz webmaster]

imports are now generally used for IE css bug fixes.
but thats a bit overboard.
Could you qualify this statement please? @import is used to import
stylesheets. We don't want to give members who might be new to CSS the
wrong idea here.
thats one valid point. 
but its a trend to put IE CSS fixes and hacks in a file imported by IE


Conditional comments have slowly been the new IE import.
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[WSG] Keeping heights equal...

[Mark Harwood]

Good morning people,

Im attempting to have two 's that are floated (one left, one right) staying to 
the same height as each other, now i know i've come accross this problem before and
im sure the way i fixed it was by puting a  below the two
floats.

Now is that the correct way to do it? cos if so its not working on

http://www.southtyneside.info/project_area/Leisure_project/final/

Im only having the problem in FireFox where it wont strech the height of the
#widthContainer 
 which holds the entire site.

Works fine in IE!

Any help would be great!

Mark Harwood
www.phunky.co.uk
www.zinkmedia.co.uk





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Re: [WSG] CSS based redesign of http://www.mckinseyquarterly.com/

[Bradley Wright]

> imports are now generally used for IE css bug fixes.
> but thats a bit overboard.

Could you qualify this statement please? @import is used to import
stylesheets. We don't want to give members who might be new to CSS the
wrong idea here.

The site probably won't validate either due to some ad-rotator rubbish
(

RE: [WSG] text field size tag

[marco della pina]

Ted Drake wrote:

> I'm wondering if anyone has any more concrete opinions on the 
> practice of defining width of input and select fields with 
> css instead of the size attribute.

There is a big problem with defining the width of input and select
fields over CSS:

Internet Explorer 6 (Windows) (only!) in "Standard Mode" has a bug in
its rendering engine, i.e. the CSS-Definition "width: 200px;" is wider
for an input field than for a select box.

I wrote a small example on http://www.mdpnet.de/css-width/

So far, I found no solution on this problem. Does anybody else?

Greetings from Germany,

Marco
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Re: [WSG] CSS based redesign of http://www.mckinseyquarterly.com/

[t94xr.net.nz webmaster]

/* @import url("template.css"); */
/* @import url("article-tools.css"); */
/* @import url("article-list.css"); */

/* @import url("store.css"); */
/* @import url("TOC.css"); */
OMG
theres organisational skills but then theres organisational skills.
imports are now generally used for IE css bug fixes.
but thats a bit overboard.
_
Cameron W (aka t94xr)
http://freelance.t94xr.net.nz/
XHTML & CSS Compliant Webdesigner.
Taupo, NZ.
Mob: 021 050-7304
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Re: [WSG] Web Accessability IE Toolbar

[Donna Jones]

Well  thanks everyone!!  I think I've got it. :-)
Donna
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Donna
web accessibility toolbar:
http://www.nils.org.au/ais/web/resources/toolbar/
with regards
Steven Faulkner
Web Accessibility Consultant
National Information & Library Service (NILS)
454 Glenferrie Road
Kooyong Victoria 3144
Phone: (613) 9864 9281
Fax: (613) 9864 9210
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
National Information Library Service
A subsidiary of RBS.RVIB.VAF Ltd.
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--
Donna Jones, 772-0266
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RE: [WSG] CSS based redesign of http://www.mckinseyquarterly.com/

[7 sinz]

I dont know the authors, but they import nearly everystyleshee used on the 
site

why not keep the styles in one file and import that ?
/* @import url("template.css"); */
/* @import url("article-tools.css"); */
/* @import url("article-list.css"); */
/* @import url("chart-pack.css"); */
/* @import url("coming-soon.css"); */
/* @import url("editors-choice.css"); */
/* @import url("featured-article.css"); */
/* @import url("freeform.css"); */
/* @import url("global-spotlight.css"); */
/* @import url("individual-collection.css"); */
/* @import url("interviews.css"); */
/* @import url("in-the-news.css"); */
/* @import url("point-counterpoint.css"); */
/* @import url("recent-issues.css"); */
/* @import url("research-in-brief.css"); */
/* @import url("top-ten.css"); */
/* @import url("client-module.css"); */
/* @import url("login.css"); */
/* @import url("privacy.css"); */
/* @import url("advanced-search.css"); */
/* @import url("popup.css"); */
/* @import url("help.css"); */
/* @import url("member.css"); */
/* @import url("article.css"); */
/* @import url("store.css"); */
/* @import url("TOC.css"); */
seems like they more than double handle the stylsheets
-peace

http://www.mckinseyquarterly.com/
I am using this site for couple of years and just recently they redesign 
site
with CSS and XHTML
Who are the autors?

NIce!
Regards,
Andrey Stefanenko
_
Play Love Hunt to win a $9000 holiday and find love!  
http://mobilecentral.ninemsn.com.au/mclovehunt/lovehunt.aspx

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