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**************************************************************** From: Nick Gleitzman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:06:49 +1000 Subject: Re: [WSG] Oh, the humanity!
On Tuesday, Jul 13, 2004, at 11:50 Australia/Sydney, Rev. Bob 'Bob' Crispen wrote:
Just in case anybody asks you, "but how do you *know* the Allmusic Guide is lame?" and you don't have one of Scott Yanow's reviews handy, now you have the definitive answer. Just click! <http://www.allmusic.com/>. Besides being insanely slow and buggy, the new AMG site has this notice in bright yellow at the top of every > page:
Notice: You are accessing allmusic.com with a browser that is not currently supported. The appearance and functionality of the site could be impacted. allmusic.com is optimized for Internet Explorer 5.5 and above for Windows.
Uhh.. yeah. Had to see for myself, and didn't even get as far as the notice (was maybe going to send them a nice constructive email); all I got was "Error 2 Timeout". Outstanding. Maybe they've already pulled the site?
Nick ___________________________ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/
From: Chris Stratford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:22:10 +1000 Subject: Re: [WSG] Oh, the humanity! Nah i see it...
:S
Ahhh terrible...
Off with teh person in charges head!
Nick Gleitzman wrote:
On Tuesday, Jul 13, 2004, at 11:50 Australia/Sydney, Rev. Bob 'Bob' Crispen wrote:
Just in case anybody asks you, "but how do you *know* the Allmusic Guide is lame?" and you don't have one of Scott Yanow's reviews handy, now you have the definitive answer. Just click! <http://www.allmusic.com/>. Besides being insanely slow and buggy, the new AMG site has this notice in bright yellow at the top of every > page:
Notice: You are accessing allmusic.com with a browser that is not currently supported. The appearance and functionality of the site could be impacted. allmusic.com is optimized for Internet Explorer 5.5 and above for Windows.
Uhh.. yeah. Had to see for myself, and didn't even get as far as the notice (was maybe going to send them a nice constructive email); all I got was "Error 2 Timeout". Outstanding. Maybe they've already pulled the site?
Nick ___________________________ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/
***************************************************** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *****************************************************
From: Rick Faaberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:48:48 -0700 Subject: Re: [WSG] Oh, the humanity!
On 7/12/04 11:22 PM "Chris Stratford" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent this out:
http://www.allmusic.com
Nah i see it...
:S
Ahhh terrible...
Off with teh person in charges head!
This thread will be closed real soon I'd bet, but that site basically p*ss*d
me off. Makes me redouble my standards-thinking efforts.
What an idiotic website that is.
Rick Faaberg
From: Lea de Groot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:26:10 +1000 Subject: Re: [WSG] Oh, the humanity!
On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:48:48 -0700, Rick Faaberg wrote:This thread will be closed real soon I'd bet,<snip>Makes me redouble my standards-thinking efforts.
If we can inject some content into the thread, it can stay open, I expect. What specific problems do you see their lack of standards causing? What simple steps could they have taken to fix it? What complex steps? What would it have cost? What reasons can you imagine they had for their current implementation?
Much more interesting than just giving an... emotional response. <g>
warmly,
Lea
~ who feel very school marm-ish ;)
-- Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet <http://elysiansystems.com/>
Web Design, Usability, Information Architecture, Search Engine
Optimisation
Brisbane, Australia
From: "Andrey V. Stefanenko" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:53:36 +0300
Subject: CSS based redesign of http://www.mckinseyquarterly.com/
http://www.mckinseyquarterly.com/
I am using this site for couple of years and just recently they redesign site
with CSS and XHTML
Who are the autors?
NIce!
Regards, Andrey Stefanenko [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Mark Harwood <WebMail> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Subject: Web Accessability IE Toolbar
Just incase none of you have come accross this bt i think its kinda kewl and handy...
http://www.nils.org.au/ais/web/resources/toolbar/index.html
Have fun! Mark Harwood www.phunky.co.uk
From: Michael Rainey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:35:32 -0400 Subject: Re: [WSG] setting width for <li>s when inline
It sounds like you're trying something I use on my site. I got the
idea from Dan Cederholm's tutorial, here:
http://www.simplebits.com/notebook/2003/09/30/ accessible_imagetab_rollovers.html.
I had to alter it to get it to work vertically, but had no problems with it horizontally, either.
On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:32:44 -0400, Scott Reston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:I'm attempting to build a horizontal menu that from an unordered list. My plan is to provide the list as text in the html, then use an image-replacement scheme (ala http://www.mezzoblue.com/tests/revised-image-replacement/) to swap out the text with images. It looks to me like image-replacement depends on me being able to set the width of the containing element, in my case, an <a>
I want the CSS to work without being altered, whether i include all of the <li> menu items or not, so I don't know how wide the overall <ul> will be when the page is actually created.
Is it possible to set width on an inline element? Can I get the same effect from some sort of absolute positioning (when i don't know the widths of elements)?
for instance,
<ul> <li>short</li> <li>this is a longer item</li> <li>and some other</li> </ul>
ul { display: inline; }
li { display: inline; width: 200px; height: 50px; background-color: #eee; }
in this example, i'd like to see that as 3 200px squares in a horizontal line...
any help appreciated...
scott reston ***************************************************** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *****************************************************
-- Michael S. Rainey Blog: http://raineym.dyndns.org/ From: Joe Leech <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:03:01 +0100 Subject: CSS Opacity
I know this really isn't strictly *standard* but...
I am using the css level 3 opacity property (and using the alpha filter for IE) for various content boxes to show the background image. However, I have just placed an image in the opaque block and it is opaque - but I don't want it to be. Is there a way to turn off the opacity of top image?
The site is here:
http://www.josephleech.co.uk/wordpress/
and the CSS:
http://www.josephleech.co.uk/wordpress/wp-layout.css
Thanks in advance,
joe
From: Nick Gleitzman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:11:02 +1000 Subject: Re: [WSG] setting width for <li>s when inline
On Tuesday, Jul 13, 2004, at 07:32 Australia/Sydney, Scott Reston wrote:
I'm attempting to build a horizontal menu that from an unordered list. My plan is to provide the list as text in the html, then use an image-replacement scheme (ala http://www.mezzoblue.com/tests/revised-image-replacement/) to swap out the text with images. It looks to me like image-replacement depends on me being able to set the width of the containing element, in my case, an <a>
I want the CSS to work without being altered, whether i include all of the <li> menu items or not, so I don't know how wide the overall <ul> will be when the page is actually created.
Is it possible to set width on an inline element? Can I get the same effect from some sort of absolute positioning (when i don't know the widths of elements)?
Check out Doug Bowman's Sliding Doors on A List Apart:
< http://www.alistapart.com/articles/slidingdoors2/ >
I've used it on one of my sites, and it's brilliant. The width of the <li> is determined by the text content of the <a> - once it's set, all you need to do is add <li>s with text links.
Nick
___________________________ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/
From: Mordechai Peller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:22:07 +0200 Subject: Re: [WSG] Oh, the humanity!
Rev. Bob 'Bob' Crispen wrote:
OK, slow, invalid, unaccessible. All we need is the lava lamps. Way to go, AMG!
Slow? Nah. Before I'd call them slow they'd got to speed it up a lot. I ran a speed report from the Web Developer Toolbar; the results were ghastly! (See below)
The real sad part is that they're actually pretty close to standards, believe it or not. They have a few tables, but I didn't notice any nesting, except for the footer.
I'd say the biggest flaw is is the abundant use of image based text. There are other flaws, of course, but most look like it would be simple to fix. I would estimate to make page standards compliant would cost less than saving in bandwidth costs for 3 months. (I'm assuming they get a lot of traffic.)
Total HTTP Requests: 50 Total Size: 167825 bytes
28.8K 65.24 seconds 33.6K 55.95 seconds 56K 33.65 seconds ISDN 10.44 seconds
Object type Size (bytes) HTML: 29258 Images: 121108 Javascript: 5641 CSS: 11818 Multimedia: 0
From: "Scott Reston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 08:28:38 -0400
Subject: RE: [WSG] setting width for <li>s when inline
for all interested (and thanks to everyone), tania had the answer that worked out for me. the <li>s need to have some float (within the <ul>) or they all bunch up.
ps - for anyone that's interested, i'm not quite doing the ala-tabs thing. i'm replacing a list of links with associated icons, replacing the text in the <li>s with images via css. presents like a text list to readers, etc. visually, it looks like a row of (differing-width) icons.
s:r
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 9:24 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] setting width for <li>s when inline
By adding " float: left; " to your <li> class all your list items will continue on along one horizontal line. If you leave the <li> width at 200 they wil be even spaced but if you remove this they will of course bunch up closer.
Tania
----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Reston
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 5:32 AM
Subject: [WSG] setting width for <li>s when inline
I'm attempting to build a horizontal menu that from an unordered list. My plan is to provide the list as text in the html, then use an image-replacement scheme (ala http://www.mezzoblue.com/tests/revised-image-replacement/) to swap out the text with images. It looks to me like image-replacement depends on me being able to set the width of the containing element, in my case, an <a>
I want the CSS to work without being altered, whether i include all of the <li> menu items or not, so I don't know how wide the overall <ul> will be when the page is actually created.
Is it possible to set width on an inline element? Can I get the same effect from some sort of absolute positioning (when i don't know the widths of elements)?
for instance,
<ul> <li>short</li> <li>this is a longer item</li> <li>and some other</li> </ul>
ul { display: inline; }
li { display: inline; width: 200px; height: 50px; background-color: #eee; }
in this example, i'd like to see that as 3 200px squares in a horizontal line...
any help appreciated...
scott reston ***************************************************** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *****************************************************
From: Nick Gleitzman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:43:22 +1000 Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS Opacity
On Tuesday, Jul 13, 2004, at 22:03 Australia/Sydney, Joe Leech wrote:
I know this really isn't strictly *standard* but...
I am using the css level 3 opacity property (and using the alpha filter for IE) for various content boxes to show the background image. However, I have just placed an image in the opaque block and it is opaque - but I don't want it to be. Is there a way to turn off the opacity of top image?
The site is here:
http://www.josephleech.co.uk/wordpress/
and the CSS:
http://www.josephleech.co.uk/wordpress/wp-layout.css
Thanks in advance,
joe
Wow, Joe - opacity issues aside, spare a thought for your visitors who don't have broadband! 400KB for your weymouth jpeg? I've built sites smaller than that... ;)
Nick ___________________________ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/
From: Marc Greenstock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:46:16 +1000 Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS Opacity
Joe Leech wrote:
The opacity property applies to the parent element so anything inside the parent element will also be transparent. I sugest taking the image element out of the translucent element and apply position:absolute to it and align it in the correct place.I know this really isn't strictly *standard* but...
I am using the css level 3 opacity property (and using the alpha filter for IE) for various content boxes to show the background image. However, I have just placed an image in the opaque block and it is opaque - but I don't want it to be. Is there a way to turn off the opacity of top image?
Marc.
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 08:12:56 -0500
Subject: RE: [WSG] Does anybody know an expandable vertical css/js menu based on uls?
Dan Webb,
What a nice contribution to our community. I really appreciate the way you packaged everything (css, js, html, example) into one clean, concise, clearly illustrative source. You do lovely work.
Thank you. --David From: "Patrick Lauke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:29:39 +0100 Subject: RE: [WSG] setting width for <li>s when inline
From: Scott Reston[...]Is it possible to set width on an inline element?
even though you now have a solution, I'd just like to answer this part of your question.
As per http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/visudet.html#q4
"10.3.1 Inline, non-replaced elements
The 'width' property does not apply. A specified value of 'auto' for 'left', 'right', 'margin-left' or 'margin-right' becomes a computed value of '0'."
Patrick ________________________________ Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk From: Ben Bishop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 23:31:36 +1000 Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS Opacity
Hi Joe,
placed an image in the opaque block and it is opaque - but I don't want it
to be. Is there a way to turn off the opacity of top image?
As Porter Glendinning replied to a similar post on css-discuss: "...the problem you're running up against is not one of inheritance. When you set the opacity of a container it effects everything that element contains. As far as any descendants of that container are concerned, 100% opaque now means whatever opacity was set on the container..."
In fact, Porter goes on to outline the issue and suggests ways to overcome it at: http://archivist.incutio.com/viewlist/css-discuss/39758
-ben From: "Patrick Lauke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:36:06 +0100 Subject: RE: [WSG] CSS Opacity
This may be of interest http://archivist.incutio.com/viewlist/css-discuss/39758
In short, you could avoid the problem completely by using a 24bit PNG for the background, rather than using opacity.
Patrick ________________________________ Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk From: Lea de Groot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 23:49:16 +1000 Subject: Brisbane Meeting Wednesday July 14
The July Brisbane meeting is on tonight (Wednesday)!
Agenda:
6:30pm - Informal start/Networking
7:00pm - Official start.
Marc Greenwood of Shock Media discusses his recent rebuild of Shock
Media's corporate site as a standards-compliant site.
8:00pm (approx) Open discussion of issues of interest to attendees.
Subjects suggested include:
- standards-based issues in the context of web
application frameworks.
- accessability and standards - where do they overlap?
- XML, XSLT, XHTML - what are the benefits of the step up?
Location is once again the excellent facilities generously provided by
ABN AMRO Morgans at:
Riverside Centre
Level 29, 123 Eagle Street Brisbane
(WhereIS Map -
http://www.whereis.com.au/whereis/mapping/geocodeAddress.do? streetNumber=123&streetName=Eagle&suburb=Brisbane&state=Queensland
)
For those who had forgotten about it, its not too late to RSVP! (Or just turn up ;))
warmly, Lea -- Lea de Groot From: Joe Leech <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:17:21 +0100 Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS Opacity
Drat,
Not an easy solution, will go down the PNG route, looks complicated. Thanks for your help everyone.
joe
400KB for your weymouth jpeg?
ps yep Nick the image is huge, just used html to resize (and god don't I feel dirty for doing it! ) when I go live it'll be much, much smaller
From: "Scott Reston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:41:24 -0400 Subject: RE: [WSG] setting width for <li>s when inline
Thanks for the additional information. I'm not sure that I understand the "fine point", though. Does this suggest that inline elements cannot have a width property at all? I read this to say "If you don't specify left, right, margin-left, or margin-right, the default value is 0."
(Incidentally, I've adopted the habit of setting margin and padding to 0 rather than trusting the browser defaults.)
Can you clarify what the spec means by 'replaced'?
Thanks... slowly getting my head around this.
s:r
-----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Patrick Lauke Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 9:30 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] setting width for <li>s when inline
From: Scott Reston[...]Is it possible to set width on an inline element?
even though you now have a solution, I'd just like to answer this part of your question.
As per http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/visudet.html#q4
"10.3.1 Inline, non-replaced elements
The 'width' property does not apply. A specified value of 'auto' for 'left', 'right', 'margin-left' or 'margin-right' becomes a computed value of '0'."
Patrick ________________________________ Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk ***************************************************** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *****************************************************
From: "Lee Roberts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:46:44 -0500 Subject: RE: [WSG] Web Accessability IE Toolbar
Egads!!!
Just when we're all talking about giving up on IE and using something that
really works we get another group of programmers building something for IE.
Although I'd like to give it a shot and provide them some feedback, I won't
touch it because it's IE-based. It's bad enough everyone thinks they need
to do it, but for an accessibility group to do it I'm flabbergasted.
Those that try it can provide feedback. I'd love to know what you think.
Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com
-----Original Message----- From: Mark Harwood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 2:29 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] Web Accessability IE Toolbar
Just incase none of you have come accross this bt i think its kinda kewl and
handy...
http://www.nils.org.au/ais/web/resources/toolbar/index.html
Have fun! Mark Harwood www.phunky.co.uk
***************************************************** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *****************************************************
From: "Scott Reston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:08:47 -0400 Subject: RE: [WSG] Web Accessability IE Toolbar
right, but you're TESTING on IE, aren't you? it's nice to have a tool similar to the ff/moz toolbar when you're trying to figure out 'just what the heck is IE thinking?'.
thanks Mark.
s:r
ps - better to take issue with the semantic use of 'kewl', no?
-----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Lee Roberts Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 10:47 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] Web Accessability IE Toolbar
Egads!!!
Just when we're all talking about giving up on IE and using something that
really works we get another group of programmers building something for IE.
Although I'd like to give it a shot and provide them some feedback, I won't
touch it because it's IE-based. It's bad enough everyone thinks they need
to do it, but for an accessibility group to do it I'm flabbergasted.
Those that try it can provide feedback. I'd love to know what you think.
Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com
-----Original Message----- From: Mark Harwood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 2:29 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] Web Accessability IE Toolbar
Just incase none of you have come accross this bt i think its kinda kewl and
handy...
http://www.nils.org.au/ais/web/resources/toolbar/index.html
Have fun! Mark Harwood www.phunky.co.uk
***************************************************** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *****************************************************
***************************************************** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *****************************************************
From: "Patrick Lauke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:23:28 +0100 Subject: RE: [WSG] Web Accessability IE Toolbar
From: Lee Roberts[...]It's bad enough everyone thinks they need to do it, but for an accessibility group to do it I'm flabbergasted.
most current screenreaders / assistive technologie hook into IE in some way
to provide web browsing. so it's still a harsh reality that some user groups
WILL have to use IE, and developers need to therefore at least test their
pages in this browser. offering this toolbar to the developers just makes
life a little easier...now if i have a page open in IE i can do most of my
validation etc there as well, rather than having to copy the URL and paste it
into firefox, to take advantage of the web developer extension.
and yes, some functions - like the "colour" ones, which - i believe - use
IE's proprietary filters to simulate b/w display etc - are very useful and not
directly replicated in other toolbars (Mozilla/Firefox ones or otherwise).
see it as another one of many tools available to developers, not as a social
commentary or a "validation" of IE's merits.
Patrick ________________________________ Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk From: "Ted Drake" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 08:30:07 -0700 Subject: standards badges
there is a good posting at the following web site about posting our badges of honor for valid web sites:
http://www.stuffandnonsense.co.uk/archives/ wearing_badges_is_not_enough.html
I like his suggestion to send people to an internal page that describes the accessibility attributes of the site. What standards are and how they will benefit. He suggests this is better than sending them to cynthia or bobby or even worse a dry w3c.com page.
Check out the sample text included in the post.
Ted From: "Patrick Lauke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:34:19 +0100 Subject: RE: [WSG] setting width for <li>s when inline
From: Scott Reston
Does this suggest that inline elements cannot have a width property at all?
Yes. Any browser that applies width specified in CSS to an inline element (or even a block element that has been set to display:inline) is not behaving in line with the spec.
Can you clarify what the spec means by 'replaced'?
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/conform.html#replaced-element
In simplified terms, replaced elements are those that...heck...are
replaced by something else when displayed. the IMG element is replaced
with the image itself, INPUT,TEXTAREA,SELECT are replaced with UI elements
for the form widgets, OBJECT is replaced with whatever external piece
of "multimedia" (god I hate that term) you specify.
To take the example of IMG, this has an intrinsic dimension (defined just
below "replaced element" on the link above) in that the image is made up of
a fixed number of pixels, so the width/height are part of the image itself.
Although it's inline, the intrinsic width is then honoured in the display
(but again setting any width in the CSS is still ignored)
Hope this makes some kind of sense...as I'm starting to confuse myself here ;)
Patrick ________________________________ Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk From: "Scott Reston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:49:50 -0400 Subject: RE: [WSG] setting width for <li>s when inline
Patrick - Thanks for your detailed answer (and your patience...)
This would suggest that the fix I found exploits a (perhaps temporary) flaw in the browser render engines. To recap for folks just joining in, here's a short description of what I'm trying to do:
the code below should make the UL display as a horizontal row. "number one" should be 100px wide, "number two" 150px (unless i've mistyped, of course...)
This works for me, but I'd like to 'get it right' and not rely on an exploit...
======================== begin code snippet ======================== <ul id="example"> <li id="number1">number one</li> <li id="number2">number two</li> </ul>
ul#example { height: 16px; margin: 0; border: 0; position: relative; display: inline; list-style-type: none; }
ul#example li { display: inline; float: left; height: 16px; background-color: #999; }
ul#example li#number1 { width: 100px; }
ul#example li#number2 { width: 150px; }
======================== end code snippet ========================
for anyone interested, I'm carrying this idea a step further and applying the Gilder/Levin image replacement technique to replace 'number one/two' with icons. this is used for the "email/pdf" links about half-way down the page at:
http://www.capstrat.com/development/cs2004/template2.html
semantically, an unordered list; visually, icons. the width-setting is important to getting the image-replacement to work properly.
scott
-----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Patrick Lauke Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 11:34 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] setting width for <li>s when inline
From: Scott Reston
Does this suggest that inline elements cannot have a width property at all?
Yes. Any browser that applies width specified in CSS to an inline element (or even a block element that has been set to display:inline) is not behaving in line with the spec.
Can you clarify what the spec means by 'replaced'?
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/conform.html#replaced-element
In simplified terms, replaced elements are those that...heck...are
replaced by something else when displayed. the IMG element is replaced
with the image itself, INPUT,TEXTAREA,SELECT are replaced with UI elements
for the form widgets, OBJECT is replaced with whatever external piece
of "multimedia" (god I hate that term) you specify.
To take the example of IMG, this has an intrinsic dimension (defined just
below "replaced element" on the link above) in that the image is made up of
a fixed number of pixels, so the width/height are part of the image itself.
Although it's inline, the intrinsic width is then honoured in the display
(but again setting any width in the CSS is still ignored)
Hope this makes some kind of sense...as I'm starting to confuse myself here ;)
Patrick ________________________________ Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk ***************************************************** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *****************************************************
From: "Lee Roberts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:15:03 -0500 Subject: RE: [WSG] standards badges
Without even reading what the person says, I will agree.
The consumer has no idea what we're talking about when it comes to accessibility. Linking to any accessibility validator simply fails to provide the information people want and need. They want and need to be educated.
Creating an accessibility policy can be simple or it can be as hard as you
want. But, you can't simply state that you developed your web site so it
meets WAI A, AA or AAA or Section 508. People don't understand that and
definitely don't understand the language developers use.
Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com
-----Original Message----- From: Ted Drake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 9:30 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] standards badges
there is a good posting at the following web site about posting our badges
of honor for valid web sites:
http://www.stuffandnonsense.co.uk/archives/ wearing_badges_is_not_enough.html
I like his suggestion to send people to an internal page that describes the
accessibility attributes of the site. What standards are and how they will
benefit. He suggests this is better than sending them to cynthia or bobby
or even worse a dry w3c.com page.
Check out the sample text included in the post.
Ted ***************************************************** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *****************************************************
From: "Lee Roberts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:28:05 -0500 Subject: RE: [WSG] Web Accessability IE Toolbar
Regardless of what the AT supports or not makes no difference in what browsers toolbar developers can support.
Here's why they don't support any other browser:
IE is a fixed solution with very little change. IE6 came out in 2001 and
has had only one service pack release in three years. SP2 is due out soon,
but no one knows when it will be out.
The Gecko based browsers are fluid due to their open source nature. Opera
could be easily supported, but no one makes tools for that small group.
Safari could be supported, but I don't know of any company that adds plug-in
toolbars for it either.
Thanks, Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com
-----Original Message----- From: Patrick Lauke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 9:23 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] Web Accessability IE Toolbar
From: Lee Roberts[...]It's bad enough everyone thinks they need to do it, but for an accessibility group to do it I'm flabbergasted.
most current screenreaders / assistive technologie hook into IE in some way
to provide web browsing. so it's still a harsh reality that some user groups
WILL have to use IE, and developers need to therefore at least test their
pages in this browser. offering this toolbar to the developers just makes
life a little easier...now if i have a page open in IE i can do most of my
validation etc there as well, rather than having to copy the URL and paste
it into firefox, to take advantage of the web developer extension.
and yes, some functions - like the "colour" ones, which - i believe - use
IE's proprietary filters to simulate b/w display etc - are very useful and
not directly replicated in other toolbars (Mozilla/Firefox ones or
otherwise).
see it as another one of many tools available to developers, not as a social
commentary or a "validation" of IE's merits.
Patrick ________________________________ Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk ***************************************************** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *****************************************************
From: "Ted Drake" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:13:25 -0700 Subject: text field size tag
In the 5th edition of O'Reilly's HTML and XHTML the definitive guide, they suggest listing a size and max length for the text input field. I would like to define the width with css and leave out the size attribute on my input fields. I'm trying to remove as much styling from our forms as possible and this works in my testing so far.
I'm wondering if anyone has any more concrete opinions on the practice of defining width of input and select fields with css instead of the size attribute.
Thanks Ted From: "Patrick H. Lauke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:01:08 +0100 Subject: Re: [WSG] text field size tag
I'd say that the size is an intrinsic dimension of the input element, and -
similar to what
happens with images - it's ok to have it in your xhtml. You can still use
css in addition
to it. But I think at the end of the day it comes down to preference...
Patrick H. Lauke
_______________________________________________________________________ ___
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively. [latin : re-,
re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
http://www.splintered.co.uk | http://www.photographia.co.uk |
http://redux.deviantart.com
From: "Rev. Bob 'Bob' Crispen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:58:27 -0500 Subject: Re: [WSG] Web Accessability IE Toolbar
The voices are telling me that Lee Roberts said on 7/13/2004 11:28 AM:
The Gecko based browsers are fluid due to their open source nature. Opera
could be easily supported, but no one makes tools for that small group.
Au contraire: <http://blog.crispen.org/archives/000302.html> describes hot to install the w3-dev menu and the blogging menu.
--
Rev. Bob "Bob" Crispen
bob at crispen dot org
Ex Cathedra Weblog: http://blog.crispen.org/
Don't ask yourself what the world needs - ask yourself what makes you come alive, and then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive. -- Howard Thurman From: "olajide olaolorun" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:52:37 -0400 Subject: CSS DIV & CENTERS
Hi, I wanted to know how I can center a CSS DIV that uses the X and Y scale...
<image.tiff>Personal Playgrounds: Empire X - http://www.empirex.net Olajide Olaolorun - http://www.olajideolaolorun.com Business Related: Triple O, L.L.C. - http:// - coming soon Triple O, Labs - http://www.tripleolabs.com Triple O, Studios - http://www.tripleostudios.com Others: Uniform Server - http:// - coming soon
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! From: Mordechai Peller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:53:00 +0200
Subject: Re: [WSG] text field size tag
Ted Drake wrote:
listing a size and max length for the text input field. I would like to define the width with css and leave out the size attribute on my input fields.To get around IE nasty habit of expanding boxes to the destruction of the layout, I set {width : 80%;} with success. The attribute "size" is equivalent to width for all practical purposes. Since this is presentation, it belongs in the CSS.
The "maxlength" is another story; it's the maximum number of character the field will except, and therefor nothing to due with presentation.
From: "Lee Roberts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:36:35 -0500
Subject: RE: [WSG] Web Accessability IE Toolbar
Rev. Bob, Interesting concept there and I'm glad it works.
Problem is still the same. No one made a tool for Opera. You just hacked a
solution to make it do what you wanted it to do. Without your excellent
knowledge and fine instructions the average computer user wouldn't know how
to do those things.
Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com
-----Original Message----- From: Rev. Bob 'Bob' Crispen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 2:58 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Web Accessability IE Toolbar
The voices are telling me that Lee Roberts said on 7/13/2004 11:28 AM:
The Gecko based browsers are fluid due to their open source nature. Opera could be easily supported, but no one makes tools for that smallgroup.
Au contraire: <http://blog.crispen.org/archives/000302.html> describes hot
to install the w3-dev menu and the blogging menu.
--
Rev. Bob "Bob" Crispen
bob at crispen dot org
Ex Cathedra Weblog: http://blog.crispen.org/
Don't ask yourself what the world needs - ask yourself what makes you come
alive, and then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have
come alive. -- Howard Thurman
*****************************************************
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See
http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
*****************************************************
From: Hugh Todd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:36:41 +1000 Subject: Review of Dan Cederholm's book
There's a review of Dan Cederholm’s book, Web Standards Solutions: The Markup and Style Handbook, on Todd Dominey's blog.
http://www.whatdoiknow.org/
-Hugh Todd From: "Patrick H. Lauke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 01:43:57 +0100 Subject: Re: [WSG] Web Accessability IE Toolbar
From: "Lee Roberts" [...]the average computer user wouldn't know how to do those things.
Once more, with gusto: the toolbar is for *developers*, not average *users*
Patrick H. Lauke
_______________________________________________________________________ ___
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively. [latin : re-,
re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
http://www.splintered.co.uk | http://www.photographia.co.uk |
http://redux.deviantart.com
From: "Patrick H. Lauke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 01:45:52 +0100 Subject: Re: [WSG] Review of Dan Cederholm's book
Also a slightly shorter one by Dave Shea the other day http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2004/07/11/book_review_/#000626
Patrick H. Lauke
_______________________________________________________________________ ___
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively. [latin : re-,
re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
http://www.splintered.co.uk | http://www.photographia.co.uk |
http://redux.deviantart.com
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:06:27 +1000 Subject: RE: [WSG] Web Accessability IE Toolbar
The reasons why the new version of the web accessibility toolbar is IE only:
1. there was a gap in "the market", no tools comparable to those available
for mozilla were/are available for IE
2. our programming expertise is limited (if somebody wants to work with us
on versions for other browsers/operating systems we'd be interested)
3. our resources are very limited as this project is unfunded so we work on
it between paid work and in our spare time.
4. while some people realise that there are better browsers than IE out
there, their uptake is still very small , and my original idea was to raise
awareness of accessibility issues and provide the tools to "the masses".
5. For better or worse many assistive technology users use IE for web
browsing, so i tend to use it for accessibility testing and browsing due to
this circumstance.
6. What time I have had to work on developing the toolbar has so far been
directed at improving the functionality and collaborating with others to
create versions in other languages.
with regards
Steven Faulkner Web Accessibility Consultant National Information & Library Service (NILS) 454 Glenferrie Road Kooyong Victoria 3144 Phone: (613) 9864 9281 Fax: (613) 9864 9210 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
National Information Library Service A subsidiary of RBS.RVIB.VAF Ltd.
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:24:03 +1000 Subject: Web and Online Accessibility Workshop - Brisbane 20 July 2004
The National Information and Library Service (NILS) is running a "Web and
Online Accessibility Workshop" in Brisbane on 20 July 2004. These workshops
introduce accessibility issues in terms of Australian policy contexts and
internationally recognised requirements.
This full-day workshop is targeted at web-development team leaders, corporate communications professionals, business managers, along with content authors, web programmers, designers and web contract managers.
Details and registration forms are at:
http://www.visionaustralia.org.au/webaccessibility/workshops/0407- brisbane.html
with regards
Steven Faulkner Web Accessibility Consultant National Information & Library Service (NILS) 454 Glenferrie Road Kooyong Victoria 3144 Phone: (613) 9864 9281 Fax: (613) 9864 9210 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
National Information Library Service A subsidiary of RBS.RVIB.VAF Ltd.
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:49:30 +0800
Subject: Re: [WSG] setting width for <li>s when inline
Hi Scott,
Well I'm a bit of a novice when it comes down to it, but when I initially added the "float: left;" I removed the "display:inline;" on both the <ul> and the <li> as I found it un-necessary in the original code you sent. While it may be necessay in light of other elements, is it possible to remove it on the <li> class? Would this solve both the problem of working as you require and still remaingin within the proper specs?
Like I said, I'm on a learning curve with CSS & standards compliance so if I am missing something here I'd appreiate any clarification from Patrick or any other more knowledgable folks....
Tania ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Reston To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 11:49 PM Subject: RE: [WSG] setting width for <li>s when inline
Patrick - Thanks for your detailed answer (and your patience...)
This would suggest that the fix I found exploits a (perhaps temporary) flaw in the browser render engines. To recap for folks just joining in, here's a short description of what I'm trying to do:
the code below should make the UL display as a horizontal row. "number one" should be 100px wide, "number two" 150px (unless i've mistyped, of course...)
This works for me, but I'd like to 'get it right' and not rely on an exploit...
======================== begin code snippet ======================== <ul id="example"> <li id="number1">number one</li> <li id="number2">number two</li> </ul>
ul#example { height: 16px; margin: 0; border: 0; position: relative; display: inline; list-style-type: none; }
ul#example li { display: inline; float: left; height: 16px; background-color: #999; }
ul#example li#number1 { width: 100px; }
ul#example li#number2 { width: 150px; }
======================== end code snippet ========================
for anyone interested, I'm carrying this idea a step further and applying the Gilder/Levin image replacement technique to replace 'number one/two' with icons. this is used for the "email/pdf" links about half-way down the page at:
http://www.capstrat.com/development/cs2004/template2.html
semantically, an unordered list; visually, icons. the width-setting is important to getting the image-replacement to work properly.
scott
-----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Patrick Lauke Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 11:34 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] setting width for <li>s when inline
> From: Scott Reston
> Does this suggest that > inline elements cannot have a width property at all?
Yes. Any browser that applies width specified in CSS to an inline element (or even a block element that has been set to display:inline) is not behaving in line with the spec.
> Can you clarify what the spec means by 'replaced'?
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/conform.html#replaced-element
In simplified terms, replaced elements are those that...heck...are
replaced by something else when displayed. the IMG element is replaced
with the image itself, INPUT,TEXTAREA,SELECT are replaced with UI elements
for the form widgets, OBJECT is replaced with whatever external piece
of "multimedia" (god I hate that term) you specify.
To take the example of IMG, this has an intrinsic dimension (defined just
below "replaced element" on the link above) in that the image is made up of
a fixed number of pixels, so the width/height are part of the image itself.
Although it's inline, the intrinsic width is then honoured in the display
(but again setting any width in the CSS is still ignored)
Hope this makes some kind of sense...as I'm starting to confuse myself here ;)
Patrick ________________________________ Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk ***************************************************** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *****************************************************
***************************************************** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *****************************************************
From: "Lee Roberts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:02:06 -0500 Subject: RE: [WSG] Web Accessability IE Toolbar
Congratulations to NILS for such a fantastic tool. Your use of the
simulator is perfection and can help people understand how others view their
web sites.
Steven, I thank you and your fellow programmers.
Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com
-----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 7:06 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] Web Accessability IE Toolbar
The reasons why the new version of the web accessibility toolbar is IE only:
1. there was a gap in "the market", no tools comparable to those available
for mozilla were/are available for IE 2. our programming expertise is
limited (if somebody wants to work with us on versions for other
browsers/operating systems we'd be interested) 3. our resources are very
limited as this project is unfunded so we work on it between paid work and
in our spare time.
4. while some people realise that there are better browsers than IE out
there, their uptake is still very small , and my original idea was to raise
awareness of accessibility issues and provide the tools to "the masses".
5. For better or worse many assistive technology users use IE for web
browsing, so i tend to use it for accessibility testing and browsing due to
this circumstance.
6. What time I have had to work on developing the toolbar has so far been
directed at improving the functionality and collaborating with others to
create versions in other languages.
with regards
Steven Faulkner Web Accessibility Consultant National Information & Library Service (NILS) 454 Glenferrie Road Kooyong Victoria 3144 Phone: (613) 9864 9281 Fax: (613) 9864 9210 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
National Information Library Service A subsidiary of RBS.RVIB.VAF Ltd.
***************************************************** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *****************************************************
From: Justin French <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 13:56:06 +1000 Subject: Re: [WSG] text field size tag
On 14/07/2004, at 5:13 AM, Ted Drake wrote:
In the 5th edition of O'Reilly's HTML and XHTML the definitive guide, they suggest listing a size and max length for the text input field. I would like to define the width with css and leave out the size attribute on my input fields. I'm trying to remove as much styling from our forms as possible and this works in my testing so far.
I'm wondering if anyone has any more concrete opinions on the practice of defining width of input and select fields with css instead of the size attribute.
In my opinion, you still need to set a "default" width for the element using the size attribute, for those without CSS. Yes, it will be overridden with CSS for 99% of your browsing audience, but it safer to put *something* in there as default, since you have no idea how a browser will behave without it.
Most browsers seem to put in a sensible default width if you exclude the size attribute, but I think "better the devil you know" in this case -- since you can't possibly test on every useragent available, let's give them a sensible default, then style over the top of it.
--- Justin French http://indent.com.au
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-- Teresa http://home.rochester.rr.com/tcarroll
"I say, play your own way. Don't play what the public wants. You play what you want and let the public pick up on what you're doing - even if it does take them fifteen, twenty years." - Thelonious Monk.
join rochester_disabled news group [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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