RE: [WSG] Embedding Flash
There you go! I knew it was too good to be true. That probably means that there really is no standards-compliant way of embedding Flash that doesn't cause problems for someone somewhere. Back to the drawing board. David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Ellis Sent: Friday, 24 September 2004 1:56 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Embedding Flash David McKinnon wrote: > I've used Ian Hixie's method, because it seems to be the least problematic. David One of the central tenets of good coding is that comments are for comments, code is for code. It's bad practice to put code into comments. Comments should not be interpreted by any software, they are purely for human consumption. What would happen if I added a normal comment to my code that some third party application decided to run and execute? Bad things can happen! Trust Internet Explorer to do something like this. If you are going to do something that is IE only then use vbscript, at least you'll know it'll only exploit the one browser that runs it. Cheers J ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Embedding Flash
Hi David, i totally agree with you concerning the goals of web standards ... but i use the satay method anyway because i'm selfish and validation gives me the kick :)) beeing such a junkie i'll soon switch my page from transitional to strict, because i nedd mre ;) greets from stuttgart stefan http://www.cialog.com On 24. Sep 2004, at 00:53, David McKinnon wrote: Reiterating Ben's comments and Zeldman's summary of the problems with the Satay method in Designing With Web Standards, that's exactly the problem with the Satay--sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. On some browsers, on some machines, sometimes. I think Zeldman's comment is how many people do you want to choose to alienate? This may sound like heresy in this list, but the goal of using Web standards is not to get your site to validate. (Wait, put down that pitchfork!) The way I see it people, is that it's all about people. The goal is to make it better for people. Better for viewers, who don't get things looking like krud because they choose the 'wrong' browser or platform. Better for people with special needs. Better for people who build and maintain the site and better for the people who will redesign the site when it comes to that. Then, when the forces of good rise up to crush the forces of tyranny all people will live in... Er... sorry, got a bit carried away there... Anyway it may just be better to use the flash default code because it works even if it doesn't validate. No, not the torch! Arrgh! David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Foskett Sent: Friday, 24 September 2004 12:08 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] Embedding Flash Just checked it in: PC: Opera v7, Firefox v1, IE v6. Mac: Safari v1, firefox v1, Netscape v7, IE v5.2 All displayed just fine. I'd remind you to replace some of the alt tags though (intro1.jpg etc). And perhaps consider adding "house doctor" to the initial h1. mike 2k:)2 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] site: http://www.webSemantics.co.uk -Original Message- From: Ian Fenn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 23 September 2004 11:58 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] Embedding Flash Mark wrote: Unless there is a major reason to be XHTML then I normally use HTML 4.01 - even if only on the pages with flash included. That's what I'm going to do now :-( Thanks for the help everyone! All the best, -- Ian ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** cialog | corporate interactive design stefan sick reinsburgstrasse 128/1 | 70197 stuttgart | germany fon +49 711 28044-20 | fax +49 711 28044-22 http://www.cialog.com/ [ the only constant in life is change ] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] Can I use frames AND css?
Perhaps, if the standard google, accessibility and 'frames are the devils spawn' arguments don't work with your client, then 'you won't be able to print' will? There's always something that pushes their buttons. See you at the conference, cheers Sara Sara Lander ABC Radio Sport [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: info Sent: Friday, 24 September 2004 1:10 PM To: wsg Subject: Re: [WSG] Can I use frames AND css? John, Nick, Cameron.. thanks for your confidence in me! It looks, from Cameron's example, like SSIs would be simple enough to do. The reasons for rejecting a SSI solution were something to do with the client not wanting to *have* to have a web server available (i.e., needing the ability to deliver it on CD for example). (I might well be misquoting or misunderstanding him... he's a good guy, really!) He actually said that if he was *only* going to have the content on a web server, he would agree to php/ ssi etc. .. but.. I'll have to accept the Frames idea as a non-negotiable requirement . (The site is being deployed to support a *very* small number (<10) of people with a specific job role within a single team, inside a firewall, so search engine/ accessibility etc argument didn't wash). Believe me, *I'm* convinced that a non-frames site standards-based site (my original site, don't forget) is better, but I'm just not in a position to argue any more on this one. SO... I'm going to keep it as clean & simple as I can, and will use the XHTML 1 frameset dtd to validate against. (And then I'll learn some php / ssi skills so I 'll be ready for next time! ) thanks very much for your interest guys...! What a great list.. (looking forward to meeting some of you at WE04 next week) Regards, Daniela Meleo ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Embedding Flash
David McKinnon wrote: I've used Ian Hixie's method, because it seems to be the least problematic. David One of the central tenets of good coding is that comments are for comments, code is for code. It's bad practice to put code into comments. Comments should not be interpreted by any software, they are purely for human consumption. What would happen if I added a normal comment to my code that some third party application decided to run and execute? Bad things can happen! Trust Internet Explorer to do something like this. If you are going to do something that is IE only then use vbscript, at least you'll know it'll only exploit the one browser that runs it. Cheers J ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Can I use frames AND css?
John, Nick, Cameron.. thanks for your confidence in me! It looks, from Cameron's example, like SSIs would be simple enough to do. The reasons for rejecting a SSI solution were something to do with the client not wanting to *have* to have a web server available (i.e., needing the ability to deliver it on CD for example). (I might well be misquoting or misunderstanding him... he's a good guy, really!) He actually said that if he was *only* going to have the content on a web server, he would agree to php/ ssi etc. .. but.. I'll have to accept the Frames idea as a non-negotiable requirement . (The site is being deployed to support a *very* small number (<10) of people with a specific job role within a single team, inside a firewall, so search engine/ accessibility etc argument didn't wash). Believe me, *I'm* convinced that a non-frames site standards-based site (my original site, don't forget) is better, but I'm just not in a position to argue any more on this one. SO... I'm going to keep it as clean & simple as I can, and will use the XHTML 1 frameset dtd to validate against. (And then I'll learn some php / ssi skills so I 'll be ready for next time! ) thanks very much for your interest guys...! What a great list.. (looking forward to meeting some of you at WE04 next week) Regards, Daniela Meleo ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: Re[2]: [WSG] Embedding Flash
At the risk of over Zeldmanning the discussion... My previous comment was probably (ok definitely) influenced by Zeldman's August 12 posting Silence and Noise http://www.zeldman.com/daily/0804b.shtml The original idea behind the Web Standards Project which really kicked off the whole web standards thang (and so WSG) was to make the web better for everyone (as I noted previously). They did that by raising grass-roots support amongst designers and by lobbying browser makers and other software developers to bring their stuff into line with the W3C. It's been pretty successful--IE wouldn't be the wonderful thing it is without all that work. As Zeldman points out, plenty of people get caught up in nit picking the code and forget about the bigger picture--making cool stuff that looks cool and communicates well on all levels. However there is still a way to go. Just as before IE5/Mac you couldn't get good CSS support there still needs to be a better way of doing things for Flash. Macromedia has come to the party by making Flash much more accessible (as Rimantas said). However, at the moment there doesn't seem to be a perfect way of putting Flash in a valid page. I've used Ian Hixie's method, because it seems to be the least problematic. So I don't think it's lying to use a doctype on a invalid page anymore than it's lying to add a file extension to a Mac file so you can open it on a Windows machine. You need the doctype so that the browser will display the page properly. It would be lying to write "This page is valid XHTML" on the page (or even "This page is not valid XHTML" on one that is). Rimantas is absolutely right about the standards, but if a client says they need Flash, until there's a better alternative, that's the best we can do. We can petition Macromedia or Microsoft or Apple or Opera or the W3C for a better way. Or we can contribute to the discussion on lists like this and find a solution ourselves, which is the fun part :) David PS: I'd just like to note (in case there's anyone from the Oxford Dictionary on the list) that this may be the first time anyone's used the word "Zeldmanning". -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ian Fenn Sent: Friday, 24 September 2004 11:32 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Re[2]: [WSG] Embedding Flash Ric wrote: > Hello Rimantas, > Well said and, IMHO, absolutely correct. Anyone notice Zeldman's recently announcement of happycog's redesign of the KC Chiefs site? He wrote that the website is standards-compliant but added a disclaimer that read: "Attention XHTML nit-pickers: We are still in the process of cleaning up the site's last remaining compliance errors. With over 4500 articles produced over ten years, there are plenty of things to fix. You don't need to tell us, 'cause we know." Source: http://www.zeldman.com/daily/0904c.shtml He pretty much sums up how I feel on the issue. All the best, -- Ian ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] Embedding Flash
This thread has been a bit of deja vu for me. I have been discussing this problem with an external developer who uses Satay, who doesn't seem to believe that it is flaky. He has tested it across many browsers/OS's and hasn't seen the problem, and therefore had difficulty believing there is a prob. If you want to use the Satay method, and you've thoroughly tested it, and it works perfectly everywhere, then go for it, but I will maintain that it IS a buggy method, and some of your users will experience the "blank text box" syndrome, whether you as a developer have seen it or not. Ben. > Reiterating Ben's comments and Zeldman's summary of the > problems with the > Satay method in Designing With Web Standards, that's exactly > the problem > with the Satay--sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. On some > browsers, on some machines, sometimes. I think Zeldman's > comment is how many > people do you want to choose to alienate? ** This message is intended for the addressee named and may contain privileged information or confidential information or both. If you are not the intended recipient please delete it and notify the sender. ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Can I use frames AND css?
On Friday, Sep 24, 2004, at 10:40 Australia/Sydney, Daniela Meleo wrote: NOW, the client has decided that after handover he will need the ability to easily add new pages whenever he needs to (as additional topics not yet know become required.) He's an open source techie type and will hand code the pages, so an authoring tool won't be used. He wants me to change the site so that it uses frames. Daniela: Uh... raher than try and make the frames work, I strongly suggest you use max effort to convince/persuade/educate your client that frames simply aren't the way to go. I used to use frames extensively in my site designs; I discovered the hard way that they're a PAIN to maintain - especially if you end up with nested framesets, as I did once or twice! Since I started coding to Standards, my life is SO much easier. One file: one page. Maintenance is a breeze, and Search Engines love it. All things considered, the only advantage I ever really found with frames is that some bits of the site can remain static while other bits scroll - fine for paranoid clients who ALWAYS want their logo visible, but otherwise... Really, I understand the perceived (and maybe actual) saving in bandwidth by not duplicating (say) navigation code in single pages, but if you code with clean, lean (X)HTML, not only will your bandwidth overhead be reasonable (also taking advantage of caching) enough to serve your site as single pages, but your client, if he's got enough knowledge of code to do his own additions anyway, will find well structured code easy to edit. A few well-placed comments would help - although semantic markup of s etc will as well. Just my 2.5c, but hth Nick ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] Embedding Flash
Patrick wrote: > Kids nowadays...no staying power. ;) Don't be so sure ;-) -- Ian ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Can I use frames AND css?
Daniela Meleo wrote: > I raised SSIs, which are beyond my skill to develop, but for various > reasons that won't be an option. That's all you have to do, (and change the extension from .html to .php). You'll need a web server with php enabled, I don't see why that would be a problem, especially if the guy is an 'open source techie type' as you say. regards, cameron. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Can I use frames AND css?
I raised SSIs, which are beyond my skill to develop I can absolutely assure you that they aren't, really! but for various reasons that won't be an option. Just in case that's another misconception, would you like to say what the reasons are? "Have You Validated Your Code?" John Horner(+612 / 02) 9333 2110 Senior Developer, ABC Online http://www.abc.net.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Embedding Flash
Ian Fenn wrote: I wrote: Anyone notice Zeldman's recently announcement Sorry for the typo. It's 2.40am here in the UK. Time to get some shut-eye. Kids nowadays...no staying power. ;) Patrick _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: Re[2]: [WSG] Embedding Flash
I wrote: > Anyone notice Zeldman's recently announcement Sorry for the typo. It's 2.40am here in the UK. Time to get some shut-eye. Night, night. Or morning, morning. -- Ian ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Can I use frames AND css?
John Horner said: >That's not the case, luckily. Can you say how you came to that understanding? John , that's a relief. I (in a slight panic) found this article http://www.sitepoint.com/article/frames-frame-usage-explained/3 around the sixth paragraph, it notes that info shouldn't be included on the content frame. I should have known better & checked for myself! I raised SSIs, which are beyond my skill to develop, but for various reasons that won't be an option. I've just put back the head & style link & it's looking much better... thanks! Regards, Daniela Meleo ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: Re[2]: [WSG] Embedding Flash
Ric wrote: > Hello Rimantas, > Well said and, IMHO, absolutely correct. Anyone notice Zeldman's recently announcement of happycog's redesign of the KC Chiefs site? He wrote that the website is standards-compliant but added a disclaimer that read: "Attention XHTML nit-pickers: We are still in the process of cleaning up the site's last remaining compliance errors. With over 4500 articles produced over ten years, there are plenty of things to fix. You don't need to tell us, 'cause we know." Source: http://www.zeldman.com/daily/0904c.shtml He pretty much sums up how I feel on the issue. All the best, -- Ian ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Can I use frames AND css?
At 10:40 AM +1000 24/9/04, Daniela Meleo wrote: He wants me to change the site so that it uses frames. The local nav would be in the left frame & the global nav & content divs in the right. At this point I want to stop you and say surely you must be able to avoid having frames and use some kind of server-side includes instead, but leaving that aside for the moment I've got something rather ugly working, but (finally!) here's my question: I understand that my content page & local nav framed pages should not have elements. That's not the case, luckily. Can you say how you came to that understanding? "Have You Validated Your Code?" John Horner(+612 / 02) 9333 2110 Senior Developer, ABC Online http://www.abc.net.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS rules & quirks database
Paul Novitski wrote: At 05:00 PM 9/23/2004, Tony Aslett wrote: I created a list of CSS properties and browsers that support them http://www.csscreator.com/attributes/ Excellent work, Tony. Are you storing this in an SQL database? Thanks Paul, Yes it's stored in a MySQL database. I'd like to see some other layers of information added to a database such as yours. For instance, in addition to generalizing None, Part, or Full support of a property by various browsers, I'd also like to specify exactly how they differ, since all browsers that "support" a particular feature may not do so in the same way. There are also quirks that don't quite come in the category of "support" but are critical nonetheless, such as the way IE requires there to be a background-color in order to render certain elements properly. Comments were meant to take care of browser quirks, so far there is only a couple of properties that have had comments added. Hopefully over time more will be added. Other quirks, such as IE's maverick box model, would be difficult to categorize in a listing of properties but could probably be referenced under such properties as margin & padding. Again comments should be able to take care of that. There are certain phenomena that occur when several properties and elements interact, and it would be great to be able to find out what the database knows about, say, a UL nested inside a DIV when its LIs have float: left. Cross referencing properties would be possible but not on the database in it's current form. It really wasn't in my initial design to be able to cross reference properties and it would increase the complexity quite a lot. Onward~ Paul Tony Aslett http://www.csscreator.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re[2]: [WSG] Embedding Flash
Hello Rimantas, Well said and, IMHO, absolutely correct. -- Best regards, Ric Water & Stone mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] visit our sites: www.waterandstone.com www.researchlaunchpad.com www.balitravelportal.com Friday, September 24, 2004, 8:26:21 AM, you wrote: RL> On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 09:43:31 +1000, Kevin Futter RL> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> I thoroughly agree with David here. Web standards are a means to an end and >> not an end in themselves. The way I see it, the point of web standards is to >> a) separate form from content and both from behaviour; b) make all content >> equally accessible to the widest possible audience; c) provide a >> predictable, reliable model that we can all work with. RL> I am at risk of starting holly war here again, but: please, don't RL> confuse web standards and RL> best practices. a) b) c) are best practices and can be achieved with RL> of without valid code. RL> Web standard (for (X)HTML) is: particular W3C (IETF ones are out of RL> question now days, I guess) specification and accompanying DTD. RL> Your code either complies to those rules or not. If it does not comply RL> by accident - fix it. RL> If it does not comply by intention - remove is not standards compliant. RL> It is either valid or not. There is no such thing as 'almost valid' RL> like there is no such thing "a little bit pregnant'. RL> Just like software - it does compile, or it doesn't. And just like RL> software - you may well write piece of code which does compile, but RL> doesn't run, so you can have (X)HTML what validates, but does not RL> follow best practices [ a), b) c) ]. Only web gives us a luxury of RL> having invalid pages that still work. Use with care. >> trying to use 'web standards techniques' for embedding Flash content fails >> at least two of these aims, and isn't worth pursuing just so that some >> software program will 'validate' your code. RL> Yes. If you choose this approach, you may use it. Only if code is not RL> valid by intention - remove I am not obsessed with standards or something. I know "real life" RL> perfectly well - I am coding for web for 8 years now. RL> But honestly, I do not understand, why people try to complicate RL> things. Is it so difficult to grasp - either your code follows defined RL> rules, so it is valid and is that does not. If not - there is no such doctype for "almost standard" RL> code, so don't use any. Browsers may have 'almost standard' mode, w3c RL> has not. RL> Or is it something so attractive in document type declaration that RL> people try to keep it even RL> if code is not valid and is not valid on purpose? If your conscious RL> decision is to use invalid RL> (or should I put it mildly - not compliant?) code fine... but what is RL> that erroneous document type declaration doing here? Ditch it. RL> And yes, validation beauty is only skin deep. I will strongly prefer RL> clean (content separated from presentation, markup is semantic, all is RL> accessible) code with no but bloated, table-ridden page suffering from classitis and divitis. RL> Point is - use whatever works for you and your audience, but do not lie. >> If you've done everything else >> pretty close to right, then the only validation you really need is that your >> intended audience sees everything they need to see. After all, Flash content >> isn't that accessible to begin with - insisting on embedding it with >> strictly valid code is a bit like putting handles on an elephant to make it >> easier to carry across a swollen river ... RL> Using Flash you can still provide alternative content for those who RL> cannot see it. RL> Why not to use this possibility? RL> Regards, RL> Rimantas RL> ** RL> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ RL> Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ RL> Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge RL> To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 RL> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm RL> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help RL> ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS rules & quirks database
At 05:00 PM 9/23/2004, Tony Aslett wrote: I created a list of CSS properties and browsers that support them http://www.csscreator.com/attributes/ Excellent work, Tony. Are you storing this in an SQL database? I'd like to see some other layers of information added to a database such as yours. For instance, in addition to generalizing None, Part, or Full support of a property by various browsers, I'd also like to specify exactly how they differ, since all browsers that "support" a particular feature may not do so in the same way. There are also quirks that don't quite come in the category of "support" but are critical nonetheless, such as the way IE requires there to be a background-color in order to render certain elements properly. Other quirks, such as IE's maverick box model, would be difficult to categorize in a listing of properties but could probably be referenced under such properties as margin & padding. There are certain phenomena that occur when several properties and elements interact, and it would be great to be able to find out what the database knows about, say, a UL nested inside a DIV when its LIs have float: left. Onward~ Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] Can I use frames AND css?
Hi there, I'm a XHTML CSS newbie. (Looking forward to meeting some of you at WE04) I've developed a small site for my client (internal company technical team) which I've hand-coded using XHTML 1.0 transitional + CSS. The site content is sort of like a big user guide, with four main parts (my global nav) and two levels of pages in each part. I have a local nav in a separate div, containing the for the hierarchical page links. So far so good: it looks pretty good & validates . NOW, the client has decided that after handover he will need the ability to easily add new pages whenever he needs to (as additional topics not yet know become required.) He's an open source techie type and will hand code the pages, so an authoring tool won't be used. He wants me to change the site so that it uses frames. The local nav would be in the left frame & the global nav & content divs in the right. This would enable him to easily add a page wherever he wants to in the site, in future, and he'll only have to update the local nav frame to add the new page (rather than update the s in a whole section of pages.. as many as 20 in some sections. ) I've got something rather ugly working, but (finally!) here's my question: I understand that my content page & local nav framed pages should not have elements. So how can I pull in my CSS to work with these? Ideally, I'd like to keep as much of my previous css as possible, by having the content & local nav link to the CSS file any suggestions? thanks.. Daniela Meleo Regards, Daniela Meleo IBM Business Consulting Services User Experience Team Phone: 0412 137 609 or 9354 4558 [EMAIL PROTECTED] @ work TUES--FRI ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Embedding Flash
On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 09:43:31 +1000, Kevin Futter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I thoroughly agree with David here. Web standards are a means to an end and > not an end in themselves. The way I see it, the point of web standards is to > a) separate form from content and both from behaviour; b) make all content > equally accessible to the widest possible audience; c) provide a > predictable, reliable model that we can all work with. I am at risk of starting holly war here again, but: please, don't confuse web standards and best practices. a) b) c) are best practices and can be achieved with of without valid code. Web standard (for (X)HTML) is: particular W3C (IETF ones are out of question now days, I guess) specification and accompanying DTD. Your code either complies to those rules or not. If it does not comply by accident - fix it. If it does not comply by intention - remove trying to use 'web standards techniques' for embedding Flash content fails > at least two of these aims, and isn't worth pursuing just so that some > software program will 'validate' your code. Yes. If you choose this approach, you may use it. Only if code is not valid by intention - remove If you've done everything else > pretty close to right, then the only validation you really need is that your > intended audience sees everything they need to see. After all, Flash content > isn't that accessible to begin with - insisting on embedding it with > strictly valid code is a bit like putting handles on an elephant to make it > easier to carry across a swollen river ... Using Flash you can still provide alternative content for those who cannot see it. Why not to use this possibility? Regards, Rimantas ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS rules & quirks database
Hi Paul, I created a list of CSS properties and browsers that support them http://www.csscreator.com/attributes/ It still needs a little work refining and adding content. The idea was to get the community (members of the CSS Forum) behind it and have them add to the content. Once logged in you can add / edit content and levels of browser support or make a comment. Eventually I will get around to finishing it off, it's on my to do list. Tony Aslett http://www.csscreator.com/ Paul Novitski wrote: Friends, Drowning as I am in the unending flood of details about CSS -- what works and what doesn't on which browsers, and how to make a particular effect work cross-browser -- I've started conceiving a database to augment my maxed-out cerebrum. Such a database could be queried for suggestions of how to accomplish a given presentational task, to advise about the cross-browser issues of particular elements, and to provide links to source material and demos on the net. Ultimately it might be made into a validator to help folks pinpoint problems in their markup. It would contain the kinds of details that are imparted daily on this glorious list, although I cannot imagine it ever rendering CSS listserves obsolete because of the endless fountain of human invention they convey. Before I get too far into this project, I'm wondering: - Is anyone else working on this kind of thing? - Would you like to join a working group to discuss its feasibility and implementation? Thanks, Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Embedding Flash
I thoroughly agree with David here. Web standards are a means to an end and not an end in themselves. The way I see it, the point of web standards is to a) separate form from content and both from behaviour; b) make all content equally accessible to the widest possible audience; c) provide a predictable, reliable model that we can all work with. It seems to me that trying to use 'web standards techniques' for embedding Flash content fails at least two of these aims, and isn't worth pursuing just so that some software program will 'validate' your code. If you've done everything else pretty close to right, then the only validation you really need is that your intended audience sees everything they need to see. After all, Flash content isn't that accessible to begin with - insisting on embedding it with strictly valid code is a bit like putting handles on an elephant to make it easier to carry across a swollen river ... Cheers, Kevin Futter On 24/9/04 8:53 AM, "David McKinnon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Reiterating Ben's comments and Zeldman's summary of the problems with the > Satay method in Designing With Web Standards, that's exactly the problem > with the Satay--sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. On some > browsers, on some machines, sometimes. I think Zeldman's comment is how many > people do you want to choose to alienate? > This may sound like heresy in this list, but the goal of using Web standards > is not to get your site to validate. (Wait, put down that pitchfork!) The > way I see it people, is that it's all about people. The goal is to make it > better for people. Better for viewers, who don't get things looking like > krud because they choose the 'wrong' browser or platform. Better for people > with special needs. Better for people who build and maintain the site and > better for the people who will redesign the site when it comes to that. > Then, when the forces of good rise up to crush the forces of tyranny all > people will live in... > > Er... sorry, got a bit carried away there... > Anyway it may just be better to use the flash default code because it works > even if it doesn't validate. > No, not the torch! Arrgh! > David > > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Mike Foskett > Sent: Friday, 24 September 2004 12:08 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [WSG] Embedding Flash > > Just checked it in: > > PC: Opera v7, Firefox v1, IE v6. > Mac: Safari v1, firefox v1, Netscape v7, IE v5.2 > > All displayed just fine. > I'd remind you to replace some of the alt tags though (intro1.jpg etc). > And perhaps consider adding "house doctor" to the initial h1. > > mike 2k:)2 > > >e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >site: http://www.webSemantics.co.uk > > > > > -Original Message- > From: Ian Fenn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: 23 September 2004 11:58 > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [WSG] Embedding Flash > > > Mark wrote: >> Unless there is a major reason to be XHTML then I normally use HTML >> 4.01 - even if only on the pages with flash included. > > That's what I'm going to do now :-( > > Thanks for the help everyone! > > All the best, > > -- > Ian > > ** > The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ > > Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ > Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge > To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 > > See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > for some hints on posting to the list & getting help > ** > > > > > ** > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they > are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify > the system manager. > This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by > MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. > www.mimesweeper.com > ** > > > ** > The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ > > Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ > Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge > To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 > > See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > for some hints on posting to the list & getting help > ** > > > > > ** > The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ > > Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ > Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge > To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 > >
RE: [WSG] CSS rules & quirks database
The CSS-discuss Wiki is a very good wealth of CSS information that is always being updated: http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=FrontPage Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] CSS rules & quirks database Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 16:07:29 -0700 >Friends, > >Drowning as I am in the unending flood of details about CSS -- what >works >and what doesn't on which browsers, and how to make a particular >effect >work cross-browser -- I've started conceiving a database to augment >my >maxed-out cerebrum. > >Such a database could be queried for suggestions of how to accomplish >a >given presentational task, to advise about the cross-browser issues >of >particular elements, and to provide links to source material and >demos on >the net. Ultimately it might be made into a validator to help folks >pinpoint problems in their markup. It would contain the kinds of >details >that are imparted daily on this glorious list, although I cannot >imagine it >ever rendering CSS listserves obsolete because of the endless >fountain of >human invention they convey. > >Before I get too far into this project, I'm wondering: > >- Is anyone else working on this kind of thing? >- Would you like to join a working group to discuss its feasibility >and >implementation? > >Thanks, >Paul > > >** >The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ > >Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ > Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge >To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 > > See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > for some hints on posting to the list & getting help >** > Regards, David McDonald Web Designer http://www.davidmcdonald.org ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] CSS rules & quirks database
Friends, Drowning as I am in the unending flood of details about CSS -- what works and what doesn't on which browsers, and how to make a particular effect work cross-browser -- I've started conceiving a database to augment my maxed-out cerebrum. Such a database could be queried for suggestions of how to accomplish a given presentational task, to advise about the cross-browser issues of particular elements, and to provide links to source material and demos on the net. Ultimately it might be made into a validator to help folks pinpoint problems in their markup. It would contain the kinds of details that are imparted daily on this glorious list, although I cannot imagine it ever rendering CSS listserves obsolete because of the endless fountain of human invention they convey. Before I get too far into this project, I'm wondering: - Is anyone else working on this kind of thing? - Would you like to join a working group to discuss its feasibility and implementation? Thanks, Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] Embedding Flash
Reiterating Ben's comments and Zeldman's summary of the problems with the Satay method in Designing With Web Standards, that's exactly the problem with the Satay--sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. On some browsers, on some machines, sometimes. I think Zeldman's comment is how many people do you want to choose to alienate? This may sound like heresy in this list, but the goal of using Web standards is not to get your site to validate. (Wait, put down that pitchfork!) The way I see it people, is that it's all about people. The goal is to make it better for people. Better for viewers, who don't get things looking like krud because they choose the 'wrong' browser or platform. Better for people with special needs. Better for people who build and maintain the site and better for the people who will redesign the site when it comes to that. Then, when the forces of good rise up to crush the forces of tyranny all people will live in... Er... sorry, got a bit carried away there... Anyway it may just be better to use the flash default code because it works even if it doesn't validate. No, not the torch! Arrgh! David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Foskett Sent: Friday, 24 September 2004 12:08 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] Embedding Flash Just checked it in: PC: Opera v7, Firefox v1, IE v6. Mac: Safari v1, firefox v1, Netscape v7, IE v5.2 All displayed just fine. I'd remind you to replace some of the alt tags though (intro1.jpg etc). And perhaps consider adding "house doctor" to the initial h1. mike 2k:)2 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] site: http://www.webSemantics.co.uk -Original Message- From: Ian Fenn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 23 September 2004 11:58 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] Embedding Flash Mark wrote: > Unless there is a major reason to be XHTML then I normally use HTML > 4.01 - even if only on the pages with flash included. That's what I'm going to do now :-( Thanks for the help everyone! All the best, -- Ian ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] Escaped &'s in field values.
I've got a form element that contains values that include escaped ampersands. eg, This & That I'm finding that when I use javascript to get the value of the (selected index of the) field, the value that javascript gets has the &, not & My character set for the form is ISO-8859-1. I'm using the form input on another page and want to stay XHTML... Does anyone have any insight into why I wouldn't get the whole value and what I can do to remedy the situation? Scott Reston Director, Web Development Capstrat 919/882.1966 v 919/834.7959 f 1201 Edwards Mill Road, Suite 102 Raleigh, NC 27607 www.capstrat.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] introduction
hey, welcome to the club!happy transition to css2. - Original Message - From: john <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:27:46 +0100 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] introduction > Hello, everybody. I've been reading the list for a day or two, and I'm > very excited to be part of the growing number of designers/developers > who are taking a stand for standards. > > A little bit about me: I am originally from Seattle, Washington, USA, > but moved to Portugal in April, 2003, in order to get off the fast track > and slow my pace a little (it helps that my wife is Portuguese *grin*). > I've been a Web developer since 1995, and started off on the right > foot with learning HTML, coding by hand (via PICO), and using the tags > for what they were meant for (rather than what they did to the > appearance of a Web page). In 1998, however, I went to work for the > Seattle Chamber of Commerce, who was naturally a strong supporter of > Microsoft -- the result was that I was forced to start using FrontPage > and Internet Explorer. In 2002, I switched to Dreamweaver (which > permits me to hand-code again, with a few bells & whistles)...and a > year ago I made Mozilla my default browser. Having just bought and > devoured Jeffrey Zeldman's book, I am (again) a supporter and devout > follower of Web standards and plan to redesign all my sites as time permits. > > Seems that, while I have a solid background in HTML, a natural tendency > towards minimalist design, and some experience with CSS1, I have a lot > to learn regarding CSS2. Forgive me, reader, for I have sinned against > tables...bastardizing them for layout and whitespace. :/ I have > repented and am slowly making my way towards the light, which is why I > have joined this list, as I hope to get support in my efforts. > -- > > ~john > > Dr. Zeus Web Development > http://www.DrZeus.net > > > > > > ** > The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ > > Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ > Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge > To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 > > See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > for some hints on posting to the list & getting help > ** > -- ___ Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net Check out our value-added Premium features, such as a 1 GB mailbox for just US$9.95 per year! Powered by Outblaze ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] I've got my viking helmet on and warming up for the aria
Hi Everyone
Opera is definately not in my scope of expertise. I've fixed the vast majority of my
css bugs and now I need to fix a couple Opera problems.
Here are some screen shots from browsercam. I hope you can view them.
http://www.browsercam.com/projects/99910/1643010.jpg
http://www.browsercam.com/projects/99910/1643012.jpg
http://www.browsercam.com/projects/99910/1643006.jpg
and what they look like in IE
http://www.browsercam.com/projects/99910/1643005.jpg
http://www.browsercam.com/projects/99910/1643005.jpg
There is an image in the div#topright that is floated left that is sitting below the
menu toprightnav
Here is the appropriate coding
Buy Now
Partners
Emergency Assistance
#toprightnav {position: absolute; top:.25em; right:1em; margin:0; padding:0;
text-align:right;}
#topright {font-size:80%; width:100px; padding-left:5px; float:right;}
#topright li {padding-bottom:2px;}
#topright li a {display:block; color:#000; padding:0; text-decoration:none; margin:0;}
#topright li a:hover {text-decoration:underline;}
I am using the IE Whitespace hack to avoid putting the unordered list on one line of
code:
http://www.hicksdesign.co.uk/journal/546/ie-whitespace-bug
Will this mess up Opera?
There's another unordered list in the body that should be a horizontal set of buttons
but is stacking in Opera.
Features
Coverages/Benefits
Certificate/Policy
Definitions
FAQ
#bodynavdiv {margin-top:0px;}
html>body #bodynavdiv {margin-top:-10px;}
#bodynav {margin-top:10px; float:right; font-size:10px; list-style:none; border: 0;
border-right: 1px solid #666;}
#bodynav li {list-style:none;display:inline;}
#bodynav li a {background: #e4edf1; padding: 1px 5px; margin: 0; color: #666;
text-decoration: none; display: block; float:left; text-align: center;
font-weight:bold; border: 1px solid #666; border-right: none;}
#bodynav li a:hover, #bodynav a:active {background: #9CBCC9; color:#fff;}
#bodynav li a.here {background: #74A2B4; border: 1px solid #666; color: #fff;}
Here are some pages to look at and whoopeee, they are now valid xhtml. At least they
were last night.
http://v4.csatravelprotection.com/csa/webdirect.do
http://v4.csatravelprotection.com/csa/coveragesall.do
http://v4.csatravelprotection.com/csa/twelcome.do
http://v4.csatravelprotection.com/csa/preparequote.do
Thank you again for your help everyone.
Ted
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/
Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**
RE: [WSG] Embedding Flash
Patrick wrote: > > The client controls those. I'll remind them to make their alt tags > > accessible. > > They're attributes...ATTRIBUTES...not tags! I know that... You know that... but to a client, they're alt tags :-) All the best, -- Ian ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] Help fix Firefox bug and win a Firefox t-shirt
This is a bit off topic (sorry) but we need your support once again to make XStandard for Mozilla/Firefox even better. The guys at Mozilla Foundation have been real helpful, but Firefox still has a bug that makes integrating plug-ins like XStandard a bit of a kluge (compared to IE). So we need to lobby on behalf of Firefox users to get this bug fixed. The Mozilla Foundation fixes bugs according to a voting system so we are asking for your vote to get this bug fixed. Fixing the bug will make integrating plug-ins a breeze and reinforce the usefulness of Mozilla/ Firefox, so there are advantages beyond XStandard. We'll also randomly pick 3 people who voted and give them a cool Firefox t-shirt. Our target is to get 100+ votes as quickly as possible. Timing is critical because we want the bug fixed for the release of Firefox 1.0, which is just a few weeks away. If you can help, please vote to fix bug 188938 at https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=188938 The link to vote is above the "Additional Comments" section toward the middle of the page. Thanks for your support! -Vlad Alexander XStandard Development Team http://xstandard.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] Embedding Flash
> > I'd remind you to replace some of the alt tags though > (intro1.jpg etc). > > The client controls those. I'll remind them to make their alt tags > accessible. They're attributes...ATTRIBUTES...not tags! Sorry, bit of a rant. Feel better now ;) Patrick ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] Embedding Flash
Hi Mike, > Just checked it in: > > PC: Opera v7, Firefox v1, IE v6. > Mac: Safari v1, firefox v1, Netscape v7, IE v5.2 > > All displayed just fine. Great - many thanks! > I'd remind you to replace some of the alt tags though (intro1.jpg etc). The client controls those. I'll remind them to make their alt tags accessible. > And perhaps consider adding "house doctor" to the initial h1. I've done that! All the best, -- Ian ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] Embedding Flash
Just checked it in: PC: Opera v7, Firefox v1, IE v6. Mac: Safari v1, firefox v1, Netscape v7, IE v5.2 All displayed just fine. I'd remind you to replace some of the alt tags though (intro1.jpg etc). And perhaps consider adding "house doctor" to the initial h1. mike 2k:)2 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] site: http://www.webSemantics.co.uk -Original Message- From: Ian Fenn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 23 September 2004 11:58 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] Embedding Flash Mark wrote: > Unless there is a major reason to be XHTML then I normally use HTML > 4.01 - even if only on the pages with flash included. That's what I'm going to do now :-( Thanks for the help everyone! All the best, -- Ian ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] Embedding Flash
Mark wrote: > Unless there is a major reason to be XHTML then I normally use HTML > 4.01 - even if only on the pages with flash included. That's what I'm going to do now :-( Thanks for the help everyone! All the best, -- Ian ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] Embedding Flash
I wrote: > Unfortunately it seems the best solution is to use JavaScript to detect > the existence (and correct version) of flash and then use document.write > to deliver the appropriate object or embed. Only safari seems to have a > problem. Actually it looks like I got that wrong. Safari is working now. According to browsercam, both Opera 6.0 (Macintosh) and Mozilla 1.6 (Win XP) display a large white space where the movie should be. Netscape 7.0 (Windows 2000) displays nothing at all. You can see the results here: http://www.browsercam.com/public.aspx?proj_id=99668 However, I've installed Mozilla 1.6 and Netscape 7.0 here (Windows XP) and the page displays properly. Can anyone check these for me? The url is http://www.housedoctor.co.uk/ All the best, -- Ian ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] Embedding Flash
James wrote: > I found the Flash satay markup worked fine on every browser I tested on > with every Flash player version I could find. Unfortunately that's not my experience. :-( All the best, -- Ian ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] introduction
Hello, everybody. I've been reading the list for a day or two, and I'm very excited to be part of the growing number of designers/developers who are taking a stand for standards. A little bit about me: I am originally from Seattle, Washington, USA, but moved to Portugal in April, 2003, in order to get off the fast track and slow my pace a little (it helps that my wife is Portuguese *grin*). I've been a Web developer since 1995, and started off on the right foot with learning HTML, coding by hand (via PICO), and using the tags for what they were meant for (rather than what they did to the appearance of a Web page). In 1998, however, I went to work for the Seattle Chamber of Commerce, who was naturally a strong supporter of Microsoft -- the result was that I was forced to start using FrontPage and Internet Explorer. In 2002, I switched to Dreamweaver (which permits me to hand-code again, with a few bells & whistles)...and a year ago I made Mozilla my default browser. Having just bought and devoured Jeffrey Zeldman's book, I am (again) a supporter and devout follower of Web standards and plan to redesign all my sites as time permits. Seems that, while I have a solid background in HTML, a natural tendency towards minimalist design, and some experience with CSS1, I have a lot to learn regarding CSS2. Forgive me, reader, for I have sinned against tables...bastardizing them for layout and whitespace. :/ I have repented and am slowly making my way towards the light, which is why I have joined this list, as I hope to get support in my efforts. -- ~john Dr. Zeus Web Development http://www.DrZeus.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessibility question: same link phrase more than once
Okay, see 4 different techniques here: http://design.quagma.net/test1.html 1. just the title attribute 2. display none 3. visibility hidden 4. left -5000px I like #4 cameron. Jake Badger wrote: You could use the one of the techniques that current image replacement tricks use: either set the width to 0 and the overflow to hidden or place it off the screen somewhere (like -1000px -1000px or something). Jake Quoting Justin French <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: On 23/09/2004, at 2:28 PM, Lea de Groot wrote: On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:10:24 +1000, Justin French wrote: 3 "read more on 'title of my post'" then hide the span with display:none; from modern browsers, while still having entirely accessible source No, wait - surely the image replacement techniques have shown that display: none is not a good way to make things accessable? Arrgh! Good point. Has the same been proven with visibilty:hidden; ? Perhaps it could be some DOM scripting instead? Just bangin' out ideas :) Justin ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessibility question: same link phrase more than once
You could use the one of the techniques that current image replacement tricks use: either set the width to 0 and the overflow to hidden or place it off the screen somewhere (like -1000px -1000px or something). Jake Quoting Justin French <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > On 23/09/2004, at 2:28 PM, Lea de Groot wrote: > > > On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:10:24 +1000, Justin French wrote: > >> 3 "read more on 'title of my post'" then hide the span > >> with display:none; from modern browsers, while still having entirely > >> accessible source > > > > No, wait - surely the image replacement techniques have shown that > > display: none is not a good way to make things accessable? > > Arrgh! Good point. > Has the same been proven with visibilty:hidden; ? > > Perhaps it could be some DOM scripting instead? > > Just bangin' out ideas :) > > Justin > > ** > The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ > > Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ > Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge > To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 > > See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > for some hints on posting to the list & getting help > ** > > ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
