[WSG] WSG Melbourne: Meet Doug Bowman and Dave Shea
The WSG informal pub meetup scheduled for Monday October 4 has now been moved to Tuesday October 5. This is becasue Dave Shea and Doug Bowman will be in Melbourne on Tuesday evening. The venue will likely be a pub from 6.30pm onwards but details are still being worked out. For those in Melbourne that couldn't get to WE04, this is a great opportunity to get face to face contact with two extraordinary people. WSG Co-Chairs Peter Firminger and Russ Weakley will also be flying down. So Tuesday evening free and spread the word around to colleagues and other lists you may be on. As with all are meetings here in Melbourne this is open to WSG members and non-members alike. Keep posted to this page for more information: http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/event19.cfm ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] WSG Melbourne: Meet Doug Bowman and Dave Shea
I really need to move to Australia. I know that if I manage to catch a plane there, I won't have enough money to make it back to the US anyway. Any Melbies who don't show for Shea and Bowman are insane! afdesign wrote: The WSG informal pub meetup scheduled for Monday October 4 has now been moved to Tuesday October 5. This is becasue Dave Shea and Doug Bowman will be in Melbourne on Tuesday evening. The venue will likely be a pub from 6.30pm onwards but details are still being worked out. For those in Melbourne that couldn't get to WE04, this is a great opportunity to get face to face contact with two extraordinary people. WSG Co-Chairs Peter Firminger and Russ Weakley will also be flying down. So Tuesday evening free and spread the word around to colleagues and other lists you may be on. As with all are meetings here in Melbourne this is open to WSG members and non-members alike. Keep posted to this page for more information: http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/event19.cfm ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Ryan Christie| e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Harrisonburg, VA | w: http://extrablack.com (opening soon) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] WSG Melbourne: Meet Doug Bowman and Dave Shea
Definitely! I was lucky enough to attend WE04 and it was well worth it. Dave did a live coding demo which was great! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ryan Christie Sent: Sunday, 3 October 2004 9:13 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] WSG Melbourne: Meet Doug Bowman and Dave Shea I really need to move to Australia. I know that if I manage to catch a plane there, I won't have enough money to make it back to the US anyway. Any Melbies who don't show for Shea and Bowman are insane! afdesign wrote: The WSG informal pub meetup scheduled for Monday October 4 has now been moved to Tuesday October 5. This is becasue Dave Shea and Doug Bowman will be in Melbourne on Tuesday evening. The venue will likely be a pub from 6.30pm onwards but details are still being worked out. For those in Melbourne that couldn't get to WE04, this is a great opportunity to get face to face contact with two extraordinary people. WSG Co-Chairs Peter Firminger and Russ Weakley will also be flying down. So Tuesday evening free and spread the word around to colleagues and other lists you may be on. As with all are meetings here in Melbourne this is open to WSG members and non-members alike. Keep posted to this page for more information: http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/event19.cfm ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Ryan Christie| e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Harrisonburg, VA | w: http://extrablack.com (opening soon) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] best way to format Skip Nav link
Some skip nav information that may be useful to you is listed at: http://www.d.umn.edu/goto/navigation#skiplinks Laura ___ Laura L. Carlson Information Technology Systems and Services University of Minnesota Duluth Duluth, MN 55812-3009 http://www.d.umn.edu/goto/webdesign/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE5 Mac hanging on loading a page
Mike This page: Mike http://morst.signify.co.nz/templates/ig3-template.asp Mike which validates as HTML 4.01 Strict, causes a consistent problem with Mike IE5 Mac, whereby the page won't load or display. I end up having to Mike Force Quit the browser. To anyone still worrying about this :) A floated element on the page, a span, didn't have a width declared, and needed one for IE5 Mac. That was causing the hanging. It is a known problem, but one I'd forgotten about. Thanks to Philippe Wittenbergh for the solution! Mike Brown SIGNIFY LTD :: the logic behind ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] MT hacked into by a spammer
The URL has been changed to http://www.elise.com/mt/archives/000767attacked.php (explanation on that page). Jonathan Cooper Manager of Information / Website Art Gallery of New South Wales Sydney, Australia http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 01/10/2004 06:11:43 AM: http://www.elise.com/mt/archives/000767hacked.php ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] WSG Melbourne: Meet Doug Bowman and Dave Shea
On Sun, 03 Oct 2004 09:13:29 -0400, Ryan Christie wrote: I really need to move to Australia. I know that if I manage to catch a plane there, I won't have enough money to make it back to the US anyway. Any Melbies who don't show for Shea and Bowman are insane! Yo! WE04 Travellers! If you can make it up to Brisbane I can assure you we'll move the meeting to suit your times! :) Lea ~ not another meeting due until November, though :( -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet http://elysiansystems.com/ WebTalk: Putting Businesses on the Internet - a newsletter at http://elysiansystems.com/newsletter/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] doctypes, quirks/standards mode and positioning
I was going to ask this question anyway, but then this thread started
about the place of doctypes...
Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
If you know for sure that the markup is going to be invalid, why
bother
with a doctype at all? ...
OK, Consider this very simple HTML document:
!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd;
html
head
meta http-equiv=content-type content=text/html;
charset=iso-8859-15
titleTable CSS test: Doctype HTML4 transitional/title
link rel=stylesheet type=text/css href=styles.css
/head
body
pParagraph/p
table cellpadding=5 cellspacing=0 border=1
tbody
tr
tdTop-left/td
tdTop-right/td
/tr
tr
tdBottom-left/td
tdBottom-right/td
/tr
/tbody
/table
/body
/html
With this extremely simple stylesheet (styles.css):
body {
font-family: arial,verdana,helvetica,sans-serif;
font-size: .7em;
}
In Safari, Firefox IE5.2Mac, this page appears as expected: the text in
the paragraph and the table are the same size. Increase/decrease the
browser font size and they grow/shrink together.
Now delete the !DOCTYPE ... declaration and try again. This time, only
the paragraph text follows the body style; the table text defaults to
the browser's normal setting.
To save you from having to create the documents, here are the 2 versions:
http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au/sub/dev/doctype_test/doctype.html
http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au/sub/dev/doctype_test/no_doctype.html
How could leaving out the doctype make such a definite difference to such
a simple page?
Regards,
Jonathan Cooper
Manager of Information / Website
Art Gallery of New South Wales
Sydney, Australia
http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 02/10/2004 12:04:24 AM:
I've settled with using the XHTML Transitional doctype, but that's only
for
new documents. For your older documents which don't have correct syntax,
I
agree with the other posts. I wouldn't use a doctype at all and let the
browser go into quirks mode and do it's best to render. Slapping an
XHTML
doctype on those documents won't make them more forward compatible, only
fixing the HTML would. It could actually make those documents less
compatible because you are in essence lying to the browser about the
content, and then hoping the browser doesn't mess up the rendering.
... under what cases should one use
an XHTML doctype - practically speaking ...
I would say simply, you should use XHTML doctype if you actually have
valid
XHTML code in your document.
With that said here's some resources I find helpful, if you'd like to
dig
more.
http://www.htmlhelp.com/tools/validator/doctype.html
http://www.quirksmode.org/about/quirksmode.html
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/betterliving/
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/doctype/
http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?DOCTYPE
Chris
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Nando
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 8:12 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] doctypes, quirks/standards mode and positioning
I'll be reworking the markup and the layout approach they've used ...
it's just that i anticipate they'll have a reason for using the
doctype ... cuz it doesn't jump up there by itself, that i'll need to
intelligently and authoritively discuss with them. Much of the code is
actually generated out of a Struts jsp app. So i'm looking for
resources and experienced opinions ... under what cases should one use
an XHTML doctype - practically speaking ...
On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 22:40:43 +0100, Patrick H. Lauke
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Neerav wrote:
so go for html 4 transitional validation if the clients tables will
always be invalid
If you know for sure that the markup is going to be invalid, why
bother
with a doctype at all? It's a bit like putting a may contain nuts
sticker on a bag of peanuts...
Patrick H. Lauke
_
re.dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
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To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004
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[WSG] best tags for FAQs
Hi guys, I am in the process of creating a FAQ section in one of my websites and I was wondering what would be the best tags to use for the questions/answers? Perhaps there is no standard, but I was wondering whether a definition (DT, DD) would be applicable? Doesn't really sound right to me, but it would be nice to use specific tags to easily identify questions and answers on a FAQ page, don't you think? Thanks for the feedback! Andreas. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] best tags for FAQs
I say to use a DL whenever you want to create a list that has a title. -Original Message- From: Andreas Boehmer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 5:32 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] best tags for FAQs Hi guys, I am in the process of creating a FAQ section in one of my websites and I was wondering what would be the best tags to use for the questions/answers? Perhaps there is no standard, but I was wondering whether a definition (DT, DD) would be applicable? Doesn't really sound right to me, but it would be nice to use specific tags to easily identify questions and answers on a FAQ page, don't you think? Thanks for the feedback! Andreas. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] best tags for FAQs
The first thing I thought of was a definition list, as the DT and the DD are directly related as pairs. If you go past the fact that it's called Definition List, the relationships created make perfect sense as an FAQ list as well, IMHO! Cheers Jason -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andreas Boehmer Sent: Monday, 4 October 2004 10:32 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] best tags for FAQs Hi guys, I am in the process of creating a FAQ section in one of my websites and I was wondering what would be the best tags to use for the questions/answers? Perhaps there is no standard, but I was wondering whether a definition (DT, DD) would be applicable? Doesn't really sound right to me, but it would be nice to use specific tags to easily identify questions and answers on a FAQ page, don't you think? Thanks for the feedback! Andreas. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] best tags for FAQs
On Monday, Oct 4, 2004, at 10:31 Australia/Sydney, Andreas Boehmer wrote: I am in the process of creating a FAQ section in one of my websites and I was wondering what would be the best tags to use for the questions/answers? Perhaps there is no standard, but I was wondering whether a definition (DT, DD) would be applicable? Doesn't really sound right to me, but it would be nice to use specific tags to easily identify questions and answers on a FAQ page, don't you think? Thanks for the feedback! Andreas. I've just done exactly that with a FAQ page. Makes styling the page a breeze, and is semantically applicable. If you search the archives over the last month or so, there was a thread discussing use of dl for any dialogue-type 2-part content: interview, qa, term descripton/definition, etc. N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] best tags for FAQs
Hi Andreas, I use a definition list. Usually, if the list is long, I have the list of questions at the top as an unordered list with links to anchors further down the page too. e.g. ul lia href=#q1Q1/a/li lia href=#q2Q2/a/li ... lia href=#qnQn/a/li /ul dl dta name=q1/aQ1/dt ddAnswer to Q1/dd dta name=q2/aQ2/dt ddAnswer to Q2/dd ... /dl Joe On Mon, 4 Oct 2004 10:31:38 +1000, Andreas Boehmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi guys, I am in the process of creating a FAQ section in one of my websites and I was wondering what would be the best tags to use for the questions/answers? Perhaps there is no standard, but I was wondering whether a definition (DT, DD) would be applicable? Doesn't really sound right to me, but it would be nice to use specific tags to easily identify questions and answers on a FAQ page, don't you think? Thanks for the feedback! Andreas. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Gmail invites - just ask nicely ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] best tags for FAQs
On Mon, 4 Oct 2004 10:31:38 +1000, Andreas Boehmer wrote: I am in the process of creating a FAQ section in one of my websites and I was wondering what would be the best tags to use for the questions/answers? Perhaps there is no standard, but I was wondering whether a definition (DT, DD) would be applicable? Doesn't really sound right to me, but it would be nice to use specific tags to easily identify questions and answers on a FAQ page, don't you think? Oddly, to dl or not to dl seems to have become almost a religious question. A quick google reminded me of Russ' page - http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/definition/ HIH Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet http://elysiansystems.com/ Search Engine Optimisation, Usability, Information Architecture, Web Design Brisbane, Australia WebTalk: Putting Businesses on the Internet - a newsletter at http://elysiansystems.com/newsletter/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] doctypes, quirks/standards mode and positioning
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK, Consider this very simple HTML document: ... How could leaving out the doctype make such a definite difference to such a simple page? The crucial part of my answer was: If you know for sure that the markup *is going to be invalid* The example you provide is of valid markup. I tried corrupting the code, but interestingly, on Firefox and Opera, even when the markup is blatantly broken, the doctype keeps the browser in standards mode (or almost-standards mode, as the case may be). Interesting...seems the wrong behaviour to me, but still interesting... You learn something odd/new every day :) Patrick _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] WSG Melbourne: Meet Doug Bowman and Dave Shea
Quoting afdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The WSG informal pub meetup scheduled for Monday October 4 has now been moved to Tuesday October 5. This is becasue Dave Shea and Doug Bowman will be in Melbourne on Tuesday evening. The venue will likely be a pub from 6.30pm onwards but details are still being worked out. Any news on the venue yet?, I have an appointment i need to cancel, so i'm really hoping its not on the other side of melbourne :) I live in the inner south east (caulfield area) of melbourne, so i'm hoping it will be reasonably close. For those in Melbourne that couldn't get to WE04, this is a great opportunity to get face to face contact with two extraordinary people. WSG Co-Chairs Peter Firminger and Russ Weakley will also be flying down. So Tuesday evening free and spread the word around to colleagues and other lists you may be on. As with all are meetings here in Melbourne this is open to WSG members and non-members alike. Keep posted to this page for more information: http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/event19.cfm ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Aaron Tate Mediafluid e:[EMAIL PROTECTED] w:www.mediafluid.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] best tags for FAQs
Quoting Andreas Boehmer [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi guys, I am in the process of creating a FAQ section in one of my websites and I was wondering what would be the best tags to use for the questions/answers? Perhaps there is no standard, but I was wondering whether a definition (DT, DD) would be applicable? Doesn't really sound right to me, but it would be nice to use specific tags to easily identify questions and answers on a FAQ page, don't you think? Definately either DD/DT or UL/LI. Most likely dd/dt. Thanks for the feedback! Andreas. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Aaron Tate Mediafluid e:[EMAIL PROTECTED] w:www.mediafluid.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] WSG Melbourne: Meet Doug Bowman and Dave Shea
Aaron, I live in the inner south east (caulfield area) of melbourne, so i'm hoping it will be reasonably close. these guys crossed the globe. I reckon crossing town is no super hardship :-) john John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ :: WebEssentials Sept 2004 Sydney Australia :: http://www.we04.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] WSG Melbourne: Meet Doug Bowman and Dave Shea - Venue Confirmed
The venue has now been confirmed for the WSG Melbourne meetup, with special guests Doug Bowman and Dave Shea. The venue is 3 Degrees, located in the new QV complex on the corner of Lonsdale Russell Sts, in the city. The meetup will be on the ground floor bar, which is accessible from the QV courtyard. A map of how to get there can be found at http://www.3degrees.com.au/2.html. Start time will be 6:30pm and there will be some finger food provided. As with all meetings here in Melbourne, this is open to WSG members and non-members alike. If anyone is having trouble finding the venue, feel free to call Andrew 0409 355 296 or David 0403 332 140. For those in Melbourne that couldn't get to WE04, this is a great opportunity to get face to face contact with two extraordinary people. WSG Co-Chair Peter Firminger will also be flying down. Keep posted to this page for more information: http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/event19.cfm Regards, David McDonald Web Designer http://www.davidmcdonald.org ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] default place-holders for forms
Hi guys, I have got a website (www.jet.org.au) that passes Bobby almost with AAA, with the exception of the default place holders. The reason I do not want to put them into the site is because every page has got a login form at the top. With the default place-holders, the login form would look something like this: Username: Enter username Password: The password place-holder looks pretty useless and confusing to me. Most users will plain wonder what that is supposed to do, it's not really helpful at all. So I'd love to hear your opinions on this one? Shall I enter them just to pass the accessibility tests, or leave them out for (in my opinion) better usability? Being so close to AAA and not reaching it is frustrating. Thanks! Andreas. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] default place-holders for forms
Andreas 1. You may want to research the pros and cons of automated accessibility testing 2. what do you mean by password place-holder ? Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy Mobile: +61 (0)403 8000 27 http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav Andreas Boehmer wrote: Hi guys, I have got a website (www.jet.org.au) that passes Bobby almost with AAA, with the exception of the default place holders. The reason I do not want to put them into the site is because every page has got a login form at the top. With the default place-holders, the login form would look something like this: Username: Enter username Password: The password place-holder looks pretty useless and confusing to me. Most users will plain wonder what that is supposed to do, it's not really helpful at all. So I'd love to hear your opinions on this one? Shall I enter them just to pass the accessibility tests, or leave them out for (in my opinion) better usability? Being so close to AAA and not reaching it is frustrating. Thanks! Andreas. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] IE 6 Hover Bug?
I am very confused about a rendering issue in IE 6.02 for an unreleased beta of my site. http://beta.danbowling.com/IFRindex.php For some reason when I mouse over several of my links on the left sidebar other divs reposition themselves. For example, hovering over the more link in About the Author moves the archives down, but they reposition themselves if I mouse over any of them. Can anyone see what is causing this?
RE: [WSG] default place-holders for forms
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Neerav 1. You may want to research the pros and cons of automated accessibility testing I completely agree that automated accessibility tests are not efficient enough to rate a website accessible. However, there are reasons why these tests ask for default place-holders, which I do not want to plainly ignore, just because they have been requested by Bobby. 2. what do you mean by password place-holder ? If I put a default place-holder into a form field with the type=password, it obviously appears as ***. That's the bit I would like to avoid, yet for accessibility reasons it may be required to provide it. There's a discussion going on whether default place-holders are really necessary or not. Appearantly there are some browsers or assistive technologies that do not find form elements if they don't have a default text in them. Neerav Bhatt Andreas Boehmer wrote: Hi guys, I have got a website (www.jet.org.au) that passes Bobby almost with AAA, with the exception of the default place holders. The reason I do not want to put them into the site is because every page has got a login form at the top. With the default place-holders, the login form would look something like this: Username: Enter username Password: The password place-holder looks pretty useless and confusing to me. Most users will plain wonder what that is supposed to do, it's not really helpful at all. So I'd love to hear your opinions on this one? Shall I enter them just to pass the accessibility tests, or leave them out for (in my opinion) better usability? Being so close to AAA and not reaching it is frustrating. Thanks! Andreas. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] default place-holders for forms
I would recommend leaving them out, from my experience with blind users,
the placeholders cause more trouble than they are worth. quite often users
are not aware of them and as a consequence they will fill in an input
without first clearing the place holder, which may well result in a form
validation error.
if you do use them it may be wise to include a javascript that clears the
default value when the input accepts focus
input type=text onfocus=if(this.value=='poot'){this.value=''}
value=poot/
PS. bobby is a piece of dumb software, don't rely upon it to tell you if
your site is:
a. accessible
b. conforms to the WCAG guidelines.
with regards
Steven Faulkner
Web Accessibility Consultant
National Information Library Service (NILS)
454 Glenferrie Road
Kooyong Victoria 3144
Phone: (613) 9864 9281
Fax: (613) 9864 9210
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
National Information Library Service
A subsidiary of RBS.RVIB.VAF Ltd.
Andreas Boehmer
andreas_boehmer@To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
gmx.net cc:
Sent by: Subject: [WSG] default place-holders
for forms
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
group.org
04/10/2004 02:06
PM
Please respond to
wsg
Hi guys,
I have got a website (www.jet.org.au) that passes Bobby almost with AAA,
with the exception of the default place holders. The reason I do not want
to
put them into the site is because every page has got a login form at the
top. With the default place-holders, the login form would look something
like this:
Username: Enter username
Password:
The password place-holder looks pretty useless and confusing to me. Most
users will plain wonder what that is supposed to do, it's not really
helpful
at all.
So I'd love to hear your opinions on this one? Shall I enter them just to
pass the accessibility tests, or leave them out for (in my opinion) better
usability? Being so close to AAA and not reaching it is frustrating.
Thanks!
Andreas.
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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Re: [WSG] default place-holders for forms
Right, Now I understand The guidelines say all form elements need to have default text inside them, but a form field with the type=password always renders as * regardless of the content I think commonsense should prevail and you should leave the password field empty, otherwise you will confuse some users Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy Mobile: +61 (0)403 8000 27 http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav Andreas Boehmer wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Neerav 1. You may want to research the pros and cons of automated accessibility testing I completely agree that automated accessibility tests are not efficient enough to rate a website accessible. However, there are reasons why these tests ask for default place-holders, which I do not want to plainly ignore, just because they have been requested by Bobby. 2. what do you mean by password place-holder ? If I put a default place-holder into a form field with the type=password, it obviously appears as ***. That's the bit I would like to avoid, yet for accessibility reasons it may be required to provide it. There's a discussion going on whether default place-holders are really necessary or not. Appearantly there are some browsers or assistive technologies that do not find form elements if they don't have a default text in them. Neerav Bhatt Andreas Boehmer wrote: Hi guys, I have got a website (www.jet.org.au) that passes Bobby almost with AAA, with the exception of the default place holders. The reason I do not want to put them into the site is because every page has got a login form at the top. With the default place-holders, the login form would look something like this: Username: Enter username Password: The password place-holder looks pretty useless and confusing to me. Most users will plain wonder what that is supposed to do, it's not really helpful at all. So I'd love to hear your opinions on this one? Shall I enter them just to pass the accessibility tests, or leave them out for (in my opinion) better usability? Being so close to AAA and not reaching it is frustrating. Thanks! Andreas. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] default place-holders for forms
Place holder text is only required for textarea and text input: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#forms-specific. The reasons are: it makes it easier to tab through inputs without having to read/hear the entire form, and; some assistive technologies can't find form's properly without it. It is a requirement (mostly) for legacy browsers, but I am aware of a recent browser for blind and sight impaired people that parses out labels and leaves only the input field. So without placeholder text forms make absolutely no sense at all. ./tdw On 4/10/04 5:06 PM, Andreas Boehmer wrote: Hi guys, I have got a website (www.jet.org.au) that passes Bobby almost with AAA, with the exception of the default place holders. The reason I do not want to put them into the site is because every page has got a login form at the top. With the default place-holders, the login form would look something like this: Username: Enter username Password: The password place-holder looks pretty useless and confusing to me. Most users will plain wonder what that is supposed to do, it's not really helpful at all. So I'd love to hear your opinions on this one? Shall I enter them just to pass the accessibility tests, or leave them out for (in my opinion) better usability? Being so close to AAA and not reaching it is frustrating. Thanks! Andreas. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] default place-holders for forms
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Terrence Wood Place holder text is only required for textarea and text input: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#forms-specific. The reasons are: it makes it easier to tab through inputs without having to read/hear the entire form, and; some assistive technologies can't find form's properly without it. It is a requirement (mostly) for legacy browsers, but I am aware of a recent browser for blind and sight impaired people that parses out labels and leaves only the input field. So without placeholder text forms make absolutely no sense at all. Could you tell me which browsers you know of that have difficulties with the empty field? If they do have difficulties, wouldn't it be required to put the default text into all of the form fields, not only textarea and text input? Wouldn't those browsers skip my password field, if it is left empty? Thanks for the feedback, guys. On 4/10/04 5:06 PM, Andreas Boehmer wrote: Hi guys, I have got a website (www.jet.org.au) that passes Bobby almost with AAA, with the exception of the default place holders. The reason I do not want to put them into the site is because every page has got a login form at the top. With the default place-holders, the login form would look something like this: Username: Enter username Password: The password place-holder looks pretty useless and confusing to me. Most users will plain wonder what that is supposed to do, it's not really helpful at all. So I'd love to hear your opinions on this one? Shall I enter them just to pass the accessibility tests, or leave them out for (in my opinion) better usability? Being so close to AAA and not reaching it is frustrating. Thanks! Andreas. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
