RE: [WSG] Accessible Forms - empty labels (??)

[Patrick Lauke]

> Nick Fitzsimons

> Surely
> 
> 
> 
> Search
> 
> 
> would therefore keep everybody happy?

Depends on AT support (whether or not a screenreader would actually be able to 
make sense of this construct and expose "Search" as explicit label for the 
search box when focussed on). Personally, I wouldn't have too many problems 
with this if support was consistent.

P

Patrick H. Lauke
Web Editor
External Relations Division
University of Salford
Room 113, Faraday House
Salford, Greater Manchester
M5 4WT
UK

T +44 (0) 161 295 4779
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

www.salford.ac.uk

A GREATER MANCHESTER UNIVERSITY  


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Re: [WSG] Accessible Forms - empty labels (??)

[Nick Fitzsimons]

On 12 Apr 2007, at 13:34:06, Patrick Lauke wrote:

I'm not making assumptions. I'm saying that, for sighted users,  
having a text input box with no visible label and a button that  
says "Search" immediately next to it is labelling enough.




Surely


   
   Search


would therefore keep everybody happy?

(Or does it matter if focus is switched to the text field as the form  
is submitted - sounds like the kind of odd case that A Certain  
Browser might get unreasonably petulant about...)


Regards,

Nick.
--
Nick Fitzsimons
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/





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RE: [WSG] Accessible Forms - empty labels (??)

[Patrick Lauke]

> Stuart Foulstone

> Sorry, I thought we were discussing labels for form input 
> boxes (not just
> one-box input search forms).

I was specifically talking about the type of form Bojana mentions in the thread 
starter.

> However, generally speaking, making assumptions about 
> accessibility based
> on the visual positioning of elements "in a logical common 
> place used by
> most other sites" is not a good idea.

I'm not making assumptions. I'm saying that, for sighted users, having a text 
input box with no visible label and a button that says "Search" immediately 
next to it is labelling enough.

> Better to design to Web standards rather the standard of 
> other Websites.

You seem to be getting a tad confused here. Am I talking about abandoning web 
standards? No.
Is it worth looking at other websites for common design patterns that users are 
already familiar with? Yes.

These aren't mutually exclusive.

I'm saying that having a label element that is moved off-left via CSS - keeping 
it in the markup, but not visible - is an acceptable solution in this case, and 
doing so would not pose accessibility problems to other user groups (e.g. 
sighted users with motor impairments, provided the text input offers a large 
enough clickable area in itself).

P

Patrick H. Lauke
Web Editor
External Relations Division
University of Salford
Room 113, Faraday House
Salford, Greater Manchester
M5 4WT
UK

T +44 (0) 161 295 4779
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

www.salford.ac.uk

A GREATER MANCHESTER UNIVERSITY  


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RE: [WSG] Accessible Forms - empty labels (??)

[Stuart Foulstone]

Sorry, I thought we were discussing labels for form input boxes (not just
one-box input search forms).

However, generally speaking, making assumptions about accessibility based
on the visual positioning of elements "in a logical common place used by
most other sites" is not a good idea.

Better to design to Web standards rather the standard of other Websites.


Stuart




On Thu, April 12, 2007 11:51 am, Patrick Lauke wrote:
>> Stuart Foulstone
>
>> If you're only concerned about providing form accessibility for
>> screenreaders, and no other disability, you could use the
>> method below or
>> a transparent.gif with appropriate alt-text would work too.
>
> Not necessarily just for screenreader accessibility. If the input itself
> is large enough, there's no problem for users with motor problems. And
> arguably, having a button immediately adjacent to the text input that says
> "Search" (and, I'm assuming, having it in a logical common place used by
> most other sites, like top-right) is enough visual labelling, so omitting
> a visible label for that text input shouldn't really cause accessibility
> issues for other audiences...
>
> P
> 
> Patrick H. Lauke
> Web Editor
> External Relations Division
> University of Salford
> Room 113, Faraday House
> Salford, Greater Manchester
> M5 4WT
> UK
>
> T +44 (0) 161 295 4779
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> www.salford.ac.uk
>
> A GREATER MANCHESTER UNIVERSITY
>
>
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>


-- 
Stuart Foulstone.
http://www.bigeasyweb.co.uk
BigEasy Web Design
69 Flockton Court
Rockingham Street
Sheffield
S1 4EB

Tel. 07751 413451


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Re: [WSG] Accessible Forms - empty labels (??)

[Jixor - Stephen I]

You could label the field as "search" and the button as "go" perhaps. 
I'm guessing you don't want to label the search field because the submit 
would also be labeled search?


Patrick Lauke wrote:

Stuart Foulstone



  

If you're only concerned about providing form accessibility for
screenreaders, and no other disability, you could use the 
method below or

a transparent.gif with appropriate alt-text would work too.



Not necessarily just for screenreader accessibility. If the input itself is large enough, 
there's no problem for users with motor problems. And arguably, having a button 
immediately adjacent to the text input that says "Search" (and, I'm assuming, 
having it in a logical common place used by most other sites, like top-right) is enough 
visual labelling, so omitting a visible label for that text input shouldn't really cause 
accessibility issues for other audiences...

P

Patrick H. Lauke
Web Editor
External Relations Division
University of Salford
Room 113, Faraday House
Salford, Greater Manchester
M5 4WT
UK

T +44 (0) 161 295 4779
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

www.salford.ac.uk

A GREATER MANCHESTER UNIVERSITY  



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RE: [WSG] Accessible Forms - empty labels (??)

[Patrick Lauke]

> Stuart Foulstone

> If you're only concerned about providing form accessibility for
> screenreaders, and no other disability, you could use the 
> method below or
> a transparent.gif with appropriate alt-text would work too.

Not necessarily just for screenreader accessibility. If the input itself is 
large enough, there's no problem for users with motor problems. And arguably, 
having a button immediately adjacent to the text input that says "Search" (and, 
I'm assuming, having it in a logical common place used by most other sites, 
like top-right) is enough visual labelling, so omitting a visible label for 
that text input shouldn't really cause accessibility issues for other 
audiences...

P

Patrick H. Lauke
Web Editor
External Relations Division
University of Salford
Room 113, Faraday House
Salford, Greater Manchester
M5 4WT
UK

T +44 (0) 161 295 4779
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

www.salford.ac.uk

A GREATER MANCHESTER UNIVERSITY  


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Re: [WSG] Accessible Forms - empty labels (??)

[Stuart Foulstone]

Hi,

If you're only concerned about providing form accessibility for
screenreaders, and no other disability, you could use the method below or
a transparent.gif with appropriate alt-text would work too.

Stuart


On Thu, April 12, 2007 2:50 am, Micky Hulse wrote:
> Bojana Lalic wrote:
>> I don’t want any text displayed before or after the query text input
>> element. Should I wrap a label around the input element and then hide it
>> using css? How do I get around this accessibility issue?
>
> Me personally, I setup my form normally using label/input, then apply
> absolute positioning to the label if I do not want it to show:
>
> .off, #formId label, .whatever {
>   position: absolute;
>   left: -999em;
>   top: -999em;
> }
>
>
> --
> Wishlists: 
> Switch: 
>   BCC?: 
> My: 
>
>
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-- 
Stuart Foulstone.
http://www.bigeasyweb.co.uk
BigEasy Web Design
69 Flockton Court
Rockingham Street
Sheffield
S1 4EB

Tel. 07751 413451


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Re: [WSG] Accessible Forms - empty labels (??)

[Stuart Foulstone]

Hi,

Yes, quite often accessibility features for people with disabilities
increase accessibility for everyone and, hence, "usability".

The clickability of label/field makes forms more accessible for people
with certain motor problems that have difficulty pointing with a mouse by
increasing the "target area" (particularly useful for checkboxes and radio
buttons).


Stuart

On Thu, April 12, 2007 10:29 am, Jixor - Stephen I wrote:
> I would refer to that as usability.
>
> Stuart Foulstone wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Since the ability to click on the label (or field) to put focus on the
>> field is an accessibility feature of forms, I don't really understand
>> your
>> point.
>>
>> Stuart
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, April 12, 2007 9:40 am, Jixor - Stephen I wrote:
>>
>>> The labels are also clickable to focus on their respective fields so I
>>> wouldn't say they are purely accessibility oriented in nature.
>>>
>>> Stuart Foulstone wrote:
>>>
 Hi,

 The labels are there for accessibility reasons, if you don't want to
 design for accessibility, don't pretend to.

 Stuart


 On Thu, April 12, 2007 1:55 am, Bojana Lalic wrote:


> Hi all
>
>
>
> Accverify fails my code because my input element does not contain the
> alt attribute or label.
>
>
>
> I don't want any text displayed before or after the query text input
> element. Should I wrap a label around the input element and then hide
> it
> using css? How do I get around this accessibility issue?
>
>
>
> 
>
>  name="search_submit"
> alt="Submit search query" />
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Bojana Lalic
>
> Web Developer
>
> education.au
>
> Level 1, 182 Fullarton Road
>
> Dulwich, SA 5065
>
> p +61 8 8334 3223
>
> f + 61 8 8334 3211
>
> e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> w http://www.educationau.edu.au
>
> Visit edna at http://www.edna.edu.au
>
>
> Register Now - Everyone has heard of Wikipedia, the online phenomenon
> of
> the 21st century, but very few of us know the man behind it. Jimmy
> Wales
> is coming to Australia!
> For further details go to: www.educationau.edu.au/seminar/challenging
>
>
> _
>
> IMPORTANT: This e-mail, including any attachments, may contain
> private
> or
> confidential information.
> If you think you may not be the intended recipient, or if you have
> received this e-mail in error,
> please contact the sender immediately and delete all copies of this
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> recipient, you must not reproduce any part of this e-mail or disclose
> its
> contents to any other party.
> This email represents the views of the individual sender, which do
> not
> necessarily reflect those of
> education.au limited except where the sender expressly states
> otherwise.
> It is your responsibility to scan this email and any files
> transmitted
> with it for viruses or any other
> defects.
> education.au limited will not be liable for any loss, damage or
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-- 
Stuart Foulstone.
http://www.bigeasyweb.co.uk
BigEasy Web Design
69 Flockton Court
Rockingham Street
Sheffield
S1 4EB

Tel. 07751 413451


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Re: [WSG] best standard / format for imbeded mp3 player in browser

[Benedict Wyss]

I like some of the flash players out there.

I did a little searching and found an option using flash but parseing a url
to it with 1 line of code to put in the page.

I set a demo here http://wysstech.com/audio/test.htm.

Any opinions on this method

On 4/12/07, Brad Pollard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


 For those after a flash component, this one is good:
http://www.1pixelout.net/code/audio-player-wordpress-plugin/

brad
fatpublisher 

- Original Message -
*From:* Jixor - Stephen I <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
*To:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
*Sent:* Thursday, April 12, 2007 3:53 PM
*Subject:* Re: [WSG] best standard / format for imbeded mp3 player in
browser

Yes, IMHO the best thing to do is to provide both a direct link to the
file and a flash player that is customized to your site's design.

James Ellis wrote:

Hi Ben

file.mp3 [50 Kb] works well and allows
people to play the file in the player of their choice (maybe they even have
their browser set up to do this if they want). They can also download it for
later playing.

If you want to play it inside a browser then I'm sure there is a flash
component that will play mp3's with play and pause buttons?

HTH
James

On 4/12/07, Benedict Wyss <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> just wondering which (free) mp3 player works best cross browsers with
> minimal code etc etc
>
> All opinions and suggestions welcome.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ben
>


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Re: [WSG] Accessible Forms - empty labels (??)

[Jixor - Stephen I]

I would refer to that as usability.

Stuart Foulstone wrote:

Hi,

Since the ability to click on the label (or field) to put focus on the
field is an accessibility feature of forms, I don't really understand your
point.

Stuart



On Thu, April 12, 2007 9:40 am, Jixor - Stephen I wrote:
  

The labels are also clickable to focus on their respective fields so I
wouldn't say they are purely accessibility oriented in nature.

Stuart Foulstone wrote:


Hi,

The labels are there for accessibility reasons, if you don't want to
design for accessibility, don't pretend to.

Stuart


On Thu, April 12, 2007 1:55 am, Bojana Lalic wrote:

  

Hi all



Accverify fails my code because my input element does not contain the
alt attribute or label.



I don't want any text displayed before or after the query text input
element. Should I wrap a label around the input element and then hide
it
using css? How do I get around this accessibility issue?









Regards

Bojana Lalic

Web Developer

education.au

Level 1, 182 Fullarton Road

Dulwich, SA 5065

p +61 8 8334 3223

f + 61 8 8334 3211

e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

w http://www.educationau.edu.au

Visit edna at http://www.edna.edu.au


Register Now - Everyone has heard of Wikipedia, the online phenomenon
of
the 21st century, but very few of us know the man behind it. Jimmy
Wales
is coming to Australia!
For further details go to: www.educationau.edu.au/seminar/challenging


_

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Re: [WSG] Accessible Forms - empty labels (??)

[Stuart Foulstone]

Hi,

Since the ability to click on the label (or field) to put focus on the
field is an accessibility feature of forms, I don't really understand your
point.

Stuart



On Thu, April 12, 2007 9:40 am, Jixor - Stephen I wrote:
> The labels are also clickable to focus on their respective fields so I
> wouldn't say they are purely accessibility oriented in nature.
>
> Stuart Foulstone wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> The labels are there for accessibility reasons, if you don't want to
>> design for accessibility, don't pretend to.
>>
>> Stuart
>>
>>
>> On Thu, April 12, 2007 1:55 am, Bojana Lalic wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Accverify fails my code because my input element does not contain the
>>> alt attribute or label.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't want any text displayed before or after the query text input
>>> element. Should I wrap a label around the input element and then hide
>>> it
>>> using css? How do I get around this accessibility issue?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>> >> alt="Submit search query" />
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Bojana Lalic
>>>
>>> Web Developer
>>>
>>> education.au
>>>
>>> Level 1, 182 Fullarton Road
>>>
>>> Dulwich, SA 5065
>>>
>>> p +61 8 8334 3223
>>>
>>> f + 61 8 8334 3211
>>>
>>> e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>
>>> w http://www.educationau.edu.au
>>>
>>> Visit edna at http://www.edna.edu.au
>>>
>>>
>>> Register Now - Everyone has heard of Wikipedia, the online phenomenon
>>> of
>>> the 21st century, but very few of us know the man behind it. Jimmy
>>> Wales
>>> is coming to Australia!
>>> For further details go to: www.educationau.edu.au/seminar/challenging
>>>
>>>
>>> _
>>>
>>> IMPORTANT: This e-mail, including any attachments, may contain private
>>> or
>>> confidential information.
>>> If you think you may not be the intended recipient, or if you have
>>> received this e-mail in error,
>>> please contact the sender immediately and delete all copies of this
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>>> recipient, you must not reproduce any part of this e-mail or disclose
>>> its
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>>> necessarily reflect those of
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>>> otherwise.
>>> It is your responsibility to scan this email and any files transmitted
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>>
>>
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-- 
Stuart Foulstone.
http://www.bigeasyweb.co.uk
BigEasy Web Design
69 Flockton Court
Rockingham Street
Sheffield
S1 4EB

Tel. 07751 413451


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Re: [WSG] Accessible Forms - empty labels (??)

[Jixor - Stephen I]

The labels are also clickable to focus on their respective fields so I 
wouldn't say they are purely accessibility oriented in nature.


Stuart Foulstone wrote:

Hi,

The labels are there for accessibility reasons, if you don't want to
design for accessibility, don't pretend to.

Stuart


On Thu, April 12, 2007 1:55 am, Bojana Lalic wrote:
  

Hi all



Accverify fails my code because my input element does not contain the
alt attribute or label.



I don't want any text displayed before or after the query text input
element. Should I wrap a label around the input element and then hide it
using css? How do I get around this accessibility issue?









Regards

Bojana Lalic

Web Developer

education.au

Level 1, 182 Fullarton Road

Dulwich, SA 5065

p +61 8 8334 3223

f + 61 8 8334 3211

e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

w http://www.educationau.edu.au

Visit edna at http://www.edna.edu.au


Register Now - Everyone has heard of Wikipedia, the online phenomenon of
the 21st century, but very few of us know the man behind it. Jimmy Wales
is coming to Australia!
For further details go to: www.educationau.edu.au/seminar/challenging


_

IMPORTANT: This e-mail, including any attachments, may contain private or
confidential information.
If you think you may not be the intended recipient, or if you have
received this e-mail in error,
please contact the sender immediately and delete all copies of this
e-mail. If you are not the intended
recipient, you must not reproduce any part of this e-mail or disclose its
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This email represents the views of the individual sender, which do not
necessarily reflect those of
education.au limited except where the sender expressly states otherwise.
It is your responsibility to scan this email and any files transmitted
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education.au limited will not be liable for any loss, damage or
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Re: [WSG] Accessible Forms - empty labels (??)

[Stuart Foulstone]

Hi,

The labels are there for accessibility reasons, if you don't want to
design for accessibility, don't pretend to.

Stuart


On Thu, April 12, 2007 1:55 am, Bojana Lalic wrote:
> Hi all
>
>
>
> Accverify fails my code because my input element does not contain the
> alt attribute or label.
>
>
>
> I don't want any text displayed before or after the query text input
> element. Should I wrap a label around the input element and then hide it
> using css? How do I get around this accessibility issue?
>
>
>
> 
>
>  alt="Submit search query" />
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Bojana Lalic
>
> Web Developer
>
> education.au
>
> Level 1, 182 Fullarton Road
>
> Dulwich, SA 5065
>
> p +61 8 8334 3223
>
> f + 61 8 8334 3211
>
> e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> w http://www.educationau.edu.au
>
> Visit edna at http://www.edna.edu.au
>
>
> Register Now - Everyone has heard of Wikipedia, the online phenomenon of
> the 21st century, but very few of us know the man behind it. Jimmy Wales
> is coming to Australia!
> For further details go to: www.educationau.edu.au/seminar/challenging
>
>
> _
>
> IMPORTANT: This e-mail, including any attachments, may contain private or
> confidential information.
> If you think you may not be the intended recipient, or if you have
> received this e-mail in error,
> please contact the sender immediately and delete all copies of this
> e-mail. If you are not the intended
> recipient, you must not reproduce any part of this e-mail or disclose its
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http://www.bigeasyweb.co.uk
BigEasy Web Design
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Rockingham Street
Sheffield
S1 4EB

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