RE: [WSG] a WCAG 2.0 question
I'm also bruised by new windows I didn't want and links which apparently didn't work because they refreshed an existing window below the current one. I second the line of argumentation against new windows. Even if screen readers can deal with them better now, I'd like to keep the user in control of what they're doing. There's no better indicator to a new window than the decision in the user's mind. Cheers, Jens The information contained in this e-mail message and any accompanying files is or may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, dissemination, reliance, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail or any attached files is unauthorised. This e-mail is subject to copyright. No part of it should be reproduced, adapted or communicated without the written consent of the copyright owner. If you have received this e-mail in error please advise the sender immediately by return e-mail or telephone and delete all copies. Fairfax does not guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained in this e-mail or attached files. Internet communications are not secure, therefore Fairfax does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message or attached files. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] a WCAG 2.0 question
Ideally they should warn or give some indication that they're going to open in a new window. I know the way i personally browse sites means I hate it when they open things in new windows. If i want new windows, I hold control down as I click, or middle click, or whatever. It's default functionality for almost every browser now. If the site is poorly written and i can't do that because it's trying to run some javascript, it is frustrating, as I shouldn't have a link that isn't a link on my screen. (But this is a different issue) On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 5:58 PM, Glen Wallis glen.wal...@velocitynet.com.au wrote: Hello all I am interested to know whether the people on this list consider opening a new window without alerting the user to be a failure to conform to Success Criterion 3.2.2 of WCAG 2.0. The success criterion is as follows: *3.2.2 On Input:* Changing the setting of any user interface component does not automatically cause a change of context unless the user has been advised of the behaviour before using the component. (Level A) The key phrases, I believe are “user interface component” and “change of context”. I looked up the definitions of both phrases. The glossary states quite clearly that a link is a user interface component and that a change of context includes opening a new window. However, the document “Understanding SC 3.2.2” says *“Additional Techniques (Advisory) for 3.2.2* Although not required for conformance, the following additional techniques should be considered in order to make content more accessible. Not all techniques can be used or would be effective in all situations. - Giving users advanced warning when opening a new window. (future link)” This seems like a contradiction. The WCAG 2.0 Recommendation is the only normative document, so it should take precedence over the Understanding document. However, the Understanding document specifically states that warning the user is not required for conformance. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] a WCAG 2.0 question
Hello all I am interested to know whether the people on this list consider opening a new window without alerting the user to be a failure to conform to Success Criterion 3.2.2 of WCAG 2.0. The success criterion is as follows: 3.2.2 On Input: Changing the setting of any user interface component does not automatically cause a change of context unless the user has been advised of the behaviour before using the component. (Level A) The key phrases, I believe are user interface component and change of context. I looked up the definitions of both phrases. The glossary states quite clearly that a link is a user interface component and that a change of context includes opening a new window. However, the document Understanding SC 3.2.2 says Additional Techniques (Advisory) for 3.2.2 Although not required for conformance, the following additional techniques should be considered in order to make content more accessible. Not all techniques can be used or would be effective in all situations. * Giving users advanced warning when opening a new window. (future link) This seems like a contradiction. The WCAG 2.0 Recommendation is the only normative document, so it should take precedence over the Understanding document. However, the Understanding document specifically states that warning the user is not required for conformance. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] a WCAG 2.0 question
Glen Wallis wrote: I am interested to know whether the people on this list consider opening a new window without alerting the user to be a failure to conform to Success Criterion 3.2.2 of WCAG 2.0. *3.2.2 On Input:* Changing the setting of any user interface component does not automatically cause a change of context unless the user has been advised of the behaviour before using the component. (Level A) I believe the issue here is changing the setting. When a user is activating a link, it's not a change of settings...it's an actual action to navigate. So it's desirable to still let users know that a new window will pop up, but not essential. Compare this to a change of context (new window or otherwise) when, say, a user simply changes the selected option in a select element (old-school navigation dropdown selects). P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] a WCAG 2.0 question
hi glenda, Changing the setting of any user interface component is changing some state in the control that will persist when the user is no longer interacting with it. So checking a checkbox or entering text into a text field changes its setting, but activating a link or a button does not. http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/consistent-behavior-unpredictable-change.html I think this makes it clear that on input does not refer to activating a link. regards stevef 2009/3/12 Glen Wallis glen.wal...@velocitynet.com.au: Hello all I am interested to know whether the people on this list consider opening a new window without alerting the user to be a failure to conform to Success Criterion 3.2.2 of WCAG 2.0. The success criterion is as follows: 3.2.2 On Input: Changing the setting of any user interface component does not automatically cause a change of context unless the user has been advised of the behaviour before using the component. (Level A) The key phrases, I believe are “user interface component” and “change of context”. I looked up the definitions of both phrases. The glossary states quite clearly that a link is a user interface component and that a change of context includes opening a new window. However, the document “Understanding SC 3.2.2” says “Additional Techniques (Advisory) for 3.2.2 Although not required for conformance, the following additional techniques should be considered in order to make content more accessible. Not all techniques can be used or would be effective in all situations. Giving users advanced warning when opening a new window. (future link)” This seems like a contradiction. The WCAG 2.0 Recommendation is the only normative document, so it should take precedence over the Understanding document. However, the Understanding document specifically states that warning the user is not required for conformance. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- with regards Steve Faulkner Technical Director - TPG Europe Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org Web Accessibility Toolbar - http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] a WCAG 2.0 question
No contradiction. WCAG 2.0 Recommendation is the normative document. Not all techniques can be used or would be effective in all situations. Therefore, any particular TECHNIQUE is not REQUIRED for conformance. That is to say, if you have some other technique that meets the WCAG recommendation you can use that instead. On Thu, March 12, 2009 6:58 am, Glen Wallis wrote: Hello all I am interested to know whether the people on this list consider opening a new window without alerting the user to be a failure to conform to Success Criterion 3.2.2 of WCAG 2.0. The success criterion is as follows: 3.2.2 On Input: Changing the setting of any user interface component does not automatically cause a change of context unless the user has been advised of the behaviour before using the component. (Level A) The key phrases, I believe are user interface component and change of context. I looked up the definitions of both phrases. The glossary states quite clearly that a link is a user interface component and that a change of context includes opening a new window. However, the document Understanding SC 3.2.2 says Additional Techniques (Advisory) for 3.2.2 Although not required for conformance, the following additional techniques should be considered in order to make content more accessible. Not all techniques can be used or would be effective in all situations. * Giving users advanced warning when opening a new window. (future link) This seems like a contradiction. The WCAG 2.0 Recommendation is the only normative document, so it should take precedence over the Understanding document. However, the Understanding document specifically states that warning the user is not required for conformance. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] a WCAG 2.0 question
It's not just screen readers that have problems with new windows. Every user group we have tested with has had problems. Screen reader users sometimes do not notice that the screen reader has announced the opening of a new window. Screen magnifier users frequently cannot tell that a new window has opened, particularly if it is larger than their screen, which is invariably the case at anything over 4x magnification. Even sighted users often do not notice. This is especially the case if a link opens in a new tab rather than a new window. The best practice is not to open new windows at all, regardless of what WCAG 2.0 may or may not say. Steve -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Jon Gunderson Sent: 12 March 2009 14:23 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] a WCAG 2.0 question I think this requirement is a little out dated, screen readers today do a good job of telling people that a new window is open. I think the main concern is window pollution, if links are opening a lot of new windows it can be difficult for people with some types of disabilities to be aware of and find windows they are interested in. I believe a best practice is for your web pages to use the same TARGET attribute value so links from your page basically are updating the same new window and not creating a new window for every link followed from your website. Jon On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 1:58 AM, Glen Wallis glen.wal...@velocitynet.com.au wrote: Hello all I am interested to know whether the people on this list consider opening a new window without alerting the user to be a failure to conform to Success Criterion 3.2.2 of WCAG 2.0. The success criterion is as follows: 3.2.2 On Input: Changing the setting of any user interface component does not automatically cause a change of context unless the user has been advised of the behaviour before using the component. (Level A) The key phrases, I believe are user interface component and change of context. I looked up the definitions of both phrases. The glossary states quite clearly that a link is a user interface component and that a change of context includes opening a new window. However, the document Understanding SC 3.2.2 says Additional Techniques (Advisory) for 3.2.2 Although not required for conformance, the following additional techniques should be considered in order to make content more accessible. Not all techniques can be used or would be effective in all situations. Giving users advanced warning when opening a new window. (future link) This seems like a contradiction. The WCAG 2.0 Recommendation is the only normative document, so it should take precedence over the Understanding document. However, the Understanding document specifically states that warning the user is not required for conformance. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] a WCAG 2.0 question
I think this requirement is a little out dated, screen readers today do a good job of telling people that a new window is open. I think the main concern is window pollution, if links are opening a lot of new windows it can be difficult for people with some types of disabilities to be aware of and find windows they are interested in. I believe a best practice is for your web pages to use the same TARGET attribute value so links from your page basically are updating the same new window and not creating a new window for every link followed from your website. Jon On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 1:58 AM, Glen Wallis glen.wal...@velocitynet.com.au wrote: Hello all I am interested to know whether the people on this list consider opening a new window without alerting the user to be a failure to conform to Success Criterion 3.2.2 of WCAG 2.0. The success criterion is as follows: 3.2.2 On Input: Changing the setting of any user interface component does not automatically cause a change of context unless the user has been advised of the behaviour before using the component. (Level A) The key phrases, I believe are “user interface component” and “change of context”. I looked up the definitions of both phrases. The glossary states quite clearly that a link is a user interface component and that a change of context includes opening a new window. However, the document “Understanding SC 3.2.2” says “Additional Techniques (Advisory) for 3.2.2 Although not required for conformance, the following additional techniques should be considered in order to make content more accessible. Not all techniques can be used or would be effective in all situations. Giving users advanced warning when opening a new window. (future link)” This seems like a contradiction. The WCAG 2.0 Recommendation is the only normative document, so it should take precedence over the Understanding document. However, the Understanding document specifically states that warning the user is not required for conformance. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] a WCAG 2.0 question
Jon Gunderson I think this requirement is a little out dated, screen readers today do a good job of telling people that a new window is open. But, as discussed, the requirement actually doesn't concern itself directly with links popping up new windows, but more things like the page all of a sudden reloading, changing url, etc unexpectedly. So it's not outdated. P Patrick H. Lauke Web Editor Enterprise Development University of Salford Room 113, Faraday House Salford, Greater Manchester M5 4WT UK T +44 (0) 161 295 4779 webmas...@salford.ac.uk www.salford.ac.uk A GREATER MANCHESTER UNIVERSITY *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] a WCAG 2.0 question
I believe a best practice is for your web pages to use the same TARGET attribute value so links from your page basically are updating the same new window and not creating a new window for every link followed from your website. Jon I would have to disagree with that. If the user actually _is_ aware that they are about to open a new window, then does the same again somewhere else on the page, or on another page, then they are going to be very confused to discover that only one window has opened. Regards, Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] a WCAG 2.0 question
michael.brocking...@bt.com wrote: I would have to disagree with that. If the user actually _is_ aware that they are about to open a new window, then does the same again somewhere else on the page, or on another page, then they are going to be very confused to discover that only one window has opened. And some systems do not raise windows that already exist when a new document is loaded into them. A few years ago (before I rigged my system to make it very difficult for sites to force new windows on me), I would (every now and again) run into sites where clicking a link appeared to do nothing (because it was changing the content of a window hidden behind the active window). There are lots of reasons why new windows cause accessibility and usability problems. It is almost always better to just work with the window the user provides you with and not try to get extra ones. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] a WCAG 2.0 question
On Thu, 12 Mar 2009, michael.brocking...@bt.com wrote: I believe a best practice is for your web pages to use the same TARGET attribute value so links from your page basically are updating the same new window and not creating a new window for every link followed from your website. I would have to disagree with that. If the user actually _is_ aware that they are about to open a new window, then does the same again somewhere else on the page, or on another page, then they are going to be very confused to discover that only one window has opened. How can a use be aware that a new window has opened if it hasn't? I get annoyed by links marked with will open in a new window or similar, because in my browser, it will NOT open a new window, and I think for many people that is the case. Does anyone NOT disallow pop-up windows? -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster http://woodbine-gerrard.com = Do not reply to the From: address; use Reply-To: Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
