Re: [WSG] Developing for Mac Browsers
There is no need to style the forms strongly but you can try to explicitly coax the style to be more uniform by applying CSS intelligently. BTW: Buttons should be buttons and not an obscure graphic acting as a link or calling JavaScript. If you keep your head on your shoulders there should be little problem with subtle form styling. Joe On Jan 14, 2008, at 13:42, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: With respect to form elements, I believe you will find that what the proper Mac browsers do is perfectly 'legal'. What is more, Windows users don't generally appreciate it when form elements are styled so strongly that they are no longer recognisable, which is why so many usability (and I don't mean accessibility) guru's advice is: don't do it. == Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Developing for Mac Browsers
On 2008/01/15 12:05 (GMT+1000) Tate Johnson apparently typed: From my experience, Konqueror and Safari render pages identically. In addition, now that Safari is available on Windows ... there is virtually no difference between browsers that are available on Windows, OS X and Linux. Essentially, each browser utilises a rendering engine of which there are four popular types. They are Trident (IE), Gecko (Mozilla, Firefox, Camino), KHTML/Webkit (Konqueror, Safari, Shiira) and Preseto (Opera). However, bugs sometime creep in to platform specific versions of these implementations. The differences across platform are commonly enough to discern. The reason is the font rendering engines differ not only across plaforms, but also versions and implementations within the platforms, particularly Linux, where differences between byte code interpretation or not are usually unmistakable. This is true even when the exact same font files are the source the rendering engines use. I spot differences in line-height easily and routinely, even with line-height explicitly specified in the CSS. -- In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Developing for Mac Browsers
Now fire up Safari and Camino side-by-side, and notice how both browsers display form elements the way that the user expects - nice and shiny, rounded blue - easy to tell apart from the occasional You are infected etc pop-ups with an image of a Windows button. This is because the form elements come from the OS, not from the browser. With respect to form elements, I believe you will find that what the proper Mac browsers do is perfectly 'legal'. What is more, Windows users don't generally appreciate it when form elements are styled so strongly that they are no longer recognisable, which is why so many usability (and I don't mean accessibility) guru's advice is: don't do it. Regards, Mike From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Ortenzi The form elements come from the browser, not the API. fire up safari and firefox on your mac and you will see this. Safari has that silly round button thing and firefox has a more windowsy set of form elements. two: you can style form elements in css but safari doesn't play as well as firefox does in honouring your display. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Developing for Mac Browsers
On Jan 13, 2008, at 12:51 AM, Peter Mount wrote: Hi I'm tossing up whether to buy a Mac or to save my money and buy a new PC and just have Linux and Windows on it. I've read that Safari for Windows will help Web Developers without a Mac be able to develop for that. Is there a difference between Mac versions of browsers like Firefox and Safari or can I safely develop in non Mac versions and expect my web sites to behave the same on the Mac? Currently my main OS is Kubuntu but I'll soon be trialling Red Hat Desktop 5 Multi OS. Thanks I'm just going to echo alot of what people have already said... With a Intel Mac you can run, Windows, OS X, and Unix (FreeBSD specifically I believe) which is what the OS X operating system runs on-top/in- conjunction with. There's also no need to anti-virus software/malware detectors etc. etc. etc. on the mac unless you have installed windows and are using it for more then just checking your pages. If all your own browsing/email is done on the mac side I believe you are safe. Also, one thing I haven't seen in this thread, is the fact that in a few years when you look at updating the Mac you could possibly get a decent amount for it. There was an article written I believe this past spring/summer that suggested buying a Mac ended up being much cheaper when compared to a equivalent windows computer including resale value. Sorry no time right now to search it out. Anyway... Just my 2¢ :) Been a Mac user all my life so please do take that into consideration but I'll stand behind my claims :) -- Jason Pruim Raoset Inc. Technology Manager MQC Specialist 3251 132nd ave Holland, MI, 49424 www.raoset.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Developing for Mac Browsers
On 13/01/2008, at 3:51 PM, Peter Mount wrote: Hi I'm tossing up whether to buy a Mac or to save my money and buy a new PC and just have Linux and Windows on it. I've read that Safari for Windows will help Web Developers without a Mac be able to develop for that. Is there a difference between Mac versions of browsers like Firefox and Safari or can I safely develop in non Mac versions and expect my web sites to behave the same on the Mac? Currently my main OS is Kubuntu but I'll soon be trialling Red Hat Desktop 5 Multi OS. From my experience, Konqueror and Safari render pages identically. In addition, now that Safari is available on Windows; you could take a look at virtualisation which would allow you to run Windows from within your KDE/Qt environment (Check out VirtualBox). Besides that, there is virtually no difference between browsers that are available on Windows, OS X and Linux. Essentially, each browser utilises a rendering engine of which there are four popular types. They are Trident (IE), Gecko (Mozilla, Firefox, Camino), KHTML/Webkit (Konqueror, Safari, Shiira) and Preseto (Opera). However, bugs sometime creep in to platform specific versions of these implementations. On 14/01/2008, at 11:42 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Now fire up Safari and Camino side-by-side, and notice how both browsers display form elements the way that the user expects - nice and shiny, rounded blue - easy to tell apart from the occasional You are infected etc pop-ups with an image of a Windows button. This is because the form elements come from the OS, not from the browser. This has been the usual behaviour of KHTML/Webkit based browsers until recently. I've noticed that in Safari 3.0 on OS X Leopard, it's possible to apply style attributes to form elements; specifically the submit input type. With respect to form elements, I believe you will find that what the proper Mac browsers do is perfectly 'legal'. What is more, Windows users don't generally appreciate it when form elements are styled so strongly that they are no longer recognisable, which is why so many usability (and I don't mean accessibility) guru's advice is: don't do it. Agreed, there's a great article on Berea 465 which clearly demonstrates the inconsistencies of styling form elements across various platforms. It can become confusing for users who are comfortable (and familiar) with their OS widgets. You can find the article at the following URL: http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200701/styling_form_controls_with_css_revisited/ Cheers, Tate *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Developing for Mac Browsers
On Jan 13, 2008 5:51 AM, Peter Mount [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm tossing up whether to buy a Mac or to save my money and buy a new PC and just have Linux and Windows on it. I've read that Safari for Windows will help Web Developers without a Mac be able to develop for that. Unless you're a hardcore PC gamer, why not get an Intel Mac? Then you can run Windows (on Parallels or VMWare or Boot Camp), Linux, and MacOS on the same machine. Plus you get a *nix based OS that is much nicer to develop for than Windows. -- - Matthew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Developing for Mac Browsers
Hi Peter, On 13-Jan-08, at 11:21 AM, Peter Mount wrote: I'm tossing up whether to buy a Mac or to save my money and buy a new PC and just have Linux and Windows on it. I've read that Safari for Windows will help Web Developers without a Mac be able to develop for that. Ultimately, your choice will be a personal one. I'd suggest going to an Apple store, and trying one out -- having Parallels, and seeing how my site looks in three or more operating systems at the same time is useful for /me/. Some of the reasons for switching to a Mac will not be directly webdesign related - most of the things that OS X can do may be achieved with some amount of effort on another operating system (Windows/Linux). However, many people believe that the system design, and the /relatively/ integrated nature of the various applications is a good enough reason to switch. YMMV, - Rahul. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Developing for Mac Browsers
Firefox renders pretty close on both systems, but you may find more differences between other browsers. A browser testing grid is helpful but not as helpful as few instances of XP with different browsers running in virtualisation. But don't get a mac just for testing sites on a mac, that you can do with emulators to some degree, get a mac for it's user interface, good free apps, ease of installing a full LAMP web server on, cross platform compatibility (using parallels or VMWare Fusion), ease of connectivity, tighter intelligent security, user-centred engineering, etc. In the past two years we have had several developers, business specialists and music freaks through the office carting their dells, IBMs, and Vaios through the office. With out any coercion or prodding from any of us in the mac-centric office they _always_ end up buying a mac for themselves and loving the one we give them to work with, including die-hard Ubuntu and XP users. You can buy an OEM XP licence when getting you mac for less than £100 (a mac and a windows box in the same case for less than an extra £100, great!) and with Parallels you can install your LAMP environment as a separate OS, mimicking your live server closely. I have yet to see as good a reason as the one for developers and web designers. But as others have said, it is up to you and how you work and how fast you can get your head round the mac way of working. I DO know that one of our contractors swapped over to a macbook white, maxed out with 4GB ram and a 320GB HD, and managed the transition in about a week. Familiarity with Unix got him halfway there and a few mac-friendly friends and acquaintances helped him out with other questions. Now he is already forgetting his XP shortcuts! But definitely talk o others who made the transition so you feel fully informed. As someone who works in a Mac-XP- server 2004 - Linux - redhat - ubuntu environment, and has to support all of them, I know where I'd put my money! Joe On Jan 13 2008, at 05:51, Peter Mount wrote: Is there a difference between Mac versions of browsers like Firefox and Safari or can I safely develop in non Mac versions and expect my web sites to behave the same on the Mac? Currently my main OS is Kubuntu but I'll soon be trialling Red Hat Desktop 5 Multi OS. Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Developing for Mac Browsers
On 13/01/2008, at 7:18 PM, Matthew Pennell wrote: Unless you're a hardcore PC gamer, why not get an Intel Mac? Then you can run Windows (on Parallels or VMWare or Boot Camp), Linux, and MacOS on the same machine. Plus you get a *nix based OS that is much nicer to develop for than Windows. Even if you are a hardcore gamer, the Mac is a better platform. Booting Windows via Boot Camp is native, and the hardware in the MacBook Pro (for laptops), iMac or Mac Pro (for desktops) is pretty kick-ass. :) cYa, Avi -- MySource Matrix Product Evangelist Sydney / Melbourne / Canberra / Hobart / London / 2/340 Gore Street T: +61 (0) 3 9235 5400 Fitzroy, VIC F: +61 (0) 3 9235 5444 3202 W: http://www.squiz.net/ . Open Source - Own it - Squiz.net ./ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Developing for Mac Browsers
Avi Miller wrote: Even if you are a hardcore gamer, the Mac is a better platform. Booting Windows via Boot Camp is native, and the hardware in the MacBook Pro (for laptops), iMac or Mac Pro (for desktops) is pretty kick-ass. :) cYa, Avi --MySource Matrix Product Evangelist Sydney / Melbourne / Canberra / Hobart / London / 2/340 Gore Street T: +61 (0) 3 9235 5400 Fitzroy, VIC F: +61 (0) 3 9235 5444 3202 W: http://www.squiz.net/ . Open Source - Own it - Squiz.net ./ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Thanks for all the replies. I suppose developing on a Mac is the best way to develop for a Mac Browser. I can't trust Windows for anything important (apart from testing) anymore anyway. I'm not a hardcore gamer so I can look at the Mac Mini or Macbook as well. I'll see what my wallet says in a few months. Have fun -- Peter Mount Web Development for Business Mobile: 0411 276602 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.petermount.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Developing for Mac Browsers
There will be a new announcement this week, I'm sure, so hold on to your hats for the moment, but coming this week there is sure to be a god deal on Intel MacsBooks and Minis. On Jan 13 2008, at 11:09, Peter Mount wrote: Avi Miller wrote: Even if you are a hardcore gamer, the Mac is a better platform. Booting Windows via Boot Camp is native, and the hardware in the MacBook Pro (for laptops), iMac or Mac Pro (for desktops) is pretty kick-ass. :) cYa, Avi --MySource Matrix Product Evangelist Sydney / Melbourne / Canberra / Hobart / London / 2/340 Gore Street T: +61 (0) 3 9235 5400 Fitzroy, VIC F: +61 (0) 3 9235 5444 3202 W: http://www.squiz.net/ . Open Source - Own it - Squiz.net ./ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Thanks for all the replies. I suppose developing on a Mac is the best way to develop for a Mac Browser. I can't trust Windows for anything important (apart from testing) anymore anyway. I'm not a hardcore gamer so I can look at the Mac Mini or Macbook as well. I'll see what my wallet says in a few months. Have fun -- Peter Mount Web Development for Business Mobile: 0411 276602 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.petermount.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Developing for Mac Browsers
Peter Mount wrote: I'm not a hardcore gamer so I can look at the Mac Mini or Macbook as well. I'll see what my wallet says in a few months. My Mini still kicks arse and it's only PPC! Get as much memory as it can eat, and a big hard drive, if you're going to run virtual machines, as they can really chew up disk. I also run XP and Ubuntu on other boxen, but the Mac is the machine I prefer to use. I was a late convert ;-) cheers mark *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Developing for Mac Browsers
Joe Ortenzi wrote: There will be a new announcement this week, I'm sure, so hold on to your hats for the moment, but coming this week there is sure to be a god deal on Intel MacsBooks and Minis. Will the atheists have a good deal too? -- Peter Mount Web Development for Business Mobile: 0411 276602 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.petermount.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Developing for Mac Browsers
can I safely develop in non Mac versions and expect my web sites to behave the same on the Mac? Behave? Yes. But... I don't think anyone's made this point yet -- one key difference between the platforms is the display of form elements. Elements like buttons and select menus and checkboxes, etc., pretty much belong to the operating system and the browser is only borrowing them. If your design has an expectation that those elements can be finely controlled, cross-platform, then you might get an unpleasant surprise. For instance, if you have documentation which says click on the button which looks like this [image of the button from a Windows browser] then Mac users may not have a button which looks like that. == The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments == *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Developing for Mac Browsers
On 14/01/2008, John Horner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For instance, if you have documentation which says click on the button which looks like this [image of the button from a Windows browser] then Mac users may not have a button which looks like that. The person using your page might not be looking at your page or clicking either =) best bet is to use on clear labelling of your form controls not on interpreting the visual design. for a momentary distraction on the importance of labelling see: http://www.ok-cancel.com/comic/28.html -- kind regards, Terrence Wood *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Developing for Mac Browsers
yeowtch! Several points here. The form elements come from the browser, not the API. fire up safari and firefox on your mac and you will see this. Safari has that silly round button thing and firefox has a more windowsy set of form elements. two: you can style form elements in css but safari doesn't play as well as firefox does in honouring your display. three: you should NEVER have guidance like click on the button which looks like this! gawd! You should be designing a form which is self explanatory and if it requires guidance, the guidance should be in the form itself, perhaps with mouseover text so it is accessibility compliant. How do those with poor site look for your button? They shouldn't have to, the button should announce itself for all to understand! Sorry for the rant . but really Joe On Jan 14 2008, at 01:47, John Horner wrote: can I safely develop in non Mac versions and expect my web sites to behave the same on the Mac? Behave? Yes. But... I don't think anyone's made this point yet -- one key difference between the platforms is the display of form elements. Elements like buttons and select menus and checkboxes, etc., pretty much belong to the operating system and the browser is only borrowing them. If your design has an expectation that those elements can be finely controlled, cross-platform, then you might get an unpleasant surprise. For instance, if you have documentation which says click on the button which looks like this [image of the button from a Windows browser] then Mac users may not have a button which looks like that. == The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments == *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Developing for Mac Browsers
Hi I'm tossing up whether to buy a Mac or to save my money and buy a new PC and just have Linux and Windows on it. I've read that Safari for Windows will help Web Developers without a Mac be able to develop for that. Is there a difference between Mac versions of browsers like Firefox and Safari or can I safely develop in non Mac versions and expect my web sites to behave the same on the Mac? Currently my main OS is Kubuntu but I'll soon be trialling Red Hat Desktop 5 Multi OS. Thanks -- Peter Mount Web Development for Business Mobile: 0411 276602 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.petermount.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Developing for Mac Browsers
There are some differences between the windows versions and the mac versions, but if it works on windows, it is very likely it will work on mac as well. But aside from buying a mac, you can try to use an emulator or a virtual machine and test the website from there. You can also try to use this site (browsershots) http://browsershots.org/. Good Luck! On Jan 13, 2008 7:51 AM, Peter Mount [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi I'm tossing up whether to buy a Mac or to save my money and buy a new PC and just have Linux and Windows on it. I've read that Safari for Windows will help Web Developers without a Mac be able to develop for that. Is there a difference between Mac versions of browsers like Firefox and Safari or can I safely develop in non Mac versions and expect my web sites to behave the same on the Mac? Currently my main OS is Kubuntu but I'll soon be trialling Red Hat Desktop 5 Multi OS. Thanks -- Peter Mount Web Development for Business Mobile: 0411 276602 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.petermount.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Developing for Mac Browsers
I would try to get an old cheap G3 or something on ebay, you can get them very cheaply and often with OSX installed. The rendering differences between Firefox etc will be similar, but the respective font sizes will be a little different (a little smaller on the mac). Joseph R. B. Taylor /Designer / Developer/ -- Sites by Joe, LLC /Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/ Phone: (609) 335-3076 Fax: (866) 301-8045 Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Peter Mount wrote: Hi I'm tossing up whether to buy a Mac or to save my money and buy a new PC and just have Linux and Windows on it. I've read that Safari for Windows will help Web Developers without a Mac be able to develop for that. Is there a difference between Mac versions of browsers like Firefox and Safari or can I safely develop in non Mac versions and expect my web sites to behave the same on the Mac? Currently my main OS is Kubuntu but I'll soon be trialling Red Hat Desktop 5 Multi OS. Thanks *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***begin:vcard fn:Joseph Taylor n:Taylor;Joseph org:Sites by Joe, LLC adr:;;408 Route 47 South;Cape May Court House;NJ;08210;USA email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Designer / Developer tel;work:609-335-3076 tel;fax:866-301-8045 tel;cell:609-335-3076 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://sitesbyjoe.com version:2.1 end:vcard
