RE: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare

2008-04-30 Thread Jens-Uwe Korff
Hi Thom,

finally someone who addressed my original question ;-)

We'd tested a few sites, build over the last 18...24 months, and I'm not
sure about how much IE-only styles there are. I guess the doctype is
mainly XHTML Transitional if at all.

I hope once IE8 is out of beta we'll have more joy...

Cheers,
 
Jens 

-Original Message-

My own experience was that IE8 was rendering surprisingly well. I use
conditional comments to fix IE issues, however they where targeting IE
lte 7 so IE8 wasn't getting any fixes. But it didn't need to. That's
with strict XHTML doctype. Haven't tried any other.

-Thom

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Re: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare

2008-04-30 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun

Jens-Uwe Korff wrote:


Did anyone do some more testing with IE8?


Yes, and I've concluded here...
http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_additions_32.html


Do we know any better release date than mid year?


The later the better, as the IE-team got plenty left to fix if they want
IE8 to end up as a serious replacement for earlier versions.

regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no


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Re: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare

2008-04-30 Thread Thomas Thomassen
If there isn't any doctype you won't have to worry. IE8 will use the old 
render engines for that.


--
From: Jens-Uwe Korff [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 10:07 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare


Hi Thom,

finally someone who addressed my original question ;-)

We'd tested a few sites, build over the last 18...24 months, and I'm not
sure about how much IE-only styles there are. I guess the doctype is
mainly XHTML Transitional if at all.

I hope once IE8 is out of beta we'll have more joy...

Cheers,

Jens

-Original Message-

My own experience was that IE8 was rendering surprisingly well. I use
conditional comments to fix IE issues, however they where targeting IE
lte 7 so IE8 wasn't getting any fixes. But it didn't need to. That's
with strict XHTML doctype. Haven't tried any other.

-Thom

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[WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare

2008-04-29 Thread Jens-Uwe Korff
Hi community,

we just did some testing of our sites in IE8 beta and got some ahhhs and
ohhhs - not because of its standard compliance, rather because all sites
seem to be broken: logos disappeared, elements misplaced, Google maps
blown up, etc.

Did anyone do some more testing with IE8?

Do we know any better release date than mid year? 

Thanks,
 
Jens 

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Re: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare

2008-04-29 Thread Dave Woods
Don't fix or change anything in your site to be compatible with a beta
version.

The beta version is available so that developers can report problems to
Microsoft so that any bugs can be fixed for the final release. By changing
your code now, you're likely to find that you'll need to change it again
when the final release of IE8 is made available.

If you're already getting a significant number of IE8 users (which is
probably unlikely) then do as Rahul suggests and use the meta tag to force
IE7 rendering mode.

Hope that helps?

Dave
--
http://www.dave-woods.co.uk



2008/4/29 Rahul Gonsalves [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 On 29-Apr-08, at 12:40 PM, Jens-Uwe Korff wrote:

  we just did some testing of our sites in IE8 beta and got some ahhhs and
  ohhhs - not because of its standard compliance, rather because all sites
  seem to be broken: logos disappeared, elements misplaced, Google maps
  blown up, etc.
 

 Dare I say:
 meta http-equiv=X-UA-Compatible content=IE=7 /

 Does that not give you enough time to fix the issues with the new layout
 engine and then remove it/set it to content=IE=8?

 Or have I misunderstood how IE works? I frequently do.

 Best,
  - Rahul.



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Re: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare

2008-04-29 Thread Sam Sherlock
looks like another quagmire is about to open up;

funny how I still feel that I am getting over ie6

2008/4/29 Dave Woods [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 Don't fix or change anything in your site to be compatible with a beta
 version.

 The beta version is available so that developers can report problems to
 Microsoft so that any bugs can be fixed for the final release. By changing
 your code now, you're likely to find that you'll need to change it again
 when the final release of IE8 is made available.

 If you're already getting a significant number of IE8 users (which is
 probably unlikely) then do as Rahul suggests and use the meta tag to force
 IE7 rendering mode.

 Hope that helps?

 Dave
 --
 http://www.dave-woods.co.uk



 2008/4/29 Rahul Gonsalves [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 On 29-Apr-08, at 12:40 PM, Jens-Uwe Korff wrote:
 
   we just did some testing of our sites in IE8 beta and got some ahhhs
   and
   ohhhs - not because of its standard compliance, rather because all
   sites
   seem to be broken: logos disappeared, elements misplaced, Google maps
   blown up, etc.
  
 
  Dare I say:
  meta http-equiv=X-UA-Compatible content=IE=7 /
 
  Does that not give you enough time to fix the issues with the new layout
  engine and then remove it/set it to content=IE=8?
 
  Or have I misunderstood how IE works? I frequently do.
 
  Best,
   - Rahul.
 
 
 
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Re: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare

2008-04-29 Thread James Jeffery
Microsoft should save themselves all the hassle and use the Geko engine.
There IE still gets shipped with
every version of Windows.

They have created a nice operating system for general users and by changing
their engine to an open source
one is not going to decrease sales in their O/S.

This isn't the end of the IE bugs. I can put my house on it there will be
more to come.

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 9:04 AM, Sam Sherlock [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 looks like another quagmire is about to open up;

 funny how I still feel that I am getting over ie6

 2008/4/29 Dave Woods [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 Don't fix or change anything in your site to be compatible with a beta
 version.

 The beta version is available so that developers can report problems to
 Microsoft so that any bugs can be fixed for the final release. By changing
 your code now, you're likely to find that you'll need to change it again
 when the final release of IE8 is made available.

 If you're already getting a significant number of IE8 users (which is
 probably unlikely) then do as Rahul suggests and use the meta tag to force
 IE7 rendering mode.

 Hope that helps?

 Dave
 --
 http://www.dave-woods.co.uk



 2008/4/29 Rahul Gonsalves [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 On 29-Apr-08, at 12:40 PM, Jens-Uwe Korff wrote:

  we just did some testing of our sites in IE8 beta and got some ahhhs and
 ohhhs - not because of its standard compliance, rather because all sites
 seem to be broken: logos disappeared, elements misplaced, Google maps
 blown up, etc.


 Dare I say:
 meta http-equiv=X-UA-Compatible content=IE=7 /

 Does that not give you enough time to fix the issues with the new layout
 engine and then remove it/set it to content=IE=8?

 Or have I misunderstood how IE works? I frequently do.

 Best,
  - Rahul.



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Re: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare

2008-04-29 Thread James Jeffery
Ha Ha, i like name inferior explorer. Maybe someone should set up the domain
name and allow people to comment on I.E for MS to see.

I've said it many times, MS try to outdo the competition and invent their
own mad functions and methods of doing things. You have Mozilla
that are promoting a standard and you have MS who are following (to some
extent) the standard and also inventing their own.

What developer on this planet is going to take advantage of a feature thats
been put into IE and not Mozilla, or any other browser engine for
that matter. Thats like giving one user one thing and another user another.

They are going to slice their own heads off.

I hate to get into the Unix vs. Windows debate but for reasons like this and
others related to MS inventing their own standards, Linux will
eventually take over. Didn't MS try to invent their own version of XML, or
something like that? I remember seeing a petition in college about
it.




On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 9:35 AM, Sam Sherlock [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 Ideas stuff and various work right off the bat with ff and opera tweaking
 ie can go on for weeks and often requires loads of compromises

 the list of issues with ie browsers hurts my noggin

 I can't see m$ using geko though (it would be admitting the competition is
 better) I wish they would, shame it would be better for everyone


 should be forever reffered to as inferior explorer :)
 - S

 2008/4/29 James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 Microsoft should save themselves all the hassle and use the Geko engine.
 There IE still gets shipped with
 every version of Windows.

 They have created a nice operating system for general users and by
 changing their engine to an open source
 one is not going to decrease sales in their O/S.

 This isn't the end of the IE bugs. I can put my house on it there will be
 more to come.

 On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 9:04 AM, Sam Sherlock [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:

 looks like another quagmire is about to open up;

 funny how I still feel that I am getting over ie6

 2008/4/29 Dave Woods [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 Don't fix or change anything in your site to be compatible with a beta
 version.

 The beta version is available so that developers can report problems to
 Microsoft so that any bugs can be fixed for the final release. By changing
 your code now, you're likely to find that you'll need to change it again
 when the final release of IE8 is made available.

 If you're already getting a significant number of IE8 users (which is
 probably unlikely) then do as Rahul suggests and use the meta tag to force
 IE7 rendering mode.

 Hope that helps?

 Dave
 --
 http://www.dave-woods.co.uk



 2008/4/29 Rahul Gonsalves [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 On 29-Apr-08, at 12:40 PM, Jens-Uwe Korff wrote:

  we just did some testing of our sites in IE8 beta and got some ahhhs
 and
 ohhhs - not because of its standard compliance, rather because all
 sites
 seem to be broken: logos disappeared, elements misplaced, Google maps
 blown up, etc.


 Dare I say:
 meta http-equiv=X-UA-Compatible content=IE=7 /

 Does that not give you enough time to fix the issues with the new
 layout engine and then remove it/set it to content=IE=8?

 Or have I misunderstood how IE works? I frequently do.

 Best,
  - Rahul.



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RE: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare

2008-04-29 Thread michael.brockington
   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Jeffery
   Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 10:23 AM
   To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
  Subject: Re: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare
 
snip
 
   What developer on this planet is going to take advantage of a
feature thats been put into IE and not Mozilla 
 
That would be pragmatic Intranet developers, who know that they only
need to worry about IE, with a specific version, on a specific version
of Windows, and know that their bonus depends not on quality but on
deadlines.
 
Sad, but true.
 
Mike
 


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Re: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare

2008-04-29 Thread Mark Harris

James Jeffery wrote:


What developer on this planet is going to take advantage of a feature thats
been put into IE and not Mozilla, or any other browser engine for
that matter. Thats like giving one user one thing and another user another.



But- but- but- *everybody* uses Windows!  Why would you use anything else?


It's precisely because this happened over the last 10 years or so that 
lists like this exist.


James, meet clue. I think you may get on well together.


cheers

mark


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Re: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare

2008-04-29 Thread Dave Woods
* I've said it many times, MS try to outdo the competition and invent
their own mad functions and methods of doing things. You have Mozilla that
are promoting a standard and you have MS who are following (to some extent)
the standard and also inventing their own.*

Maybe a few years ago but Microsoft are following standards much better
these days and pass the ACID2 test with IE8.
*
 What developer on this planet is going to take advantage of a feature
thats been put into IE and not Mozilla, or any other browser engine for that
matter. Thats like giving one user one thing and another user another.*

But that's exactly why Microsoft are having the problems that they are ;o) A
lot of developers DID take advantage of features of IE during the browser
wars and because so many intranet's and business critical applications now
rely on these systems, businesses can't upgrade for fear of breaking them,
hence the reason why IE6 is taking so long to disappear.

I fully believe that Microsoft are heading in the right direction though and
whilst I don't agree with everything that Microsoft have done in the past,
they are taking the right steps to improve the browser and are at least
listening to the developer community.

As I mentioned earlier though... Internet Explorer 8 beta 1 is NOT the final
release of the browser and it will hopefully have bugs fixed when the final
release hits the market. Use it for browsing the web, having a look at your
sites, using its new features and reporting bugs back to Microsoft but it
shouldn't be used for the production of websites just yet.

Thanks
Dave
- - - - -
http://www.dave-woods.co.uk




2008/4/29 James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 Ha Ha, i like name inferior explorer. Maybe someone should set up the
 domain name and allow people to comment on I.E for MS to see.

 I've said it many times, MS try to outdo the competition and invent their
 own mad functions and methods of doing things. You have Mozilla
 that are promoting a standard and you have MS who are following (to some
 extent) the standard and also inventing their own.

 What developer on this planet is going to take advantage of a feature
 thats been put into IE and not Mozilla, or any other browser engine for
 that matter. Thats like giving one user one thing and another user
 another.

 They are going to slice their own heads off.

 I hate to get into the Unix vs. Windows debate but for reasons like this
 and others related to MS inventing their own standards, Linux will
 eventually take over. Didn't MS try to invent their own version of XML, or
 something like that? I remember seeing a petition in college about
 it.




 On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 9:35 AM, Sam Sherlock [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:

  Ideas stuff and various work right off the bat with ff and opera
  tweaking ie can go on for weeks and often requires loads of compromises
 
  the list of issues with ie browsers hurts my noggin
 
  I can't see m$ using geko though (it would be admitting the competition
  is better) I wish they would, shame it would be better for everyone
 
 
  should be forever reffered to as inferior explorer :)
  - S
 
  2008/4/29 James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 
   Microsoft should save themselves all the hassle and use the Geko
   engine. There IE still gets shipped with
   every version of Windows.
  
   They have created a nice operating system for general users and by
   changing their engine to an open source
   one is not going to decrease sales in their O/S.
  
   This isn't the end of the IE bugs. I can put my house on it there will
   be more to come.
  
   On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 9:04 AM, Sam Sherlock [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   wrote:
  
looks like another quagmire is about to open up;
   
funny how I still feel that I am getting over ie6
   
2008/4/29 Dave Woods [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
   
Don't fix or change anything in your site to be compatible with a
 beta version.

 The beta version is available so that developers can report
 problems to Microsoft so that any bugs can be fixed for the final 
 release.
 By changing your code now, you're likely to find that you'll need to 
 change
 it again when the final release of IE8 is made available.

 If you're already getting a significant number of IE8 users (which
 is probably unlikely) then do as Rahul suggests and use the meta tag 
 to
 force IE7 rendering mode.

 Hope that helps?

 Dave
 --
 http://www.dave-woods.co.uk



 2008/4/29 Rahul Gonsalves [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 On 29-Apr-08, at 12:40 PM, Jens-Uwe Korff wrote:
 
   we just did some testing of our sites in IE8 beta and got some
   ahhhs and
   ohhhs - not because of its standard compliance, rather because
   all sites
   seem to be broken: logos disappeared, elements misplaced,
   Google maps
   blown up, etc.
  
 
  Dare I say:
  meta http-equiv=X-UA-Compatible 

RE: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare

2008-04-29 Thread michael.brockington
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Harris
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 10:48 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 That would be pragmatic Intranet developers, who know that they only 
 need to worry about IE, with a specific version, on a 
specific version 
 of Windows, and know that their bonus depends not on quality but on 
 deadlines.
  
You're limiting the damage, Michael. What about all those who bought
(buy!) Frontpage or had it installed as part of their select agreement.

 Sad, but true.
  
Well, on that we agree ;-)

cheers

mark



I doubt if many of the people on this list would regard the users of
Frontpage as 'Developers', but your point is totally valid!

Mike


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Re: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare

2008-04-29 Thread Andrew Maben

On Apr 29, 2008, at 5:22 AM, James Jeffery wrote:

What developer on this planet is going to take advantage of a  
feature thats been put into IE and not Mozilla?


Alas, all too many... can you say ActiveX? how about .NET?  
Whatcha gonna do when boss/client demands some glitzy gizmo found on  
some IE-only site? I mean universal access is a wonderful ideal, but  
let's face it, it's still a pretty hard sell.


And to be fair, M$ has put forward the occasional useful innovation...

Andrew







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Re: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare

2008-04-29 Thread Joseph Ortenzi
Most of what I've seen people put into ActiveX and .NET can be done  
otherwise by clever developers and still be standards compliant or at  
least, cross-browser-compliant.


If you need to write proprietary code that is browser specific you are  
not adhering to web standards. either it is important or it isn't, no  
fence-sitting allowed..



On Apr 29, 2008, at 17:19, Andrew Maben wrote:


On Apr 29, 2008, at 5:22 AM, James Jeffery wrote:

What developer on this planet is going to take advantage of a  
feature thats been put into IE and not Mozilla?


Alas, all too many... can you say ActiveX? how about .NET?  
Whatcha gonna do when boss/client demands some glitzy gizmo found on  
some IE-only site? I mean universal access is a wonderful ideal, but  
let's face it, it's still a pretty hard sell.


And to be fair, M$ has put forward the occasional useful innovation...

Andrew






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==
Joe Ortenzi
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




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Re: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare

2008-04-29 Thread Andrew Maben

On Apr 29, 2008, at 12:41 PM, Joseph Ortenzi wrote:

Most of what I've seen people put into ActiveX and .NET can be done  
otherwise by clever developers and still be standards compliant or  
at least, cross-browser-compliant.


If you need to write proprietary code that is browser specific you  
are not adhering to web standards. either it is important or it  
isn't, no fence-sitting allowed..


well, obviously. and furthermore this is the web standards group, so  
i thought that it would pretty much go without saying.


I was just making the point that there are (way too) many developers  
who are obliged by their employment situation to do things they might  
prefer not to, and worse there are others who aren't even aware that  
there's a fence.


Just because everyone *could* be writing standards-compliant pages,  
sadly that does *not* mean that we can expect that it will become  
common practice in the foreseeable future. I would hope it's  
reasonable to suppose that everyone in this group is committed to  
standards. I'm sorry if it's now heretical to point out that not  
everyone shares our commitment, and that some of us are sometimes  
obliged to cross the line...


Andrew







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