RE: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare
Hi Thom, finally someone who addressed my original question ;-) We'd tested a few sites, build over the last 18...24 months, and I'm not sure about how much IE-only styles there are. I guess the doctype is mainly XHTML Transitional if at all. I hope once IE8 is out of beta we'll have more joy... Cheers, Jens -Original Message- My own experience was that IE8 was rendering surprisingly well. I use conditional comments to fix IE issues, however they where targeting IE lte 7 so IE8 wasn't getting any fixes. But it didn't need to. That's with strict XHTML doctype. Haven't tried any other. -Thom The information contained in this e-mail message and any accompanying files is or may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, dissemination, reliance, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail or any attached files is unauthorised. This e-mail is subject to copyright. No part of it should be reproduced, adapted or communicated without the written consent of the copyright owner. If you have received this e-mail in error please advise the sender immediately by return e-mail or telephone and delete all copies. Fairfax does not guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained in this e-mail or attached files. Internet communications are not secure, therefore Fairfax does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message or attached files. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare
Jens-Uwe Korff wrote: Did anyone do some more testing with IE8? Yes, and I've concluded here... http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_additions_32.html Do we know any better release date than mid year? The later the better, as the IE-team got plenty left to fix if they want IE8 to end up as a serious replacement for earlier versions. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare
If there isn't any doctype you won't have to worry. IE8 will use the old render engines for that. -- From: Jens-Uwe Korff [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 10:07 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare Hi Thom, finally someone who addressed my original question ;-) We'd tested a few sites, build over the last 18...24 months, and I'm not sure about how much IE-only styles there are. I guess the doctype is mainly XHTML Transitional if at all. I hope once IE8 is out of beta we'll have more joy... Cheers, Jens -Original Message- My own experience was that IE8 was rendering surprisingly well. I use conditional comments to fix IE issues, however they where targeting IE lte 7 so IE8 wasn't getting any fixes. But it didn't need to. That's with strict XHTML doctype. Haven't tried any other. -Thom The information contained in this e-mail message and any accompanying files is or may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, dissemination, reliance, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail or any attached files is unauthorised. This e-mail is subject to copyright. No part of it should be reproduced, adapted or communicated without the written consent of the copyright owner. If you have received this e-mail in error please advise the sender immediately by return e-mail or telephone and delete all copies. Fairfax does not guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained in this e-mail or attached files. Internet communications are not secure, therefore Fairfax does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message or attached files. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare
Hi community, we just did some testing of our sites in IE8 beta and got some ahhhs and ohhhs - not because of its standard compliance, rather because all sites seem to be broken: logos disappeared, elements misplaced, Google maps blown up, etc. Did anyone do some more testing with IE8? Do we know any better release date than mid year? Thanks, Jens The information contained in this e-mail message and any accompanying files is or may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, dissemination, reliance, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail or any attached files is unauthorised. This e-mail is subject to copyright. No part of it should be reproduced, adapted or communicated without the written consent of the copyright owner. If you have received this e-mail in error please advise the sender immediately by return e-mail or telephone and delete all copies. Fairfax does not guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained in this e-mail or attached files. Internet communications are not secure, therefore Fairfax does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message or attached files. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare
Don't fix or change anything in your site to be compatible with a beta version. The beta version is available so that developers can report problems to Microsoft so that any bugs can be fixed for the final release. By changing your code now, you're likely to find that you'll need to change it again when the final release of IE8 is made available. If you're already getting a significant number of IE8 users (which is probably unlikely) then do as Rahul suggests and use the meta tag to force IE7 rendering mode. Hope that helps? Dave -- http://www.dave-woods.co.uk 2008/4/29 Rahul Gonsalves [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 29-Apr-08, at 12:40 PM, Jens-Uwe Korff wrote: we just did some testing of our sites in IE8 beta and got some ahhhs and ohhhs - not because of its standard compliance, rather because all sites seem to be broken: logos disappeared, elements misplaced, Google maps blown up, etc. Dare I say: meta http-equiv=X-UA-Compatible content=IE=7 / Does that not give you enough time to fix the issues with the new layout engine and then remove it/set it to content=IE=8? Or have I misunderstood how IE works? I frequently do. Best, - Rahul. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare
looks like another quagmire is about to open up; funny how I still feel that I am getting over ie6 2008/4/29 Dave Woods [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Don't fix or change anything in your site to be compatible with a beta version. The beta version is available so that developers can report problems to Microsoft so that any bugs can be fixed for the final release. By changing your code now, you're likely to find that you'll need to change it again when the final release of IE8 is made available. If you're already getting a significant number of IE8 users (which is probably unlikely) then do as Rahul suggests and use the meta tag to force IE7 rendering mode. Hope that helps? Dave -- http://www.dave-woods.co.uk 2008/4/29 Rahul Gonsalves [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 29-Apr-08, at 12:40 PM, Jens-Uwe Korff wrote: we just did some testing of our sites in IE8 beta and got some ahhhs and ohhhs - not because of its standard compliance, rather because all sites seem to be broken: logos disappeared, elements misplaced, Google maps blown up, etc. Dare I say: meta http-equiv=X-UA-Compatible content=IE=7 / Does that not give you enough time to fix the issues with the new layout engine and then remove it/set it to content=IE=8? Or have I misunderstood how IE works? I frequently do. Best, - Rahul. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare
Microsoft should save themselves all the hassle and use the Geko engine. There IE still gets shipped with every version of Windows. They have created a nice operating system for general users and by changing their engine to an open source one is not going to decrease sales in their O/S. This isn't the end of the IE bugs. I can put my house on it there will be more to come. On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 9:04 AM, Sam Sherlock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: looks like another quagmire is about to open up; funny how I still feel that I am getting over ie6 2008/4/29 Dave Woods [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Don't fix or change anything in your site to be compatible with a beta version. The beta version is available so that developers can report problems to Microsoft so that any bugs can be fixed for the final release. By changing your code now, you're likely to find that you'll need to change it again when the final release of IE8 is made available. If you're already getting a significant number of IE8 users (which is probably unlikely) then do as Rahul suggests and use the meta tag to force IE7 rendering mode. Hope that helps? Dave -- http://www.dave-woods.co.uk 2008/4/29 Rahul Gonsalves [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 29-Apr-08, at 12:40 PM, Jens-Uwe Korff wrote: we just did some testing of our sites in IE8 beta and got some ahhhs and ohhhs - not because of its standard compliance, rather because all sites seem to be broken: logos disappeared, elements misplaced, Google maps blown up, etc. Dare I say: meta http-equiv=X-UA-Compatible content=IE=7 / Does that not give you enough time to fix the issues with the new layout engine and then remove it/set it to content=IE=8? Or have I misunderstood how IE works? I frequently do. Best, - Rahul. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare
Ha Ha, i like name inferior explorer. Maybe someone should set up the domain name and allow people to comment on I.E for MS to see. I've said it many times, MS try to outdo the competition and invent their own mad functions and methods of doing things. You have Mozilla that are promoting a standard and you have MS who are following (to some extent) the standard and also inventing their own. What developer on this planet is going to take advantage of a feature thats been put into IE and not Mozilla, or any other browser engine for that matter. Thats like giving one user one thing and another user another. They are going to slice their own heads off. I hate to get into the Unix vs. Windows debate but for reasons like this and others related to MS inventing their own standards, Linux will eventually take over. Didn't MS try to invent their own version of XML, or something like that? I remember seeing a petition in college about it. On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 9:35 AM, Sam Sherlock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ideas stuff and various work right off the bat with ff and opera tweaking ie can go on for weeks and often requires loads of compromises the list of issues with ie browsers hurts my noggin I can't see m$ using geko though (it would be admitting the competition is better) I wish they would, shame it would be better for everyone should be forever reffered to as inferior explorer :) - S 2008/4/29 James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Microsoft should save themselves all the hassle and use the Geko engine. There IE still gets shipped with every version of Windows. They have created a nice operating system for general users and by changing their engine to an open source one is not going to decrease sales in their O/S. This isn't the end of the IE bugs. I can put my house on it there will be more to come. On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 9:04 AM, Sam Sherlock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: looks like another quagmire is about to open up; funny how I still feel that I am getting over ie6 2008/4/29 Dave Woods [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Don't fix or change anything in your site to be compatible with a beta version. The beta version is available so that developers can report problems to Microsoft so that any bugs can be fixed for the final release. By changing your code now, you're likely to find that you'll need to change it again when the final release of IE8 is made available. If you're already getting a significant number of IE8 users (which is probably unlikely) then do as Rahul suggests and use the meta tag to force IE7 rendering mode. Hope that helps? Dave -- http://www.dave-woods.co.uk 2008/4/29 Rahul Gonsalves [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 29-Apr-08, at 12:40 PM, Jens-Uwe Korff wrote: we just did some testing of our sites in IE8 beta and got some ahhhs and ohhhs - not because of its standard compliance, rather because all sites seem to be broken: logos disappeared, elements misplaced, Google maps blown up, etc. Dare I say: meta http-equiv=X-UA-Compatible content=IE=7 / Does that not give you enough time to fix the issues with the new layout engine and then remove it/set it to content=IE=8? Or have I misunderstood how IE works? I frequently do. Best, - Rahul. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Jeffery Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 10:23 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare snip What developer on this planet is going to take advantage of a feature thats been put into IE and not Mozilla That would be pragmatic Intranet developers, who know that they only need to worry about IE, with a specific version, on a specific version of Windows, and know that their bonus depends not on quality but on deadlines. Sad, but true. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare
James Jeffery wrote: What developer on this planet is going to take advantage of a feature thats been put into IE and not Mozilla, or any other browser engine for that matter. Thats like giving one user one thing and another user another. But- but- but- *everybody* uses Windows! Why would you use anything else? It's precisely because this happened over the last 10 years or so that lists like this exist. James, meet clue. I think you may get on well together. cheers mark *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare
* I've said it many times, MS try to outdo the competition and invent their own mad functions and methods of doing things. You have Mozilla that are promoting a standard and you have MS who are following (to some extent) the standard and also inventing their own.* Maybe a few years ago but Microsoft are following standards much better these days and pass the ACID2 test with IE8. * What developer on this planet is going to take advantage of a feature thats been put into IE and not Mozilla, or any other browser engine for that matter. Thats like giving one user one thing and another user another.* But that's exactly why Microsoft are having the problems that they are ;o) A lot of developers DID take advantage of features of IE during the browser wars and because so many intranet's and business critical applications now rely on these systems, businesses can't upgrade for fear of breaking them, hence the reason why IE6 is taking so long to disappear. I fully believe that Microsoft are heading in the right direction though and whilst I don't agree with everything that Microsoft have done in the past, they are taking the right steps to improve the browser and are at least listening to the developer community. As I mentioned earlier though... Internet Explorer 8 beta 1 is NOT the final release of the browser and it will hopefully have bugs fixed when the final release hits the market. Use it for browsing the web, having a look at your sites, using its new features and reporting bugs back to Microsoft but it shouldn't be used for the production of websites just yet. Thanks Dave - - - - - http://www.dave-woods.co.uk 2008/4/29 James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Ha Ha, i like name inferior explorer. Maybe someone should set up the domain name and allow people to comment on I.E for MS to see. I've said it many times, MS try to outdo the competition and invent their own mad functions and methods of doing things. You have Mozilla that are promoting a standard and you have MS who are following (to some extent) the standard and also inventing their own. What developer on this planet is going to take advantage of a feature thats been put into IE and not Mozilla, or any other browser engine for that matter. Thats like giving one user one thing and another user another. They are going to slice their own heads off. I hate to get into the Unix vs. Windows debate but for reasons like this and others related to MS inventing their own standards, Linux will eventually take over. Didn't MS try to invent their own version of XML, or something like that? I remember seeing a petition in college about it. On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 9:35 AM, Sam Sherlock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ideas stuff and various work right off the bat with ff and opera tweaking ie can go on for weeks and often requires loads of compromises the list of issues with ie browsers hurts my noggin I can't see m$ using geko though (it would be admitting the competition is better) I wish they would, shame it would be better for everyone should be forever reffered to as inferior explorer :) - S 2008/4/29 James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Microsoft should save themselves all the hassle and use the Geko engine. There IE still gets shipped with every version of Windows. They have created a nice operating system for general users and by changing their engine to an open source one is not going to decrease sales in their O/S. This isn't the end of the IE bugs. I can put my house on it there will be more to come. On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 9:04 AM, Sam Sherlock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: looks like another quagmire is about to open up; funny how I still feel that I am getting over ie6 2008/4/29 Dave Woods [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Don't fix or change anything in your site to be compatible with a beta version. The beta version is available so that developers can report problems to Microsoft so that any bugs can be fixed for the final release. By changing your code now, you're likely to find that you'll need to change it again when the final release of IE8 is made available. If you're already getting a significant number of IE8 users (which is probably unlikely) then do as Rahul suggests and use the meta tag to force IE7 rendering mode. Hope that helps? Dave -- http://www.dave-woods.co.uk 2008/4/29 Rahul Gonsalves [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 29-Apr-08, at 12:40 PM, Jens-Uwe Korff wrote: we just did some testing of our sites in IE8 beta and got some ahhhs and ohhhs - not because of its standard compliance, rather because all sites seem to be broken: logos disappeared, elements misplaced, Google maps blown up, etc. Dare I say: meta http-equiv=X-UA-Compatible
RE: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Harris Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 10:48 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That would be pragmatic Intranet developers, who know that they only need to worry about IE, with a specific version, on a specific version of Windows, and know that their bonus depends not on quality but on deadlines. You're limiting the damage, Michael. What about all those who bought (buy!) Frontpage or had it installed as part of their select agreement. Sad, but true. Well, on that we agree ;-) cheers mark I doubt if many of the people on this list would regard the users of Frontpage as 'Developers', but your point is totally valid! Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare
On Apr 29, 2008, at 5:22 AM, James Jeffery wrote: What developer on this planet is going to take advantage of a feature thats been put into IE and not Mozilla? Alas, all too many... can you say ActiveX? how about .NET? Whatcha gonna do when boss/client demands some glitzy gizmo found on some IE-only site? I mean universal access is a wonderful ideal, but let's face it, it's still a pretty hard sell. And to be fair, M$ has put forward the occasional useful innovation... Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare
Most of what I've seen people put into ActiveX and .NET can be done otherwise by clever developers and still be standards compliant or at least, cross-browser-compliant. If you need to write proprietary code that is browser specific you are not adhering to web standards. either it is important or it isn't, no fence-sitting allowed.. On Apr 29, 2008, at 17:19, Andrew Maben wrote: On Apr 29, 2008, at 5:22 AM, James Jeffery wrote: What developer on this planet is going to take advantage of a feature thats been put into IE and not Mozilla? Alas, all too many... can you say ActiveX? how about .NET? Whatcha gonna do when boss/client demands some glitzy gizmo found on some IE-only site? I mean universal access is a wonderful ideal, but let's face it, it's still a pretty hard sell. And to be fair, M$ has put forward the occasional useful innovation... Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** == Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare
On Apr 29, 2008, at 12:41 PM, Joseph Ortenzi wrote: Most of what I've seen people put into ActiveX and .NET can be done otherwise by clever developers and still be standards compliant or at least, cross-browser-compliant. If you need to write proprietary code that is browser specific you are not adhering to web standards. either it is important or it isn't, no fence-sitting allowed.. well, obviously. and furthermore this is the web standards group, so i thought that it would pretty much go without saying. I was just making the point that there are (way too) many developers who are obliged by their employment situation to do things they might prefer not to, and worse there are others who aren't even aware that there's a fence. Just because everyone *could* be writing standards-compliant pages, sadly that does *not* mean that we can expect that it will become common practice in the foreseeable future. I would hope it's reasonable to suppose that everyone in this group is committed to standards. I'm sorry if it's now heretical to point out that not everyone shares our commitment, and that some of us are sometimes obliged to cross the line... Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***