Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI

2007-10-14 Thread Kit Grose

You're right;

innerHTML is much, much, MUCH faster to execute (see http:// 
www.quirksmode.org/dom/innerhtml.html for numbers). It's also quicker  
to code and to implement.


However it leaves you with less handles on the elements you're  
inserting, and 'feels' wrong (in the same way that sometimes a big  
table is the easiest way to centre content, but doesn't feel right),  
standards-wise.


I'm a big fan of JS libraries. I use Prototype (and Script.aculo.us)  
and YUI quite a lot as the basis of a lot of my larger JS-based  
sites. The advantage of YUI isn't so much its ability to maintain  
strong standards, but its very strong cross-browser compatibility (so  
if you use Yahoo.DOM, you're getting a standard DOM across every  
browser; as with events, etc.).


Prototype's biggest strength is its ability to keep common functions  
short and simple in your own code files. I can perform complex AJAX  
throughout a webapp with maybe three lines of JS (plenty of PHP, mind  
you).


I've never really tried jQuery, because it's been marketed wrong for  
me. I've been using Javascript since ~1998 and have been doing things  
with it the old way (when everyone declared their variables on a  
global scope and functions were all called on the onclick,  
onmouseover events explicitly in code, and when anything fancy was  
called DHTML). I've spent the years since then developing my syntax  
and thinking to keep in line with the industry, and am comfortable  
with the syntax people have come to associate with new Javascript  
(Object notation, DOM manipulation, etc.). jQuery is marketed as a  
way to change JS syntax significantly (with a view to greater speed,  
marketed as a sort of Rails on the client side), which would mean a  
massive change for someone who already has four different programming/ 
scripting languages to flick between on a daily basis (not counting  
HTML and CSS syntax). I've heard only good things from people  
starting out with JS though.



Cheers,

Kit


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Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI

2007-10-14 Thread David Hucklesby
On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 09:23:04 +1000, Kit Grose wrote:

[...]

 I'm a big fan of JS libraries. I use Prototype (and Script.aculo.us) and YUI 
 quite a
 lot as the basis of a lot of my larger JS-based sites. The advantage of YUI 
 isn't so
 much its ability to maintain strong standards, but its very strong 
 cross-browser
 compatibility (so if you use Yahoo.DOM, you're getting a standard DOM across 
 every
 browser; as with events, etc.).

 Prototype's biggest strength is its ability to keep common functions short 
 and simple
 in your own code files. I can perform complex AJAX throughout a webapp with 
 maybe three
 lines of JS (plenty of PHP, mind you).

 I've never really tried jQuery, because it's been marketed wrong for me. I've 
 been
 using Javascript since ~1998 and have been doing things with it the old way 
 (when
 everyone declared their variables on a global scope and functions were all 
 called on
 the onclick, onmouseover events explicitly in code, and when anything fancy 
 was called
 DHTML). I've spent the years since then developing my syntax and thinking to 
 keep in
 line with the industry, and am comfortable with the syntax people have come to
 associate with new Javascript (Object notation, DOM manipulation, etc.). 
 jQuery is
 marketed as a way to change JS syntax significantly (with a view to greater 
 speed,
 marketed as a sort of Rails on the client side), which would mean a massive 
 change for
 someone who already has four different programming/ scripting languages to 
 flick
 between on a daily basis (not counting HTML and CSS syntax). I've heard only 
 good
 things from people starting out with JS though.


Just chiming in here to say that I think all of Kit's comments are right
on the money.

I was initially very attracted to jQuery because I am much more familiar
with CSS syntax than JavaScript/ECMAScript. However, using it does not
make me a better scripter, while YUI simply gives me cross-browser
routines where I need them, so I can make better choices of technique
as I learn the language.

Protoype etc. I have yet to learn, but I understand the same thing is true.

Cordially,
David
--



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Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI

2007-10-13 Thread Jason Foss
Sorry if this is a bit of a newbie question, but what's the issue with
innerHTML?

On 13/10/2007, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On 10/12/07, Simon Cockayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Hi,
 
  Anyone using jQuery (http://jquery.com/) or Yahoo UI
  (http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/) ?
 
  Do they, help to, build nice Standards based apps?
 
  Am I going to see green lights* in Firefox for standards compliance,
  error-free CSS and Javascript...oh...and will the HTML and CSS validate?

 If you want to absolutely follow standards, make sure you don't use
 any methods that wrap innerHTML. jQuery has one but it also has a
 bunch of methods that use the proper DOM methods (appendElement,
 removeElement, etc) so stick to the proper DOM methods and you will be
 fine.

 --
 --
 Christian Montoya
 christianmontoya.net


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-- 
Jason Foss
http://www.almostanything.com.au
http://www.waterfallweb.net
http://last.fm/user/rockyshark


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Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI

2007-10-13 Thread Christian Montoya
On 10/13/07, Jason Foss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Sorry if this is a bit of a newbie question, but what's the issue with
 innerHTML?

It's not an official W3C DOM method. When you fill the content of an
element with innerHTML, the browser will render it but as far as I can
remember, the content doesn't really exist properly within the DOM.
The proper DOM methods, such as append, remove, etc. do build up the
DOM properly.

In a way, it's kind of like embed vs. object.

Of course, if you really want to use innerHTML, you could probably go
right ahead. But if you are already using a very DOM-friendly
framework like jQuery, you may as well take advantage of the face that
it makes all the proper DOM methods very easy to use.

-- 
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net


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Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI

2007-10-13 Thread Christian Montoya
On 10/13/07, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On 10/13/07, Jason Foss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Sorry if this is a bit of a newbie question, but what's the issue with
  innerHTML?

 But if you are already using a very DOM-friendly
 framework like jQuery, you may as well take advantage of the face that
 it makes all the proper DOM methods very easy to use.

* of the FACT. I can't write e-mails in the morning...

-- 
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net


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Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI

2007-10-13 Thread Dan Dorman
On 10/12/07, Simon Cockayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Am I going to see green lights* in Firefox for standards compliance,
 error-free CSS and Javascript...oh...and will the HTML and CSS validate?

I don't think _any_ Javascript libraries would affect HTML/CSS
validation in any way whatsoever, because the validators don't even
_use_ JS: they look at the source the way it's originally served up,
before any possible JS modifications.

Or is this incorrect? Do any of the validation tools revise their
validation states based on JS interaction?

:Dan Dorman


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Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI

2007-10-13 Thread Christian Montoya
On 10/13/07, Dan Dorman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On 10/12/07, Simon Cockayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Am I going to see green lights* in Firefox for standards compliance,
  error-free CSS and Javascript...oh...and will the HTML and CSS validate?

 I don't think _any_ Javascript libraries would affect HTML/CSS
 validation in any way whatsoever, because the validators don't even
 _use_ JS: they look at the source the way it's originally served up,
 before any possible JS modifications.

 Or is this incorrect? Do any of the validation tools revise their
 validation states based on JS interaction?

You are correct. But Simon was also talking about standards
compliance, which includes using DOM standards.


-- 
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net


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Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI

2007-10-13 Thread Olly Hodgson
On 10/13/07, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 In a way, it's kind of like embed vs. object.

In a way, but...

 Of course, if you really want to use innerHTML, you could probably go
 right ahead. But if you are already using a very DOM-friendly
 framework like jQuery, you may as well take advantage of the face that
 it makes all the proper DOM methods very easy to use.

(I might well be talking out of my backside here in which case, feel
free to shoot me down in flames...)

IIRC the innerHTML methods are significantly faster than W3C DOM
methods in current mainstream browsers. In most cases it won't make a
lot of difference, but if you're pushing a large amount of data around
the page, it can be very helpful.

I'm not saying you should use innerHTML exclusively -- In most cases I
still turn to W3C DOM methods. Sometimes though, IE will slow right
down, and innerHTML can be a good way of extracting a bit more speed
from it.


-- 
Olly
http://thinkdrastic.net/


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[WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI

2007-10-12 Thread Simon Cockayne
Hi,

Anyone using jQuery (http://jquery.com/) or Yahoo UI (
http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/) ?

Do they, help to, build nice Standards based apps?

Am I going to see green lights* in Firefox for standards compliance,
error-free CSS and Javascript...oh...and will the HTML and CSS validate?

*I LOVE those little green lights.

Cheers,

Simon


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Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI

2007-10-12 Thread andy
Hi Simon,

jQuery won't introduce any errors automatically, so unless you tell it to
do something that will generate invalid HTML or CSS it will be fine. I
assume the same is true of YUI.

- Andrew Ingram

 Hi,

 Anyone using jQuery (http://jquery.com/) or Yahoo UI (
 http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/) ?

 Do they, help to, build nice Standards based apps?

 Am I going to see green lights* in Firefox for standards compliance,
 error-free CSS and Javascript...oh...and will the HTML and CSS validate?

 *I LOVE those little green lights.

 Cheers,

 Simon



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Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI

2007-10-12 Thread Matthew Pennell
On 12/10/2007, Simon Cockayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Anyone using jQuery (http://jquery.com/) or Yahoo UI (
 http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/) ?

 Do they, help to, build nice Standards based apps?

 Am I going to see green lights* in Firefox for standards compliance,
 error-free CSS and Javascript...oh...and will the HTML and CSS validate?


JavaScript libraries do not by themselves put errors in your CSS or HTML,
only you - the user - can do that. :)

If you consider WCAG a web standard, then you need to make sure that your
page is still accessible when scripts are turned off (or words to that
effect). Read our article that Alfonso linked to for an example of how
jQuery can be applied.

-- 




Matthew Pennell //
m: 07904 432123 //
www.thewatchmakerproject.com


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Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI

2007-10-12 Thread Alfonso Catron
Hi Simon,,

I was just reading a very interesting article regarding jQuery:
http://www.digital-web.com/articles/jquery_crash_course/

probably you can get some more information from there.

Alfonso Catron



On 10/12/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi Simon,

 jQuery won't introduce any errors automatically, so unless you tell it to
 do something that will generate invalid HTML or CSS it will be fine. I
 assume the same is true of YUI.

 - Andrew Ingram

  Hi,
 
  Anyone using jQuery (http://jquery.com/) or Yahoo UI (
  http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/) ?
 
  Do they, help to, build nice Standards based apps?
 
  Am I going to see green lights* in Firefox for standards compliance,
  error-free CSS and Javascript...oh...and will the HTML and CSS validate?
 
  *I LOVE those little green lights.
 
  Cheers,
 
  Simon



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Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI

2007-10-12 Thread Matthew Pennell
On 12/10/2007, Maarten stolte [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Not true. YUI is much more then a Javascript library, and it outputting
 alot of HTML and CSS could (possibly!) make it break your valid pages.


My point was that YUI doesn't output any HTML on its own - it only does what
you tell it to do.

-- 




Matthew Pennell //
m: 07904 432123 //
www.thewatchmakerproject.com


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Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI

2007-10-12 Thread Christian Montoya
On 10/12/07, Simon Cockayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi,

 Anyone using jQuery (http://jquery.com/) or Yahoo UI
 (http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/) ?

 Do they, help to, build nice Standards based apps?

 Am I going to see green lights* in Firefox for standards compliance,
 error-free CSS and Javascript...oh...and will the HTML and CSS validate?

If you want to absolutely follow standards, make sure you don't use
any methods that wrap innerHTML. jQuery has one but it also has a
bunch of methods that use the proper DOM methods (appendElement,
removeElement, etc) so stick to the proper DOM methods and you will be
fine.

-- 
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net


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Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI

2007-10-12 Thread Joseph Taylor
I haven't tried Yahoo's library, but jQuery is just great.  I only use 
it lightly (getting DOM elements, applying classes etc), but its been 
very nice to work with so far.  No code issues.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
-
Sites by Joe, LLC
Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hi Simon,

jQuery won't introduce any errors automatically, so unless you tell it to
do something that will generate invalid HTML or CSS it will be fine. I
assume the same is true of YUI.

- Andrew Ingram

  

Hi,

Anyone using jQuery (http://jquery.com/) or Yahoo UI (
http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/) ?

Do they, help to, build nice Standards based apps?

Am I going to see green lights* in Firefox for standards compliance,
error-free CSS and Javascript...oh...and will the HTML and CSS validate?

*I LOVE those little green lights.

Cheers,

Simon





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org:Sites by Joe, LLC
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title:Designer / Developer
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Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI

2007-10-12 Thread Maarten stolte
 On 12/10/2007, Simon Cockayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Anyone using jQuery (http://jquery.com/) or Yahoo UI (
 http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/) ?

 Do they, help to, build nice Standards based apps?

 Am I going to see green lights* in Firefox for standards compliance,
 error-free CSS and Javascript...oh...and will the HTML and CSS validate?


 JavaScript libraries do not by themselves put errors in your CSS or HTML,
 only you - the user - can do that. :)

Not true. YUI is much more then a Javascript library, and it outputting
alot of HTML and CSS could (possibly!) make it break your valid pages.
I am using YUI, its very nice, but i've only been using it for some small
things and I did not yet validate them, and even if I had, it would not be
a guarantee for other parts of the library.
It *is* tested in alot of browsers for compatibility, which is maybe even
more important then standards compliance (sorry...).

regards,

Maarten


 If you consider WCAG a web standard, then you need to make sure that
 your
 page is still accessible when scripts are turned off (or words to that
 effect). Read our article that Alfonso linked to for an example of how
 jQuery can be applied.

 --




 Matthew Pennell //
 m: 07904 432123 //
 www.thewatchmakerproject.com


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Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI

2007-10-12 Thread Tee G. Peng

Can you comment on Ext JS ?

http://extjs.com/

I'd been wanting to know how it measure up  with standards but  
thought this is not a place to ask, but where is the better place to  
get a better answer regarding standards? :)


tee


On Oct 12, 2007, at 10:56 AM, Christian Montoya wrote:


On 10/12/07, Simon Cockayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hi,

Anyone using jQuery (http://jquery.com/) or Yahoo UI
(http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/) ?




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