Re: [WSG] standards selling points
This is a discussion that continuously reappears on this list. I've been down this path myself and these days agree with those who say not to bother selling the standards to people. They really don't care. Sorry. I spent many meetings with clients trying to explain what standards are, and the only thing they are interested in are any tangible benefits. If you cannot focus on benefits, don't waste your time. In my experience: Clients do care about SEO, but don't care about screen readers. Clients do care that google can whip through clean code, butt don't care to know what tag soup is. Clients think that it interesting that javascript image buttons with javascript: in the url screw up search engines etc, but don't care for the technical explanation. Clients don't care that the 25 nested tables don't validate, but do care that it takes 5 times as long to make a minor change on that type of page. Clients think its cool when I press CTRL+SHIFT+S in firefox and remove the presentation layer to show them what the search engine sees, but they don't care to learn the difference between presentation, information and behavior. As a designer/developer you want to try and separate your self from your competition, especially if they do crappy work. A long speech aimed at educating the client is a nice thought but in practicality a waste of the client's time. Point being, we're not selling standards here. We're supposed to be selling quality websites that are well-coded and accessible to a variety of audiences. Following standards is simply the recommended way to do so. Save the education for a brochure to hand them if you insist on drilling the concept into their heads. Keep in mind I'm in America so I'm in an environment where REALLY no one cares. My competition all uses Frontpage, frames, javascript links, whole pages that are just jpgs with image maps, only use CSS to style scrollbars - its ridiculous! My 2 cents, *Joseph R. B. Taylor* Sites by Joe, LLC /Custom Web Design Development/ Phone: (609) 335-3076 www.sitesbyjoe.com http://www.sitesbyjoe.com Tony Crockford wrote: kevin mcmonagle wrote: Hello, This has been discussed before but i was wondering about new input. I've tendered on a big job and i will be up against a lot of competition. What are some web standards selling points that might get through to a completely uniformed, unsavy client. MACCAWS was ahead of its time and seems to have been forgotten, mores the pity, but it was set up specifically to help web designers in your position. There's a whole Kit of information here: http://www.maccaws.org/kit/ Making A Commercial Case for Adopting Web Standards | maccaws.org hth *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***begin:vcard fn:Joseph R. B. Taylor n:Taylor;Joseph org:Sites by Joe, LLC adr:;;408 Route 47 South;Cape May Court House;NJ;08210;USA email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] tel;work:609-335-3076 tel;cell:609-335-3076 url:http://www.sitesbyjoe.com version:2.1 end:vcard
[WSG] standards selling points
Hello, This has been discussed before but i was wondering about new input. I've tendered on a big job and i will be up against a lot of competition. What are some web standards selling points that might get through to a completely uniformed, unsavy client. The job requires a cms, ill be using text pattern which I'm in the process of learning, because of this I dont know if ill be able to reach XHTML 1.0 Strict yet. I will just be building a standards compliant and accessible site-im not going to go to crazy with 14pt type. Also the client is a semi-state body-although there are no requirement here in Ireland for accessibility. -best kvnmcwebn *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] standards selling points
There are some Irish guidelines and what about the status of EU standards compliance? http://accessit.nda.ie/technologyindex_1.html Tim On 09/03/2007, at 1:18 AM, kevin mcmonagle wrote: Hello, This has been discussed before but i was wondering about new input. I've tendered on a big job and i will be up against a lot of competition. What are some web standards selling points that might get through to a completely uniformed, unsavy client. The job requires a cms, ill be using text pattern which I'm in the process of learning, because of this I dont know if ill be able to reach XHTML 1.0 Strict yet. I will just be building a standards compliant and accessible site-im not going to go to crazy with 14pt type. Also the client is a semi-state body-although there are no requirement here in Ireland for accessibility. -best kvnmcwebn *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** The Editor Heretic Press http://www.hereticpress.com Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] standards selling points
Best practices is a good phrase to use in conjunction with standards, especially when the best practices are research-based. Usability.gov provides free Research-Based Web Design Usability Guidelines that are quite comprehensive. On 3/8/07 8:18 AM, kevin mcmonagle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, This has been discussed before but i was wondering about new input. I've tendered on a big job and i will be up against a lot of competition. What are some web standards selling points that might get through to a completely uniformed, unsavy client. The job requires a cms, ill be using text pattern which I'm in the process of learning, because of this I dont know if ill be able to reach XHTML 1.0 Strict yet. I will just be building a standards compliant and accessible site-im not going to go to crazy with 14pt type. Also the client is a semi-state body-although there are no requirement here in Ireland for accessibility. -best kvnmcwebn *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] standards selling points
kevin mcmonagle wrote: Hello, This has been discussed before but i was wondering about new input. I've tendered on a big job and i will be up against a lot of competition. What are some web standards selling points that might get through to a completely uniformed, unsavy client. In a couple of weeks, I am facilitating a workshop entitled getting more from the time and money invested in online services aimed at the unsavvy client dealing with the techy. The slides may help you get a perspective of the other side and I would welcome feedback from the group: You will need to use: username: wsg password: wsg at http://www.ramin.com.au/workshops/value-of-online-services.html The job requires a cms, ill be using text pattern which I'm in the process of learning, because of this I dont know if ill be able to reach XHTML 1.0 Strict yet. I will just be building a standards compliant and accessible site-im not going to go to crazy with 14pt type. Also the client is a semi-state body-although there are no requirement here in Ireland for accessibility. -best kvnmcwebn *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Marghanita da Cruz http://www.ramin.com.au/ Telephone: 0414-869202 Ramin Communications Pty Ltd ABN: 027-089-713-084 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] standards selling points
In my experience, it's a bad move to try and sell a client on the technology you intend to use. The more technologically unsavvy they are, the less interested they will be in what technology you are using. (Remember this is my experience). I've had better success determining what problems the client has, which can be solved by a website. I then base my presentation on exactly how and why a website is the best solution. Sometimes a website is only part of the solution. Sometimes it isn't the best solution at all, and is instead a solution looking for a problem. If standards, and best practice are part of the solution to their problems, then you barely need to think about how to sell them on it. Just describe why it's the best solution to whatever the problem is. In a commercial situation, it may be about maximizing profit by reducing maintenance costs. In a government situation, it may be compliance with laws, and accessibility issues. In summary, focus more on problems and solutions, rather than specific technologies. -Breton. On 09/03/2007, at 1:18 AM, kevin mcmonagle wrote: Hello, This has been discussed before but i was wondering about new input. I've tendered on a big job and i will be up against a lot of competition. What are some web standards selling points that might get through to a completely uniformed, unsavy client. The job requires a cms, ill be using text pattern which I'm in the process of learning, because of this I dont know if ill be able to reach XHTML 1.0 Strict yet. I will just be building a standards compliant and accessible site- im not going to go to crazy with 14pt type. Also the client is a semi-state body-although there are no requirement here in Ireland for accessibility. -best kvnmcwebn *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] standards selling points
kevin mcmonagle wrote: Hello, This has been discussed before but i was wondering about new input. I've tendered on a big job and i will be up against a lot of competition. What are some web standards selling points that might get through to a completely uniformed, unsavy client. MACCAWS was ahead of its time and seems to have been forgotten, mores the pity, but it was set up specifically to help web designers in your position. There's a whole Kit of information here: http://www.maccaws.org/kit/ Making A Commercial Case for Adopting Web Standards | maccaws.org hth *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
