Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[russ weakley]

Hi Peters,

Welcome to the list. That is one of our aims here - to keep it informative
but also as friendly as possible. We have designers and developers with a
very wide range of skills and skill levels. But we are all in the same web
standards boat  :)

The best quote on friendly attitude would have to be Eric Meyer's:


The thing about CSS is that it's a tool.  It's a very powerful tool, one
that has the potential to become even more powerful and therefore useful,
but it's still a tool.  People should of course always use the best tool for
a job, whatever it might be, and the expert ought to help others use the
tool better. But no matter how skilled you are with a tool, you shouldn't
use it to hit other people.


http://www.dmxzone.com/showDetail.asp?TypeId=28&NewsId=5307&LinkFile=page2.h
tm


> 
> I have noticed that this list seem does seem pretty friendly, glad I happen
> to stuble acrossed it.


*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Peters Micheal A Contr GSI/SCBN]

Don't worry, as a newbie here and to a lot of the standards, I should bring
the bar down a few pegs when my response to an answer is simple "Huh?"


BTW guess it's time I said hi, instead of lurking like I have been for the
past week.

I've recently come over here from CSS-F list, which I was only on for like a
week or 2 when they decided a merger with this one would be a good idea.

Actually I have done some CSS and standards compliant work before, so the
concept isn't totally forign to me.  How ever, as I look at some of the
answers and site checks, I still have a way to go, both technicaly, and
"artisticly".

I have noticed that this list seem does seem pretty friendly, glad I happen
to stuble acrossed it.

Micheal Peters

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ian Lloyd
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 11:23 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list



On 9 Mar 2004, at 21:21, Paul Ross wrote:

> The trouble with this list - and the people on it - is that you are
> all too
> helpful and friendly. I am also a member of the Webesign-L.com list 
> and would
> never post there because the list-mom and most of the members seem to 
> be
> arrogant elitist techno-fascists who sneer and chide those of us 
> further down
> the learning curve.

Ahh, so you're friends with Steven Champeon then? Heh ;-)

I know what you mean though. Trouble is, it can easily happen with WSG 
list - all it takes is time and people will learn more, ask more 
complicated questions and attempt to show how clever they are by 
posting complicated 'helpful' answers. That's the trouble with 
discussion lists the world over..

Ian Lloyd
~
WEB: http://www.ian-lloyd.com/  |  AIM: uklloydi Round-the-World trip blog:
http://ianandmanda.typepad.com/

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Ian Lloyd]

On 9 Mar 2004, at 21:21, Paul Ross wrote:

The trouble with this list - and the people on it - is that you are 
all too
helpful and friendly. I am also a member of the Webesign-L.com list 
and would
never post there because the list-mom and most of the members seem to 
be
arrogant elitist techno-fascists who sneer and chide those of us 
further down
the learning curve.
Ahh, so you're friends with Steven Champeon then? Heh ;-)

I know what you mean though. Trouble is, it can easily happen with WSG 
list - all it takes is time and people will learn more, ask more 
complicated questions and attempt to show how clever they are by 
posting complicated 'helpful' answers. That's the trouble with 
discussion lists the world over..

Ian Lloyd
~
WEB: http://www.ian-lloyd.com/  |  AIM: uklloydi
Round-the-World trip blog: http://ianandmanda.typepad.com/
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
* 

RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list / web developers involvement in development of appropriate standards?

[Morgan]

Hi,

I am a firm believer in standards and mostly just keep an eye on the list
(very erratically) to see what is going on and find out about resources that
I might have missed out on otherwise.

I actively support standards but am beginning to get annoyed at some of the
latest standards coming out as they don't seem to meet the real life needs
of the web development community (take XHTML 2.0 for instance).  I don't
want to boycott standards - that'd be dumb - but I would like to see web
developers being able to provide more feedback regarding standards under
development.  The obvious consideration is to become a member of the W3C -
but unfortunately membership is restricted to those individuals and
companies who can afford to pay $57,000 per year in membership fees.  That
would be why there is only 400 member companies.  I find most of the active
supporters of standards tend to be smaller companies and individuals -
especially those who are willing to share information with others.  Does
anyone else see anything wrong with this picture?  I did write to the W3C
via email but have not yet received a reply.  

Anyway, I guess my question is, is this list an appropriate place to discuss
such issues and perhaps discuss ways that developers can have more of a say
about what should be considered for standards?  Just something that has been
beginning to bug me more and more over the last few years... I follow
standards, I take pains and efforts to use them, I tell other people to use
them and share details of tools that will help make following standards
easier... But do I get any say in what goes into those standards... Not
really.  Is it just me who feels this way?

On a totally different topic (one that is definitely suitable to this list -
well, I think so anyway):  If you are not already using it, a useful
tool/reference for people new to CSS is the devedge sidebar tabs
(http://devedge.netscape.com/toolbox/sidebars/) and checky
(http://checky.mozdev.org/) that are available for Mozilla/Netscape.  (I use
IE to work in because that is what a lot of our clients use, but I always
have mozilla open for testing and also for quick access to the devedge
sidebar  - it very neatly bookmarks the W3C standards so you can find what
you are after straight away).

M.

e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 

Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Carl Reynolds]

I filter on the [WSG] in the subject line and would suggest that if you 
want to add other categories, it be done by adding to the [WSG]. For 
example, [WSG][CSS] subject,or [WSG] - CSS - subject.



Justin French wrote:

On Thursday, March 11, 2004, at 07:28  AM, Taco Fleur wrote:

The only downside is that mailing list is that it is hard to organise 
it to specific folders. I have a folder for WSG but 90% of the mail 
ended up in my inbox instead because the "from field" is actually 
using the sender's name.\]


You can also filter on the "[WSG]" in the subject, which is fool-proof.

---
Justin French
http://indent.com.au
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
*




*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 

Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Kristof Neirynck]

Justin French wrote:
You can also filter on the "[WSG]" in the subject, which is fool-proof.

I'd rather not.
That would filter out offlist messages as well.
I filter on the "to" field.
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
Kristof
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 

Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Justin French]

On Thursday, March 11, 2004, at 07:28  AM, Taco Fleur wrote:

The only downside is that mailing list is that it is hard to organise 
it to specific folders. I have a folder for WSG but 90% of the mail 
ended up in my inbox instead because the "from field" is actually 
using the sender's name.\]
You can also filter on the "[WSG]" in the subject, which is fool-proof.

---
Justin French
http://indent.com.au
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
*

RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Jaime Wong]

Doh stupid me. And I just change my email for the list so WSG won't get all
jumbled up with the other lists. lol

Thanks for the tips still ;)
 
With Regards
Jaime Wong
~~
SODesires Design Team
http://www.sodesires.com
~~
 
---Original Message---
 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 03/11/04 04:47:38
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
 
The only downside is that mailing list is that it is hard to organise it to
specific folders. I have a folder for WSG but 90% of the mail ended up in my
inbox instead because the "from field" is actually using the sender's name. 
 
Thats when you base your rule on the TO: field ;-))
 
All the messages here go into the right folder..
 
 
Taco Fleur
Blog http://www.tacofleur.com/index/blog/
Methodology http://www.tacofleur.com/index/methodology/
 
Tell me and I will forget
Show me and I will remember
Teach me and I will learn 
-Original Message-
From: Jaime Wong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, 11 March 2004 3:09 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
 
 
I think I am a lil late to contribute here but I would like to say that I
agree with Justin. Forums are a good tool for organising topics but for some
who are too busy to take the trouble to log into forums and check the posts,
it is a turn off. 
 
I would prefer for the list to remain as it is now. At least I can take my
time to read the mails when I have the time to do it.
 
The only downside is that mailing list is that it is hard to organise it to
specific folders. I have a folder for WSG but 90% of the mail ended up in my
inbox instead because the "from field" is actually using the sender's name. 
 
About having different categories of topics, I would go for it only if I am
sure that those mails would go to the folders I specify..If not, it would be
too confusing for me and I would not know where to start reading from.
 
Lastly I want to say that I love WSG! People are helpful and although it is
not a huge list, it doesn't matter. What matters most is the
culture/attitude behind the list members. 
 
That is the only thing that makes me stay in the list and not to be
shy/afraid to show my dumb side when it comes to issue I am unsure of.
 
In fact, I would say that WSG has the best attitude so far compared to other
lists. To Russ and Peter...you guys did a great job in maintaining the
spirit!
 
 
With Regards
Jaime Wong
~~
SODesires Design Team
http://www.sodesires.com
~~
 
---Original Message---
 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 03/10/04 11:59:26
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
 
On Wednesday, March 10, 2004, at 02:21 PM, Paul Ross wrote:
 
> Having said that - when we get to 1,000 members I guess something will
> have to
> be done or the success of the list could implode in on itself and the
> noise
> traffic become too much to handle. I would suggest that you think of
> switching
> to a forum based website much like the excellent
> http://forums.australianinfront.com.au/Default.aspx
 
As soon as lists move to forums, I stop posting, stop reading, and stop
helping, as do many others. Web browser-based discussion lists are
difficult, slow and tedious at the best of times, which is the complete
opposite of mail and news groups, which were *designed especially* for
threading, replies and message based discussion.
 
Everything related to discussion happens faster and easier with a mail
client than it does with a browser.
 
Browser-based discussion has one positive; that being the fact that new
subscribers can read old posts and search for topics before posting.
This of course can easily be overcome with web-based archives of email
lists (which is common anyway).
 
---
Justin French
http://indent.com.au
 
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
*
.
 
 
 
 

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 

RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Taco Fleur]

Title: Message



The only downside is that mailing list is that it is hard to organise 
it to specific folders. I have a folder for WSG but 90% of the mail 
ended up in my inbox instead because the "from field" is actually using the 
sender's name. 
 
Thats when you base your rule on the TO: 
field ;-))
 
All the messages here go into the right 
folder..
 
 
Taco 
Fleur
Blog 
http://www.tacofleur.com/index/blog/Methodology 
http://www.tacofleur.com/index/methodology/
Tell me and I will forgetShow 
me and I will rememberTeach me and I will learn 

  
  -Original Message-From: Jaime Wong 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 11 March 2004 3:09 
  AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [WSG] 
  Purpose of this mailing list
  

  
I think I am a lil late to contribute here but I would like to 
say that I agree with Justin. Forums are a good tool for organising 
topics but for some who are too busy to take the trouble to log 
into forums and check the posts, it is a turn off. 
 
I would prefer for the list to remain as it is now. At least I 
can take my time to read the mails when I have the time to do it.
 
The only downside is that mailing list is that it is hard to 
organise it to specific folders. I have a folder for WSG 
but 90% of the mail ended up in my inbox instead because the "from 
field" is actually using the sender's name. 
 
About having different categories of topics, I would go for it only 
if I am sure that those mails would go to the folders I specify..If not, 
it would be too confusing for me and I would not know where to start 
reading from.
 
Lastly I want to say that I love WSG! People are helpful and 
although it is not a huge list, it doesn't matter. What matters most is 
the culture/attitude behind the list members. 
 
That is the only thing that makes me stay in the list and not to be 
shy/afraid to show my dumb side when it comes to issue I am unsure 
of.
 
In fact, I would say that WSG has the best attitude so far compared 
to other lists. To Russ and Peter...you guys did a great job in 
maintaining the spirit!
 
 
With 
Regards
Jaime Wong
~~
SODesires Design 
Team
http://www.sodesires.com
~~
 
---Original 
Message---
 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 03/10/04 
11:59:26
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
    Subject: Re: [WSG] 
    Purpose of this mailing list
 
On Wednesday, March 10, 2004, at 02:21  PM, Paul Ross 
wrote:
 
> Having said that - when we get to 1,000 members I guess 
something will
> have to
> be done or the success of the list could implode in on itself 
and the
> noise
> traffic become too much to handle. I would suggest that you 
think of
> switching
> to a forum based website much like the excellent
> http://forums.australianinfront.com.au/Default.aspx
 
As soon as lists move to forums, I stop posting, stop reading, and 
stop
helping, as do many others.  Web browser-based discussion 
lists are
difficult, slow and tedious at the best of times, which is the 
complete
opposite of mail and news groups, which were *designed especially* 
for
threading, replies and message based discussion.
 
Everything related to discussion happens faster and easier with a 
mail
client than it does with a browser.
 
Browser-based discussion has one positive; that being the fact that 
new
subscribers can read old posts and search for topics before 
posting.
This of course can easily be overcome with web-based archives of 
email
lists (which is common anyway).
 
---
Justin French
http://indent.com.au
 
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
*
.

  

  
  

Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Leo J. O'Campo]

Russ wrote in... Re: [WSG] Cascading background colors

The important question is - do you know why it worked the second time
around?  The answer is that the second rule has more "specificity"...


The above is a perfect example of the purpose of this mailing list.  
Russ' reply to Peter's "how to" directly follows up on the reasoning 
behind the CSS web standard.  This is a win win situation for all of 
us, not just Peter.

Leo

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 

Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Jaime Wong]

I think I am a lil late to contribute here but I would like to say that I agree with Justin. Forums are a good tool for organising topics but for some who are too busy to take the trouble to log into forums and check the posts, it is a turn off. 
 
I would prefer for the list to remain as it is now. At least I can take my time to read the mails when I have the time to do it.
 
The only downside is that mailing list is that it is hard to organise it to specific folders. I have a folder for WSG but 90% of the mail ended up in my inbox instead because the "from field" is actually using the sender's name. 
 
About having different categories of topics, I would go for it only if I am sure that those mails would go to the folders I specify..If not, it would be too confusing for me and I would not know where to start reading from.
 
Lastly I want to say that I love WSG! People are helpful and although it is not a huge list, it doesn't matter. What matters most is the culture/attitude behind the list members. 
 
That is the only thing that makes me stay in the list and not to be shy/afraid to show my dumb side when it comes to issue I am unsure of.
 
In fact, I would say that WSG has the best attitude so far compared to other lists. To Russ and Peter...you guys did a great job in maintaining the spirit!
 
 
With Regards
Jaime Wong
~~
SODesires Design Team
http://www.sodesires.com
~~
 
---Original Message---
 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 03/10/04 11:59:26
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
 
On Wednesday, March 10, 2004, at 02:21  PM, Paul Ross wrote:
 
> Having said that - when we get to 1,000 members I guess something will
> have to
> be done or the success of the list could implode in on itself and the
> noise
> traffic become too much to handle. I would suggest that you think of
> switching
> to a forum based website much like the excellent
> http://forums.australianinfront.com.au/Default.aspx
 
As soon as lists move to forums, I stop posting, stop reading, and stop
helping, as do many others.  Web browser-based discussion lists are
difficult, slow and tedious at the best of times, which is the complete
opposite of mail and news groups, which were *designed especially* for
threading, replies and message based discussion.
 
Everything related to discussion happens faster and easier with a mail
client than it does with a browser.
 
Browser-based discussion has one positive; that being the fact that new
subscribers can read old posts and search for topics before posting.
This of course can easily be overcome with web-based archives of email
lists (which is common anyway).
 
---
Justin French
http://indent.com.au
 
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
*
.

RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Verhoeve, ing. T.A.C.]

Hi all,

I am not for multiple lists (I am already subscribed to so many...). When I
joined this list, I was looking for a place where all aspects of
webstandards would be openly discussed. This means: software that uses
webstandards, how-to's for PHP/CSS/(x)HTML/etc, but also theory. This list
has it all. 

The widely discussions can lead to other ideas which originally were not
made. E.g. a how-to CSS question can lead to a theoratical answer which
could lead to learn more/some basic stuff and vice versa. Getting a straight
answer does not lead to more knowledge in my opinion. And this list is so
widely (and yet so topic related) that we can all learn a lot from it.

However, I can imagine that some members get lost in the (sometimes) many
messages. In my opinion there are two options:
1. Get the digest version.
2. Use Taco's solution (which is good I think). Use his solution on a
want-to base (in stead of a need-to base). If a member knows that his
question will be about css, then just put "css - " in front of the subject.
Everybody receiving the mail will see:  "[WSG] css - the subject of the
mail". Than you know if you want to put effort in reading it immediately,
later or not at all. This system works on many other lists as well as
newsgroups, so why not here? To seperate these subjects to different lists
(where there are already a lot of) would mean a loss for this great list.

And something else. It is good to have a resources listing on a webpage. But
I think we must not encourage to just send answers like: "look in the
resource pages". Maybe once a month a standard mail could go out with the
list 'rules' (purpose of the list, naming your subject, where to find more
information before posting), so everybody is reminded.

Tom,
still a lurker.

> -Oorspronkelijk bericht-
> Van: Peter Firminger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Onderwerp: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
> 
> 
> 
> > I might just point out some of the other WSG bits & pieces
> > that many people
> > probably aren't aware of:
> >  - the resources section
> > <http://webstandardsgroup.org/resources/> (which I
> > believe everyone on the list is able to add to)
> >  - the WSG CMS list (buggered if I can remember how you 
> join... Pete?)
> 
> Thanks Lindsay.
> 
> It's only had 8 posts so far (4 from me).
> See http://www.mail-archive.com/cms%40webstandardsgroup.org/
> 
> To join, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with 
> "subscribe cms"
> (no quotes) as the body (not subject).
> 
> The [WSG] is added at the mail server so Taco's would be an 
> addition to that
> which I can't see working (I'd forget every time).
> 
> I'm happy to set up different lists if you like, but 
> maintenance would be a
> bit weird. We get a couple of hundred bounces every day (and if you've
> mysteriously been transformed to digest mode it means that 
> you were bouncing
> for an extended period and I changed your mode so I only had 
> one bounce per
> day from you to deal with).
> 
> So far we have:
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (The primary one)
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (optional)
> 
> We could also do other variants:
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> This would mean that people only interested in general 
> standards discussion
> could just remain on the default list and those that wanted 
> to also get (or
> give) CSS help could joint the CSS list as well.
> 
> I would make the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mandatory (your 
> login is based on
> this one) with the others as options. There should be no increase in
> traffic, just a split and a possibility of significantly less 
> traffic for
> the person that doesn't do CSS coding but wants to keep 
> abreast of the other
> discussions.
> 
> It would mean that I would bulk subscribe everyone currently 
> on wsg@ to each
> of the new lists (but not cms@) and then allow you to unsub 
> each manually if
> you want to as I don't want to have to enter specifics for 
> 330ish people.
> 
> Is this worth pursuing?
> 
> While we're at it...
> 
> Please make sure you free email account doesn't go over quota.
> Please don't ever request read receipts (I get most of them 
> rather than
> you).
> 
> P
> 
> 
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> * 
> 
> 

Disclaimer

Aan dit bericht kunnen geen rechten worden ontleend. Dit bericht is
uitsluitend bestemd voor de geadresseerde. Als u dit bericht per abuis
hebt ontvangen, wo

RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Taco Fleur]

Yup, I'm in favor if it.

If you want to receive all emails in one folder you can still redirect all
posts from all three emails/lists to one folder, it would be just like it is
now, but those people interested in WSG would benefit by not receiving
anything else but just that.

Can I also suggest at every outgoing email either the footer or the header
you include this info, i.e.

For any .. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For any CSS related blah blah send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For any HTML related blah blah send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Reason being people tend to forget or get lazy, and you might be reading a
post in WSG and come up with this CSS question and in in the spur of the
moment you click reply and post your question to the wrong list, instead you
could easily click the proper link and have it to open up a new email.

Just a thought

Taco Fleur
Blog http://www.tacofleur.com/index/blog/
Methodology http://www.tacofleur.com/index/methodology/

Tell me and I will forget
Show me and I will remember
Teach me and I will learn 


> -Original Message-
> From: David McDonald [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Wednesday, 10 March 2004 3:39 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if I'm for splitting the mailing list up into 
> several lists. 
> 
> As others have said, it would then make it "sort of" like a 
> forum - I would be checking several folders in my mailing 
> client, and maybe missing out on some important or interesting post...
> 
> Are others in favour of doing this? Or not?
> 
>  Original Message 
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 16:15:35 +1100
> 
> >
> >> I might just point out some of the other WSG bits & pieces 
> that many 
> >> people probably aren't aware of:
> >>  - the resources section
> >> <http://webstandardsgroup.org/resources/> (which I
> >> believe everyone on the list is able to add to)
> >>  - the WSG CMS list (buggered if I can remember how you join...
> >Pete?)
> >
> >Thanks Lindsay.
> >
> >It's only had 8 posts so far (4 from me).
> >See http://www.mail-archive.com/cms%40webstandardsgroup.org/
> >
> >To join, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
> >"subscribe cms"
> >(no quotes) as the body (not subject).
> >
> >The [WSG] is added at the mail server so Taco's would be an addition
> >to that
> >which I can't see working (I'd forget every time).
> >
> >I'm happy to set up different lists if you like, but maintenance
> >would be a
> >bit weird. We get a couple of hundred bounces every day (and if
> >you've
> >mysteriously been transformed to digest mode it means that you were
> >bouncing
> >for an extended period and I changed your mode so I only had one
> >bounce per
> >day from you to deal with).
> >
> >So far we have:
> >
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] (The primary one)
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] (optional)
> >
> >We could also do other variants:
> >
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >This would mean that people only interested in general standards
> >discussion
> >could just remain on the default list and those that wanted to also
> >get (or
> >give) CSS help could joint the CSS list as well.
> >
> >I would make the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mandatory (your login is
> >based on
> >this one) with the others as options. There should be no increase in
> >traffic, just a split and a possibility of significantly less traffic
> >for
> >the person that doesn't do CSS coding but wants to keep abreast of
> >the other
> >discussions.
> >
> >It would mean that I would bulk subscribe everyone currently on wsg@
> >to each
> >of the new lists (but not cms@) and then allow you to unsub each
> >manually if
> >you want to as I don't want to have to enter specifics for 330ish
> >people.
> >
> >Is this worth pursuing?
> >
> >While we're at it...
> >
> >Please make sure you free email account doesn't go over quota.
> >Please don't ever request read receipts (I get most of them rather
> >than
> >you).
> >
> >P
> >
> >
> >*
> >The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> >* 
> >
> 
> Regards,
> 
> David McDonald
> Web Designer
> http://www.davidmcdonald.org
> 
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> * 
> 

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
*

RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Peter Ottery]

Title: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list





David wrote:
>>  I don't know if I'm for splitting 
>>  the mailing list up into several lists. 
>>  &
>>  Are others in favour of doing this? Or not?


I'll put my hand up for not splitting the list and also for leaving as-is.
I can deal with the volume and think the continual cross-over between standards opinion/theory and practice is pretty valuable for all the reasons mentioned.

the pointers to succinct explanations on Russ' maxdesign site (http://webstandardsgroup.org/resources/) or elsewhere on the web seem to work well and keep the repetitive 'how-to' emails (that are always going to come up no matter what you do) to a minimum thread length.

pete


Peter Ottery
Lead Web Designer
f2 network - www.f2.com.au
02 8596 4450

RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[David McDonald]

I don't know if I'm for splitting the mailing list up into several
lists. 

As others have said, it would then make it "sort of" like a forum - I
would be checking several folders in my mailing client, and maybe
missing out on some important or interesting post...

Are others in favour of doing this? Or not?

 Original Message 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 16:15:35 +1100

>
>> I might just point out some of the other WSG bits & pieces
>> that many people
>> probably aren't aware of:
>>  - the resources section
>> <http://webstandardsgroup.org/resources/> (which I
>> believe everyone on the list is able to add to)
>>  - the WSG CMS list (buggered if I can remember how you join...
>Pete?)
>
>Thanks Lindsay.
>
>It's only had 8 posts so far (4 from me).
>See http://www.mail-archive.com/cms%40webstandardsgroup.org/
>
>To join, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
>"subscribe cms"
>(no quotes) as the body (not subject).
>
>The [WSG] is added at the mail server so Taco's would be an addition
>to that
>which I can't see working (I'd forget every time).
>
>I'm happy to set up different lists if you like, but maintenance
>would be a
>bit weird. We get a couple of hundred bounces every day (and if
>you've
>mysteriously been transformed to digest mode it means that you were
>bouncing
>for an extended period and I changed your mode so I only had one
>bounce per
>day from you to deal with).
>
>So far we have:
>
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] (The primary one)
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] (optional)
>
>We could also do other variants:
>
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>This would mean that people only interested in general standards
>discussion
>could just remain on the default list and those that wanted to also
>get (or
>give) CSS help could joint the CSS list as well.
>
>I would make the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mandatory (your login is
>based on
>this one) with the others as options. There should be no increase in
>traffic, just a split and a possibility of significantly less traffic
>for
>the person that doesn't do CSS coding but wants to keep abreast of
>the other
>discussions.
>
>It would mean that I would bulk subscribe everyone currently on wsg@
>to each
>of the new lists (but not cms@) and then allow you to unsub each
>manually if
>you want to as I don't want to have to enter specifics for 330ish
>people.
>
>Is this worth pursuing?
>
>While we're at it...
>
>Please make sure you free email account doesn't go over quota.
>Please don't ever request read receipts (I get most of them rather
>than
>you).
>
>P
>
>
>*
>The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
>* 
>

Regards,

David McDonald
Web Designer
http://www.davidmcdonald.org

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
*

RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list [Virus checkedAU]

[Viktor . Radnai]

This email is to be read subject to the disclaimer below.


Hi all,

"David McDonald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So how about doing something similar to what Simon Willison has done
> for the CSS-Discuss mailing list? He has created a "companion" site
> that basically has a list of FAQs, tecnhiques, how-to's, step by step
> examples etc.
That would be great. Particularly a section listing common browser (IE)
bugs (with screenshots or links to relevant articles perhaps). That way we
could just post the link that's related to the problem and get rid of the
duplicates.

> We have the Resources page on our site,
> http://webstandardsgroup.org/resources/ so maybe we should get in
> there and use it in a similar way. This would be beneficial to
> everyone, both new members and old, as we could point people with
> specifc problems to the resources pages, and maybe keep the list a
> little less heavy in the process.
I have an evil plan... why not ask the persons we help to put together a
page with the problem and the solution and submit it afterwards. They could
consider doing this as sort of thanking the list for solving their problem
and giving back something in return.
Of course this cannot (and perhaps shouldn't) be policed that strictly but
it hey, karma works for Slashdot ;-) And writing documentation gives less
CSS-savvy users an opportunity to contribute. Other people can then edit
the docs or add to them if it's necessary.

Just a thought...

Cheers,
Vik
--
Viktor Radnai
System Administrator / Web Developer
Business Innovation Online
Ernst & Young Australia
http://www.eyware.com/
http://www.eyonline.com/
Direct: +612 9248 4361
Fax: +612 9248 4073
Mobile: +61408 662 546


   

   "David  

   McDonald"   To:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  

   <[EMAIL PROTECTED] cc:  
                           
   nald.org>   Subject: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this 
mailing list  [Virus checkedAU]  
   

   10/03/2004  

   03:38 PM

   Please respond  

   to wsg  

   

   





Hi there,

I've also recently been a little concerned by the amount of "how to"
posts, and the repetitive back and forth email that some of these
posts generate.

However, I do realise that people find some of these posts valuable.

When thinking about it a bit more, I realised that it's actually the
solutions to these problems that people find valuable.

So how about doing something similar to what Simon Willison has done
for the CSS-Discuss mailing list? He has created a "companion" site
that basically has a list of FAQs, tecnhiques, how-to's, step by step
examples etc.

We have the Resources page on our site,
http://webstandardsgroup.org/resources/ so maybe we should get in
there and use it in a similar way. This would be beneficial to
everyone, both new members and old, as we could point people with
specifc problems to the resources pages, and maybe keep the list a
little less heavy in the process.

This would take some effort on our behalf - I am happy to dedicate
some time into getting the Resources pages up to speed, and I know
others would as well.

What does everyone think?

Regards.

David McDonald


 Original Message 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:53:38 +1100

>
>Hi Taco
>
>> [CSS]
>> [WSG] Web Standards
>> [OT] Off topic
>> {TOT] Totally Of Topic ;-)
>
>If you're in the mood to write a [OT] or [TOT] message - please
>

RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Lindsay Evans]

Peter Firminger wrote:
> We could also do other variants:
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]

> Is this worth pursuing?

Sounds good to me, although I'd be more in favour of something like:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

> While we're at it...
>
> Please make sure you free email account doesn't go over quota.
> Please don't ever request read receipts (I get most of them rather
> than you).

Also, please temporarily unsubscribe (or is there a 'nomail' option?) from
the list if you're going to have one of those annoying 'vacation' messages.

--
 Lindsay Evans.
 Developer,
 Red Square Productions.

 [p] 8596.4000
 [f] 8596.4001
 [w] www.redsquare.com.au

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 

RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Martin Baylis]

My thoughts exactly

The volume of email is a minor annoynace, however most email clients
(especially Outlook) are not particularly good at logicall managming
conversation threads.

A forum would be much more efficient for reading.

Only concern is that timely replies may drop off.

Regrads

Martin

-Original Message-
From: Paul Ross [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, 10 March 2004 4:21 p.m.
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list


The trouble with this list - and the people on it - is that you are all too
helpful and friendly. I am also a member of the Webesign-L.com list and
would never post there because the list-mom and most of the members seem to
be arrogant elitist techno-fascists who sneer and chide those of us further
down the learning curve. 

Learning to build to web standards does require a steep learning curve and
this list is an excellent resource and helping hand when you need it.

Having said that - when we get to 1,000 members I guess something will have
to be done or the success of the list could implode in on itself and the
noise traffic become too much to handle. I would suggest that you think of
switching to a forum based website much like the excellent
http://forums.australianinfront.com.au/Default.aspx

Regards
PAUL ROSS
SkyRocket Design Co
http://www.skyrocket.com.au

-
This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 



*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 

Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Sennan Lagaluga]

> Please don't ever request read receipts (I get most of them rather 
than> you).
 
i have just disabled my read receipts. 

 
sorry about that  *blushes in 
embarassment*
 
 
Sennan
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Peter Firminger 
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 3:15 
  PM
  Subject: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this 
  mailing list

RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Peter Firminger]

> I might just point out some of the other WSG bits & pieces
> that many people
> probably aren't aware of:
>  - the resources section
>  (which I
> believe everyone on the list is able to add to)
>  - the WSG CMS list (buggered if I can remember how you join... Pete?)

Thanks Lindsay.

It's only had 8 posts so far (4 from me).
See http://www.mail-archive.com/cms%40webstandardsgroup.org/

To join, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "subscribe cms"
(no quotes) as the body (not subject).

The [WSG] is added at the mail server so Taco's would be an addition to that
which I can't see working (I'd forget every time).

I'm happy to set up different lists if you like, but maintenance would be a
bit weird. We get a couple of hundred bounces every day (and if you've
mysteriously been transformed to digest mode it means that you were bouncing
for an extended period and I changed your mode so I only had one bounce per
day from you to deal with).

So far we have:

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (The primary one)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (optional)

We could also do other variants:

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

This would mean that people only interested in general standards discussion
could just remain on the default list and those that wanted to also get (or
give) CSS help could joint the CSS list as well.

I would make the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mandatory (your login is based on
this one) with the others as options. There should be no increase in
traffic, just a split and a possibility of significantly less traffic for
the person that doesn't do CSS coding but wants to keep abreast of the other
discussions.

It would mean that I would bulk subscribe everyone currently on wsg@ to each
of the new lists (but not cms@) and then allow you to unsub each manually if
you want to as I don't want to have to enter specifics for 330ish people.

Is this worth pursuing?

While we're at it...

Please make sure you free email account doesn't go over quota.
Please don't ever request read receipts (I get most of them rather than
you).

P


*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 

Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Simon Dodson]

Alas finally some sanity for my inbox 


Quoting Sennan Lagaluga <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> i like that idea.
> 
> 
> Sennan Lagaluga
> Mock Orange Web Site Development
> U: www.mockorange.com.au
> P: 07 4953 4035
> F: 07 4953 4030
> 
> 1st Floor, 92 Victoria Street
> Mackay   Q   Australia 4740
> 
>   - Original Message - 
>   From: Taco Fleur 
>   To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>   Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 1:51 PM
>   Subject: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
> 
> 
> 
>   PS. for those of you who are tired of to many emails in their email client,
> why not propose a new standard for the Subject of the emails going to the
> list?
> 
>   [CSS] 
>   [WSG] Web Standards
>   [OT] Off topic
>   {TOT] Totally Of Topic ;-)
> 
>   That way you can auto delete 
> 
>   [CSS] 
>   [OT]
>   {TOT]
> 
>   And read anything with WSG
> 
>   Taco Fleur
>   07 3535 5072
> 




-
This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 

Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Chris Blown]

Leo, that is indeed a good point.

As much as I enjoy [EMAIL PROTECTED], I find that the WSG list provides
good information on real world implementation, which is not really
discussed on these other lists.

I agree that volume here should be kept to a minimum, but I wouldn't
call its current activity high volume by a long shot, if you want volume
join something like [EMAIL PROTECTED] :|

Pushing the idea of reading and searching the WSG mail archive before
posting is a good way to reduce lots of repeat questions.

Overall I think the list is great.

Regards
Chris Blown
http://hinterlands.com.au

> As such we need to discuss the evolving nature of web standards.  But 
> in the real world web standards are not an isolated topic. The debate 
> cannot be conducted at the academic level without the experiences of 
> what works and what doesn't.  I believe and sense that the dedicated 
> people here realize that for web standards to work in the field they 
> must be experienced and explored in the field.
> 


*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 

RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[David McDonald]

Hi there,

I've also recently been a little concerned by the amount of "how to"
posts, and the repetitive back and forth email that some of these
posts generate.

However, I do realise that people find some of these posts valuable.

When thinking about it a bit more, I realised that it's actually the
solutions to these problems that people find valuable. 

So how about doing something similar to what Simon Willison has done
for the CSS-Discuss mailing list? He has created a "companion" site 
that basically has a list of FAQs, tecnhiques, how-to's, step by step
examples etc.

We have the Resources page on our site,
http://webstandardsgroup.org/resources/ so maybe we should get in
there and use it in a similar way. This would be beneficial to 
everyone, both new members and old, as we could point people with
specifc problems to the resources pages, and maybe keep the list a
little less heavy in the process.

This would take some effort on our behalf - I am happy to dedicate
some time into getting the Resources pages up to speed, and I know
others would as well.

What does everyone think?

Regards.

David McDonald


 Original Message 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:53:38 +1100

>
>Hi Taco
>
>> [CSS]
>> [WSG] Web Standards
>> [OT] Off topic
>> {TOT] Totally Of Topic ;-)
>
>If you're in the mood to write a [OT] or [TOT] message - please
>don't. Mail
>volume is an issue and the list mums (Russ & Peter) have made call -
>keep it
>on topic or post else where (like CFAUSSIE where this stuff is ok).
>
>I'm not meaning to be harsh but we need to be considerate of those
>that are
>concerned about mail volume.
>
>
>Cheers
>
>Mark
>
>
>--
>Mark Stanton 
>Technical Director 
>Gruden Pty Ltd 
>Tel: 9956 6388
>Mob: 0410 458 201 
>Fax: 9956 8433 
>http://www.gruden.com  
>
>*
>The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
>* 
>

Regards,

David McDonald
Web Designer
http://www.davidmcdonald.org

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
*

RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Antony Sideropoulos]

At risk of adding to the number of messages in response to a message concerned about the number of messages on this list, may I suggest a 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] for OT and TOT and SOT messages?
 
Seems to work quite well for cf-talk (cf-community and cf_ot) at houseoffusion.com, and that way those who don't want xOT messages won't have to subscribe?
 
Antony
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/2004 2:53:38 pm >>>Hi Taco> [CSS]> [WSG] Web Standards> [OT] Off topic> {TOT] Totally Of Topic ;-)If you're in the mood to write a [OT] or [TOT] message - please don't. Mailvolume is an issue and the list mums (Russ & Peter) have made call - keep iton topic or post else where (like CFAUSSIE where this stuff is ok).I'm not meaning to be harsh but we need to be considerate of those that areconcerned about mail volume.CheersMark--Mark Stanton Technical Director Gruden Pty Ltd Tel: 9956 6388Mob: 0410 458 201 Fax: 9956 8433 http://www.gruden.com *The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * 

--
Maddocks
Melbourne - Tel: (61 3) 9288 0555  Fax: (61 3) 9288 0666   
Sydney - Tel: (61 2) 8223 4100  Fax: (61 2) 9221 0872
Web: http://www.maddocks.com.au 
--
The information in this electronic mail is privileged
and confidential, intended only for use of the individual
or entity named.  If you are not the intended recipient,
any dissemination, copying or use of the information is
strictly prohibited.  If you have received this transmission
in error please delete it immediately from your system
and inform us by email on [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--

RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Taco Fleur]

Hi Mark,

I did not *mean* that people should start writing OT's, my point was that some people 
do not like to read about CSS hack and solution and whatever, so .. a never 
mind, forget it...



-Original Message-
From: Mark Stanton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, 10 March 2004 1:54 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list



Hi Taco

> [CSS]
> [WSG] Web Standards
> [OT] Off topic
> {TOT] Totally Of Topic ;-)

If you're in the mood to write a [OT] or [TOT] message - please don't. Mail
volume is an issue and the list mums (Russ & Peter) have made call - keep it
on topic or post else where (like CFAUSSIE where this stuff is ok).

I'm not meaning to be harsh but we need to be considerate of those that are
concerned about mail volume.


Cheers

Mark


--
Mark Stanton 
Technical Director 
Gruden Pty Ltd 
Tel: 9956 6388
Mob: 0410 458 201 
Fax: 9956 8433 
http://www.gruden.com  

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
*

RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Lindsay Evans]

Taco Fleur wrote:
> PS. for those of you who are tired of to many emails in their
> email client, why not propose a new standard for the Subject of
> the emails going to the list?
>
> [CSS]
> [WSG] Web Standards
> [OT] Off topic
> {TOT] Totally Of Topic ;-)

I might just point out some of the other WSG bits & pieces that many people
probably aren't aware of:
 - the resources section  (which I
believe everyone on the list is able to add to)
 - the WSG CMS list (buggered if I can remember how you join... Pete?)
 - the IRC channel  (OT stuff is
quite okay here, infact most of the time it's just me raving on about buying
bananas from Ebay or something :p)

--
 Lindsay Evans.
 Developer,
 Red Square Productions.

 [p] 8596.4000
 [f] 8596.4001
 [w] www.redsquare.com.au

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 

Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Sennan Lagaluga]

i like that idea.
 
 
Sennan LagalugaMock Orange Web Site 
DevelopmentU: www.mockorange.com.auP: 07 4953 
4035F: 07 4953 40301st 
Floor, 92 Victoria StreetMackay   Q   Australia 
4740

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Taco 
  Fleur 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 1:51 
  PM
  Subject: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this 
  mailing list
  PS. for those of you who are tired of to many emails in 
  their email client, why not propose a new standard for the Subject of the 
  emails going to the list?[CSS] [WSG] Web Standards[OT] Off 
  topic{TOT] Totally Of Topic ;-)That way you can auto delete 
  [CSS] [OT]{TOT]And read anything with WSGTaco 
  Fleur07 3535 5072

RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Mark Stanton]

Hi Taco

> [CSS]
> [WSG] Web Standards
> [OT] Off topic
> {TOT] Totally Of Topic ;-)

If you're in the mood to write a [OT] or [TOT] message - please don't. Mail
volume is an issue and the list mums (Russ & Peter) have made call - keep it
on topic or post else where (like CFAUSSIE where this stuff is ok).

I'm not meaning to be harsh but we need to be considerate of those that are
concerned about mail volume.


Cheers

Mark


--
Mark Stanton 
Technical Director 
Gruden Pty Ltd 
Tel: 9956 6388
Mob: 0410 458 201 
Fax: 9956 8433 
http://www.gruden.com  

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 

RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Taco Fleur]

PS. for those of you who are tired of to many emails in their email client, why not 
propose a new standard for the Subject of the emails going to the list?

[CSS] 
[WSG] Web Standards
[OT] Off topic
{TOT] Totally Of Topic ;-)

That way you can auto delete 

[CSS] 
[OT]
{TOT]

And read anything with WSG

Taco Fleur
07 3535 5072

Tell me and I will forget
Show me and I will remember
Teach me and I will learn


-Original Message-
From: Mike Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, 10 March 2004 11:40 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list



ok, so at the risk of getting flamed :) 

I'm writing about what the purpose of this list is. I've found it to
be a very good resource and fully support the idea of promoting the
understanding and use of web standards.

What I've been struggling with over the past 2/3 months though is the
increasing volume of posts concerned with what I'd call "how-to"
matters. Questions about getting something to work with CSS, or about
needing help with a web-related problem. These, and answers to them,
have far and away made up the bulk of posts to the list.

If the purpose of this list is to answer these questions, then that's
fine. But personally I'd probably unsubscribe as the volume is just
too much. There are excellent lists already out there:
css-discuss 
webdesign-L 

that are set up for this type of help.

I don't think we should try and duplicate what they do. Rather, I
think this list is much more valuable discussing web standards,
promoting them, commenting on them, sharing resources, educating each
other etc etc

What do others think about this?

I have emailed Russ about this, and he was of the view that the list
members of the list community should set the rules for posting, topics
of discussion etc, and also that he was happy for me to post to the
list about this and get feedback etc.

I guess that my main concern is drowning under weight of emails! I'm
on the two lists mentioned above and really don't want to be on
another duplicating what they do. But I do want to be on a list
discussing web standards.


Regards

Mike Brown


SIGNIFY :: the logic behind

ph: +64 4 803-3211  |  fax: +64 4 803-3241
mob: +64 0274 885-992 | http://www.signify.co.nz
P.O. Box 24-068, Manners St, Wellington
Level 8, CMC Building, 89 Courtenay Pl, Wellington



*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
*

RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Taco Fleur]

I am a convert to using CSS for layout and tables for tabular data, only since I 
joined this list, and only due to the help Russ and all others have provided. If I 
never had gotten that help from this list I would have still been using tables for 
layout, and we would all be further away from a Standardized web!

Since I joined I also seen many people complain about the traffic on this mailing 
list, which compared to other mailing lists is nothing! If you would have any content 
related to CSS I wonder how many people would leave this list? If you want Standards 
you need to reach people, a lot of people, and not only those people who already know 
about standards and what not.

I'd say, if you go back to original idea behind this list you'd be closing yourself of 
to the world who needs to hear you guys!



Taco Fleur
07 3535 5072

Tell me and I will forget
Show me and I will remember
Teach me and I will learn


-Original Message-
From: Mike Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, 10 March 2004 11:40 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list



ok, so at the risk of getting flamed :) 

I'm writing about what the purpose of this list is. I've found it to
be a very good resource and fully support the idea of promoting the
understanding and use of web standards.

What I've been struggling with over the past 2/3 months though is the
increasing volume of posts concerned with what I'd call "how-to"
matters. Questions about getting something to work with CSS, or about
needing help with a web-related problem. These, and answers to them,
have far and away made up the bulk of posts to the list.

If the purpose of this list is to answer these questions, then that's
fine. But personally I'd probably unsubscribe as the volume is just
too much. There are excellent lists already out there:
css-discuss 
webdesign-L 

that are set up for this type of help.

I don't think we should try and duplicate what they do. Rather, I
think this list is much more valuable discussing web standards,
promoting them, commenting on them, sharing resources, educating each
other etc etc

What do others think about this?

I have emailed Russ about this, and he was of the view that the list
members of the list community should set the rules for posting, topics
of discussion etc, and also that he was happy for me to post to the
list about this and get feedback etc.

I guess that my main concern is drowning under weight of emails! I'm
on the two lists mentioned above and really don't want to be on
another duplicating what they do. But I do want to be on a list
discussing web standards.


Regards

Mike Brown


SIGNIFY :: the logic behind

ph: +64 4 803-3211  |  fax: +64 4 803-3241
mob: +64 0274 885-992 | http://www.signify.co.nz
P.O. Box 24-068, Manners St, Wellington
Level 8, CMC Building, 89 Courtenay Pl, Wellington



*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
*

Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Leo J. O'Campo]

Mike et. al.,

I'm very new to the WSG list. I have been feeling my way around to see 
what is appropriate for this list.  I'm not in AU. I'm in New York so I 
won't be attending meetings anytime soon. I joined this list because I 
truly believe that web design should follow strict but accessible 
standards based design.

As such we need to discuss the evolving nature of web standards.  But 
in the real world web standards are not an isolated topic. The debate 
cannot be conducted at the academic level without the experiences of 
what works and what doesn't.  I believe and sense that the dedicated 
people here realize that for web standards to work in the field they 
must be experienced and explored in the field.

Therefore, IMHO, I would like to see this list retain the how to and 
how not to implement a particular area of the standard.  However, human 
interface design is designed and developed by humans so I expect some 
humorous off topic post to break the ice. I think we all know why we're 
here.

Well that's what I think

Leo

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 

Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Justin French]

On Wednesday, March 10, 2004, at 02:21  PM, Paul Ross wrote:

Having said that - when we get to 1,000 members I guess something will 
have to
be done or the success of the list could implode in on itself and the 
noise
traffic become too much to handle. I would suggest that you think of 
switching
to a forum based website much like the excellent
http://forums.australianinfront.com.au/Default.aspx
As soon as lists move to forums, I stop posting, stop reading, and stop 
helping, as do many others.  Web browser-based discussion lists are 
difficult, slow and tedious at the best of times, which is the complete 
opposite of mail and news groups, which were *designed especially* for 
threading, replies and message based discussion.

Everything related to discussion happens faster and easier with a mail 
client than it does with a browser.

Browser-based discussion has one positive; that being the fact that new 
subscribers can read old posts and search for topics before posting.  
This of course can easily be overcome with web-based archives of email 
lists (which is common anyway).

---
Justin French
http://indent.com.au
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 

Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Jackie Reid]

In my struggles to come to terms with css, this 
list has been an absolute godsend as far as i am concerned, stranded as I am in 
sunny nq. Somehow it seems very much like a bunch of mates helping one 
another out. (That sounds a bit mushy but there you have it)
 
I haven't posted that often, however have read all 
emails avidly over a coffee and a cig during my down time. Russ's advice is 
always brilliant, along with many, many others, and lately the amount of 
moral support and help offered to members has given me a nice warm fuzzy 
feeling!!! Let's face it people unassociated with the industry just don't 
understand what we are going through here when things turn 
pearshaped.
 
I dont know what the answer is but I do know I 
would like this list to continue on more or less as it is but do understand the 
need for standards stuff too... but at present this is my best resource for 
guiding me through the maze that is css. I think I have come ahead in leaps and 
bounds as a direct result of this list. So thanks to all.
 
Jackie ReidMock Orange Web Site Development1st Floor92 Victoria 
StreetMACKAY Q 4740Ph: 07 4953 4035
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Universal 
  Head 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 12:36 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [WSG] Purpose of this 
  mailing list
  It's tricky, because now that I'm getting up to speed with CSS 
  I tend to skim and skip the 'how-tos'. But then, I never would have got up to 
  speed in the first place without the 'how-to' help from this 
  list.POn 10/03/2004, at 12:55 PM, Mark Stanton 
  wrote:
  I've got a graphic artist in here who has similar complaints to 
yours - hefinds Russ's emails with lists of links very interesting 
because they givehim a good idea of issues that he has to design around 
and techniques thatwe can be employing. But he doesn't code CSS all day 
so he doesn't reallyget much from the "how do I get this float working" 
posts.Universal 
  Head Design 
  That Works.7/43 Bridge Rd StanmoreNSW 2048 AustraliaT (+612) 
  9517 1466F (+612) 9565 4747E [EMAIL PROTECTED]W 
  www.universalhead.com

Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Hugh Todd]

When I joined this list I already knew that I wanted to pursue the web 
standards approach. But I was at the hair-pulling stage and needing 
help. I've seen many people join since who are as I was then (not so 
long ago either, and am sure to be again).

Two principles have been on my mind.

1) I did not want to bother the list until I had made an exhaustive 
search of the websites detailing difficulties with various browsers and 
how to solve them. In other words, I did not think it fair that I 
should ask others to solve issues without my having worked very hard to 
solve them myself.

2) I did not want simply to be a 'taker', so if I had learnt anything, 
and had the time to do it, I wanted to be able to give back to others 
who may be encountering the same problems.

I have to confess I have found the first principle easier to observe 
than the second, and I am full of admiration for members of the list 
who continue to help fellow list members with their code. I think this 
is what keeps the list 'grounded', and makes us a feel welcome to be 
here.

I once heard a psychologist describe relationships in terms of fleas 
and dogs. Some people are fleas who suck on their 'dog' partners. In 
some relationships, both partners are fleas.

To all the 'dogs' on this list, a big 'thank you'!

-Hugh Todd

And I think this needs to be a place where we both learn to understand 
the big picture and wrestle with the nitty gritty.

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 

RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Paul Ross]

The trouble with this list - and the people on it - is that you are all too
helpful and friendly. I am also a member of the Webesign-L.com list and would
never post there because the list-mom and most of the members seem to be
arrogant elitist techno-fascists who sneer and chide those of us further down
the learning curve. 

Learning to build to web standards does require a steep learning curve and this
list is an excellent resource and helping hand when you need it.

Having said that - when we get to 1,000 members I guess something will have to
be done or the success of the list could implode in on itself and the noise
traffic become too much to handle. I would suggest that you think of switching
to a forum based website much like the excellent
http://forums.australianinfront.com.au/Default.aspx

Regards
PAUL ROSS
SkyRocket Design Co
http://www.skyrocket.com.au

-
This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 

RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[James Gollan]

I find that whilst there would appear to be a clear separation between a
discussion of web standards and how-to's, quite often a look at
someone's source code sparks off an interesting and valuable debate
about the web standards issues involved. The overlap would seem to add
richness to the list, rather than just volume.

There also seems to be a tendency to email off-list when offering
specific or extensive one-on-one help (which could perhaps be
encouraged)?

One of the downsides of a good list is that it becomes a popular list!!!

Having said this I am not necessarily against the idea of two lists -
I'd join both!

James
-Original Message-
From: Mark Stanton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, 10 March 2004 12:55 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list


Hi Mike

The purpose of this list is two fold: Q&A stuff and general web
standards
discussion/news updates. We have tried to create a culture on this list
that
is very topic based rather than creating a really chatty community with
lots
of OT posts about what people got up to on the weekend.

So basically we want this list to contain anything and everything as
long as
its on topic.

I realise that there are other CSS Q&A lists out there, but this list is
different in the sense that it is really the extension of a group and
the
group's meetings. I would say that at the moment the membership of the
list
these days far exceeds the attendance of our meetings, but the list has
evolved out of the group & group meetings. 

People who can't make it to meetings are always welcomed & encouraged to
organise meetings in their areas.

We are very aware of list volume issues and understand that this is a
touchy
subject for some, but at the same time getting too restrictive will
alienate
other list members. 

I've got a graphic artist in here who has similar complaints to yours -
he
finds Russ's emails with lists of links very interesting because they
give
him a good idea of issues that he has to design around and techniques
that
we can be employing. But he doesn't code CSS all day so he doesn't
really
get much from the "how do I get this float working" posts.

What would you think about a blog & RSS feed for news stuff (or would
this
just be "another CSS blog")? Or two lists, one for news and one for
implementation issues? 

Anyway its an open issue at the moment - we're still trying to find the
right mix.


Cheers

Mark


--
Mark Stanton 
Technical Director 
Gruden Pty Ltd 
Tel: 9956 6388
Mob: 0410 458 201 
Fax: 9956 8433 
http://www.gruden.com  

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 

Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Universal Head]

It's tricky, because now that I'm getting up to speed with CSS I tend to skim and skip the 'how-tos'. But then, I never would have got up to speed in the first place without the 'how-to' help from this list.

P


On 10/03/2004, at 12:55 PM, Mark Stanton wrote:

I've got a graphic artist in here who has similar complaints to yours - he
finds Russ's emails with lists of links very interesting because they give
him a good idea of issues that he has to design around and techniques that
we can be employing. But he doesn't code CSS all day so he doesn't really
get much from the "how do I get this float working" posts.


Universal Head 
Design That Works.

7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore
NSW 2048 Australia
T	(+612) 9517 1466
F	(+612) 9565 4747
E	[EMAIL PROTECTED]
W	www.universalhead.com

Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Nick Lo]

Hi Mike,

I understand what you're getting at however I think you need to invert 
the way you're looking at it and see the increasing volume of quality 
posts as well.

Personally, I think this is a great list and yes there are times when I 
think this or that post could have held off posting. However, I've 
equally enjoyed seeing the struggles others are going through and the 
help they are given. In the end IMPLEMENTATION is what this is all 
about, I've no interest in joining a list for the academic discussion 
of standards such as I'd expect say a W3C list to be. I'm on this list 
for the "gimme something I can use" basis and on that score there is 
almost too much. I think the phrase "can't make an omelette without 
cracking eggs" applies here, realistically there has to be some less on 
topic posts as part of any community.

If as you say your real concern is email volume then I think you need 
to ask if that's the right motivation. I don't see any issue with 
simply filtering WSG mail into a mailbox and scanning it picking out 
anything interesting. Besides I don't see this list as high volume, for 
example, I found the flashcoders list overwhelming even in digest form!

I think it's good you pointed out those alternative lists and I do 
agree that if all someone is doing is posting on the list once a month 
to ask how to position this or that then that's not really discussing 
web standards. On the other hand if we can watch them solve this then 
that issue and the discussions/decisions surrounding that, then we see 
the final result then that is relevant. I just think realistically you 
cannot expect that from all posts.

If it were a list on house building standards how off topic would a 
discussion about bricklaying be? In the end there are guidelines in 
place and it's a simple matter of re-routing when necessary. So 
possibly what you're really asking for is a firmer enforcement of the 
list guidelines.

Anyway, no flames here, just my thoughts,

Nick


ok, so at the risk of getting flamed :) 



I'm writing about what the purpose of this list is. I've found it to
be a very good resource and fully support the idea of promoting the
understanding and use of web standards.
What I've been struggling with over the past 2/3 months though is the
increasing volume of posts concerned with what I'd call "how-to"
matters. Questions about getting something to work with CSS, or about
needing help with a web-related problem. These, and answers to them,
have far and away made up the bulk of posts to the list.
If the purpose of this list is to answer these questions, then that's
fine. But personally I'd probably unsubscribe as the volume is just
too much. There are excellent lists already out there:
css-discuss 
webdesign-L 
that are set up for this type of help.

I don't think we should try and duplicate what they do. Rather, I
think this list is much more valuable discussing web standards,
promoting them, commenting on them, sharing resources, educating each
other etc etc
What do others think about this?

I have emailed Russ about this, and he was of the view that the list
members of the list community should set the rules for posting, topics
of discussion etc, and also that he was happy for me to post to the
list about this and get feedback etc.
I guess that my main concern is drowning under weight of emails! I'm
on the two lists mentioned above and really don't want to be on
another duplicating what they do. But I do want to be on a list
discussing web standards.
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 

RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Mark Stanton]

Hi Mike

The purpose of this list is two fold: Q&A stuff and general web standards
discussion/news updates. We have tried to create a culture on this list that
is very topic based rather than creating a really chatty community with lots
of OT posts about what people got up to on the weekend.

So basically we want this list to contain anything and everything as long as
its on topic.

I realise that there are other CSS Q&A lists out there, but this list is
different in the sense that it is really the extension of a group and the
group's meetings. I would say that at the moment the membership of the list
these days far exceeds the attendance of our meetings, but the list has
evolved out of the group & group meetings. 

People who can't make it to meetings are always welcomed & encouraged to
organise meetings in their areas.

We are very aware of list volume issues and understand that this is a touchy
subject for some, but at the same time getting too restrictive will alienate
other list members. 

I've got a graphic artist in here who has similar complaints to yours - he
finds Russ's emails with lists of links very interesting because they give
him a good idea of issues that he has to design around and techniques that
we can be employing. But he doesn't code CSS all day so he doesn't really
get much from the "how do I get this float working" posts.

What would you think about a blog & RSS feed for news stuff (or would this
just be "another CSS blog")? Or two lists, one for news and one for
implementation issues? 

Anyway its an open issue at the moment - we're still trying to find the
right mix.


Cheers

Mark


--
Mark Stanton 
Technical Director 
Gruden Pty Ltd 
Tel: 9956 6388
Mob: 0410 458 201 
Fax: 9956 8433 
http://www.gruden.com  

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 

Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Neerav]

I would lean towards mikes assertion that:

> "Rather, I think this list is much more valuable discussing web
> standards, promoting them, commenting on them, sharing resources,
> educating each other etc etc"
discussing "generic" problems like how to deal with CSS implementation 
in browser X on OS Y would be OK as well, but site/page specific stuff 
should be forwarded to lists like:

> css-discuss 
> webdesign-L 
--
Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
*