Jason, you are a God.
Thank you so much for coming up with this solution. Naming the UL has
fixed the issue completely.
I am in your debt.
Natalie ::))
On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 15:54:38 +1000, Jason Foss
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Natalie, give this a try - it works for me. My containing div is
er, maybe it's my 'listless' disposition but why would you put a
breadcrumb in a list? The usual gt; seperators seem ideal, and if you
disable styles it is still a breadcrumb; what is the obsession with
putting everything in a list?
OK, I admit it... I am obsessed with lists and I hereby
Hello folks,
I've used the infamous Suckerfish dropdown menu on a couple of sites
and have come across one glaring issue. The suckerfish CSS owns the ul
and li tags so you can't style them anywhere else on the page. Anyone
else had the same problem and what is the best solution? I haven't
tried
ahhh... I believe ladies and gents, that's what's known in the business as
an Intervention. russ, just move towards the light...
-Original Message-
From: russ - maxdesign [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 4:15 PM
To: Web Standards Group
Subject: Re: [WSG]
Out of curiosity: what's your stand to the 216 web colours? Do you stick
with them or do you go the full 16 bits?
I personally have stopped limiting myself a long time ago (unless
absolutely necessary), but keep coming across articles warning me from
doing so.
What's your thoughts?
Andreas
On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 16:14:51 +1000, russ - maxdesign wrote:
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/jobs/css/list-obsessed/
Hey, Russ zeroed the margins and padding on the global element!
Lea
~ must.. adopt.. serious.. demeanour...
--
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet
Paul
Have a look at http://www.noltec.com.au/style.css, because all the son
of suckerfish css is explicitly inside the #navmenu DIV the code has no
effect on other lists within the same page
Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
Web Development IT consultancy
http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ -
All the stats I can find (such as
http://www.upsdell.com/BrowserNews/stat_trends.htm ) say that almost no one
browses in 8 bit any more, so I generally use what ever colours I want. If I
was making a site for mobile phones or something I'd probably try and stick to
the web safe palette though (at
On 21/10/2004, at 4:19 PM, Paul Ross wrote:
Hello folks,
I've used the infamous Suckerfish dropdown menu on a couple of sites
and have come across one glaring issue. The suckerfish CSS owns the ul
and li tags so you can't style them anywhere else on the page. Anyone
else had the same problem and
http://www.mail-archive.com/cgi-bin/htsearch?method=andformat=shortconfig=wsg_webstandardsgroup_orgrestrict=exclude=words=Web+safe+colours+-+still+relevent
will answer our question
Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
Web Development IT consultancy
http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings
I've noticed in the code on Russ 'listopathic' page, that h2 and
other tags are inside li tags eg:
li id=header
h1What is the obsession with lists?/h1
/li
I've seen this other places as well, but have always assumed that
block level elements inside li tags was
On 21/10/2004, at 4:34 PM, Andreas Boehmer wrote:
Out of curiosity: what's your stand to the 216 web colours? Do you
stick
with them or do you go the full 16 bits?
I personally have stopped limiting myself a long time ago (unless
absolutely necessary), but keep coming across articles warning me
Out of curiosity: what's your stand to the 216 web colours? Do you stick
with them or do you go the full 16 bits?
Honest answer - WHAT? your monitor only supports 216 colours??!
Hahahaaa... 16.7 million too much to handle? ;)
Half decent answer - It's a bit like making sure all is well at
Would you be able to enumerate each point in your
reply? I wasn't able to follow the structure of it.
Sincerely,
--
Cameron
W: www.themaninblue.com
--- russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
er, maybe it's my 'listless' disposition but why
would you put a
breadcrumb in a list? The
I will be away from 17 May to 28 May 2004.
Please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
This message is intended for the addressee named and may contain
confidential/privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please
delete it and notify the sender.
Views expressed in this message are
On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 19:55:38 +1300, David McDonald
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I've noticed in the code on Russ 'listopathic' page, that h2 and
other tags are inside li tags eg:
li id=header
h1What is the obsession with lists?/h1
/li
I've seen this other places
I just tossed my site through that web optimization service
(http://www.websiteoptimization.com/), and it returned a very peculiar
review: it counted and weighed every single image being pointed to from
my CSS file, even though the HTML page that I had it review only used a
fraction of them.
Andreas Boehmer asked:
Out of curiosity: what's your stand to the 216 web colours? Do you
stick
with them or do you go the full 16 bits?
I subscribe to the More Crayons school of thought:
http://www.morecrayons.com/
That gives me 4,096 colours while also allowing me to predict *how*
they will
John Wells wrote:
Which begs the question, when a stylesheet is loaded up by a browser,
will that browser automatically attempt to load every referenced
image, regardless of it being called by the HTML file?
This question's come up before - and the answer is... (of course) it
varies from
Thanks, Jeremy for the link to More Crayons. I have just changed every
color on the site I am working on to More Crayons colors and the results
are great - the new colors are indistinguishable from the originals
but much more web safe.
Lyn Patterson
Kay,
I appreciated your advice about www.websiteoptimization , but i think that
service its not enougth to analyses if the css and html have the rigth size
or not.
I think that an emphiric and softwarless analisys, can be more useful.
Genau Lopes Júnior
WebDesigner
- Original Message
why not to stick with UTF-8 and UTF-16 for Chinese?
On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 14:47:32 +1000, Neerav [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Thats interesting, personally I like to be specific about the charset eg:
Chinese Traditional
Taiwan, Hong Kong
meta http-equiv=Content-type content=text/html;
Hi,
This is my first post, I have been silently gobbling up info.
I have designed a website for a friend www.pacifichomeloans.com.au which
seems to look ok in IE on Windows, however not in Mac IE.
The css is at www.pacifichomeloans.com.au/styleshome.css
I have validated the XHTML although it
Ok, I consider myself fairly savvy in XHTML, but for the life of me I
can't figure out what the cite attribute of blockquote is really good
for if it doesn't display to the end user. If you are quoting something
that needs to be cited, shouldn't it be in a way that any reader can see
the
There is this format for presenting quotes
As CITEHarry S. Truman/CITE said,
Q lang=en-usThe buck stops here./Q
More info here : http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/text.html#edef-CITE
On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 10:57:09 -0500, Daniel Bowling
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Ok, I consider myself fairly
Daniel Bowling wrote:
shouldn't it be in a way that any reader can see
the attribution?
Of course. Unfortunately, this is a user agent issue, and no mainstream
browser (as far as I'm aware of) exposes this attribute to the user. It
*can* be visually displayed via CSS (:before / :after and the
Sean Naden wrote:
er, maybe it's my 'listless' disposition but why would you put a
breadcrumb in a list? The usual gt; seperators seem ideal
...except that it does not, intrinsically, have any structure or
semantic meaning if it's just a line of text with an arbitrary character
as separator.
Clayton Lengel-Zigich wrote:
There is this format for presenting quotes
As CITEHarry S. Truman/CITE said,
Q lang=en-usThe buck stops here./Q
The problem with that (and yes, I know it's an official W3C example) is
that it does not unequivocally link the CITE with the Q (not in the same
way that,
Anything happening in the UK at all?
Patrick H. Lauke
_
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
I agree, the usefulness of an uncoupled citation is much lower than one
not specifically within the tag. What if many quotes where used near
each other inline-- huge usability concerns I would guess.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick
The problem with that (and yes, I know it's an official W3C example) is
that it does not unequivocally link the CITE with the Q (not in the same
way that, for instance, LABEL is linked to an INPUT or other form
control via the FOR attribute). So the relationship between those two
elements is
It's about walking a fine (sane) line, and in many cases realising that
the semantic structures offered by (x)html are actually quite limited,
and you won't always find the exact right set of elements that
perfectly fit your real-world content...so it turns into a question of
triage.
I think this
Clayton Lengel-Zigich wrote:
That is a good point, however is there an instance where the two would
not appear to be linked when viewing the page? (e.g. a screen reader
or something)
Ok, aside from any automated harvesting tools or whatever, consider the
scenario of a screenreader user who skips
Ryan Nichols wrote:
I think this is where Xhtml has it's (eventual) power. Since it's
extensible, you could use your own DTD, which has extra tags and markup
which contains the semantic meaning you need. Then via CSS and
javascript, you can alter/style the data anyway you need for the client.
Have you looked at it in Firefox? Or Safari? It looks even further off ;)
Might want to not call the image in the background and use that to keep the
content down where you want it. I think it's cause you are relying on the
list of links in the top to push things down and the font renders awfully
On 22 Oct 2004, at 12:17 AM, Craig Millman wrote:
This is my first post, I have been silently gobbling up info.
I have designed a website for a friend www.pacifichomeloans.com.au
which
seems to look ok in IE on Windows, however not in Mac IE.
The css is at
I have different colored backgrounds on several pages and have put them
is the css as follows:
#[name of page] #container {background-color: #dff;}
#[next page] #container {background-color: #ffd;} and so on.
Then I have
#[name of page] #floatimgleft {background-color: #dff;}
#[next page]
Hello,
This example below...
p
label class=blank for=input_phone_1
select name=input_phone_1_type id=input_phone_1_type
option value=Please Select/option
option value=work selected=selectedwork/option
option value=homehome/option
option
Lyn Patterson wrote:
have I left out commas or something?
Yes.
#[name of page] #container, #[name of page] #floatimgleft
{background-color: #dff;}
Patrick H. Lauke
_
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re-
Comma is the correct answer:
#[name of page] #floatimgleft, #[next page] #floatimgleft
{background-color: #dff;}
unless I'm wrong? but that makes sense to me
later,
Z
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·
Z u l e m a O r t i z
W e b D e s i g n e r
email : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
website :
Here's a link to an article that convinced me the Websafe colour palette
sits alongside Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster ...
http://webmonkey.wired.com/webmonkey/00/37/index2a.html?tw=design
Cheers,
Kevin Futter
On 21/10/04 4:49 PM, Neerav [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 22 Oct 2004, at 9:59 AM, Lyn Patterson wrote:
#[name of page] #container #floatimgleft {background-color: #dff;}
but it didn't work. Only the last mentioned (#floatimgleft) worked and
(#container) reverted to general background color. Is there a way to
combine them - have I left out commas
but it didn't work. Only the last mentioned (#floatimgleft) worked and
(#container) reverted to general background color. Is there a way to
combine them - have I left out commas or something?
As Pat said, the comma is needed. More info here:
Patrick, Lachlan and Zulema
Thanks for prompt replies - it works !
Lyn
Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
Lyn Patterson wrote:
have I left out commas or something?
Yes.
#[name of page] #container, #[name of page] #floatimgleft
{background-color: #dff;}
Patrick H. Lauke
Nick Lo wrote:
So my question is really; is the label around a select element
essentially pointless?
Labels are a good thing, both from an accessibility and usability point
of view. So no, not pointless at all.
Read http://www.webaim.org/techniques/forms/2#labels for a soft
introduction on
On 22 Oct 2004, at 10:15 AM, Nick Lo wrote:
p
label class=blank for=input_phone_1
select name=input_phone_1_type id=input_phone_1_type
option value=Please Select/option
option value=work selected=selectedwork/option
option value=homehome/option
option
Thanks, Nick and thanks for the links, Russ - have bookmarked them.
Lyn
Nick Gleitzman wrote:
On 22 Oct 2004, at 9:59 AM, Lyn Patterson wrote:
#[name of page] #container #floatimgleft {background-color: #dff;}
but it didn't work. Only the last mentioned (#floatimgleft) worked
and (#container)
Hi Patrick,
Thanks for your response, unfortunately that wasn't my question though
I realise at a glance it's how my question read. It was specifically
referring to this type of instance...
p
label class=blank for=input_phone_1
select name=input_phone_1_type id=input_phone_1_type
Nick Lo wrote:
Thanks for your response, unfortunately that wasn't my question though
I realise at a glance it's how my question read. It was specifically
referring to this type of instance...
p
label class=blank for=input_phone_1
select name=input_phone_1_type id=input_phone_1_type
Thanks Nick,
Well, no... but it needs to be used correctly. The label element
allows the text label for a form input to become 'live' (ie clickable)
to enlarge the target for, say, a radio button - but it needs to wrap
around the element it refers to. You have the label for
id=input_phone_1
Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
[snip] consider the scenario of a screenreader user who skips from
paragraph to paragraph, and ends up on the second paragraph of this
pciteHarry S. Truman/cite said,
q lang=en-usThe buck stops here./q/p
...
pHe then also said qsomething else entirely/q./p
Now, assuming
On 22 Oct 2004, at 02:23, Paul Connolley wrote:
[snip] consider the scenario of a screenreader user who skips from
paragraph to paragraph, and ends up on the second paragraph of this
[snip a whole load more]
I'll reiterate that
I see that I reiterated nothing. I've missed a bit out that I
Oops...should really make it a habit to actually read the questions
properly before storming in with what I think is the answer *blush*
P
Nick Lo wrote:
Hi Patrick,
Thanks for your response, unfortunately that wasn't my question though I
realise at a glance it's how my question read. It was
This is what a user (accessing with IBM homepage reader) hears for your
example form:
(Start of select menu with 6 items.)
work[Selected.]
(End of select menu.)
[Text.]
doesn't appear very informative?
with regards
Steven Faulkner
Web Accessibility Consultant
National Information Library
Nick Lo wrote:
snip /
As I've just put at...
http://www.trikeinteractive.com/form_example.html
I like the idea...but have a look at it in firefox 1.0 and you'll see
why it probably isn't a good idea.
each time I click on the dropdown the input box gets the focus, thus
proving v.difficult to
Paul Connolley wrote:
This is a perfectly natural English language grammar.
Sorry, wasn't advocating changing the writing style, but having a
mechanism in place to unequivocally tie a CITE course to Q or BLOCKQUOTE
and have those pesky browsers actually expose that information to the
user
Nick Lo wrote:
Perhaps this is a case where it needs a nested label like...
p
label class=blank for=input_phone_1
label class=blank for=input_phone_1_typePhone type/label
select name=input_phone_1_type id=input_phone_1_type
option value=Please Select/option
option
Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
Paul Connolley wrote:
This is a perfectly natural English language grammar.
Sorry, wasn't advocating changing the writing style, but having a
mechanism in place to unequivocally tie a CITE course to Q or
BLOCKQUOTE
My apologies also if I came across wrong. I agree with
Please do not associate multiple label elemnts with
an input or multiple inputs with a single label element, both things will
bugger up the associations for assistive tech (which is a major reason to
use labels in the first place. )
in either case it is also not valid HTML.
with regards
It does work with tabbing/arrows/keyboard only in FF, but the focus
unless you continue to hold the mouse as you draw down the drop down
does leave to the formfield, which goes against what user expect of a
select box, though it does actually work in FF 1.0
Though it does associate the label
Wow, so many responses... must type fast...just knocked up what must be
a better solution:
http://www.trikeinteractive.com/form_example.html
However notice how the first is actually less laborious visually in
terms of how we use desktop applications.
I'm thinking of for example OS X Address
Really a browser doesn't understand what any of the tags are. What you
see are only the browsers default behavior at rendering certain items
it's aware of in the DTD. This was all put in by whoever made the
browser, and is totally up to the browser. Default renderings are not
specified in W3C.
Steven Faulkner just made me realise I've not yet seen or asked about
set-ups for actually testing sites using speech/text readers.
There are plenty of articles on browser testing but how would you go
about setting up an environment for testing via speech/text readers.
I use a Mac for
Nick,
i think your second solution is on the money.
you wrote:
However notice how the first is actually less laborious visually in
terms of how we use desktop applications.
You can hide the visual display of text labels if you want
see:
Invisible Form Prompts -
Nick
You can download a trial (30 days) copy of IBM homepage reader (web
browser): [windows only]
http://www-3.ibm.com/able/solution_offerings/hpr.html
this is a good tool for getting a feel for how your pages are heard as
it is simpler/easier to use than full blown screen readers such as JAWS.
Ryan Nichols wrote:
Really a browser doesn't understand what any of the tags are. What you
see are only the browsers default behavior at rendering certain items
it's aware of in the DTD.
A browser doesn't understand of course. It parses. Behaviour is
programmed in HTML user agents.
This was all
On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:15:53 +1000, Nick Lo wrote:
So my question is really; is the label around a select element
essentially pointless?
Nick,
have you looked a the fieldset tag?
Its useful for grouping fields together.
HIH
Lea
--
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/
Hi Steven,
Yes that's a solution I'd considered and on thinking about it/reading
that article I realised yet another point:
I use the label class to indicate required elements. So if this part of
the form was submitted but not filled in:
label class=blank for=input_phone_2_typePhone Type/label
Multiple labels for a single form control is valid HTML, however a
single label for multiple form controls is not:
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/forms.html#h-17.9
Steven, can you be more specific about the barriers multiple labels present?
TIA
./tdw
On 2004-10-22 2:56 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Hello again,
Wow, I have to say I expected a short list but not as few as that. I
know of course about JAWS but the pricing is quite prohibitive. It
really is an area crying out for some open source input as in:
http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gap/AT/Gnopernicus/
Sad, as although there are
Hi Lea,
have you looked a the fieldset tag?
Its useful for grouping fields together.
Yes, in fact that example is an excerpt from a larger form that is
enclosed in a fieldset with a legend. Though what my example
highlighted was the finer points of accessibility I wasn't capturing.
Thanks,
Nick
Someone said once that there was a version of JAWS that would work for 40
hours or something like that - which is a LOT of testing. (40 hours as in 10
minutes here, 5 minutes there etc)
Can anyone confirm that?
**
Jason Foss
Almost Anything Desktop Publishing
Hi TIA,
in Nicks' example, which i was referring to, there were label elements
inside other label elements wrapped around a form control,
which is not valid,
but thanks for pointing out about the explicit [for/id] association of
multiple labels to a control, it hadn't occured to me before.
I
looks like its 40 minutes not 40 hours :-((
The Free Demo download of JAWS for Windows is a full featured product. It includes
the synthesizer and everything you'll need to install and operate JAWS for 40
Thanks for your advice Nick and Jesse.
I have downloaded Firefox and have started from scratch.
The page is at www.pacifichomeloans.com.au and css at
www.pacifichomeloans.com.au/styleshome.css
The page is looking fine in Firefox (apart from my #maintitle not starting
at the top of the page) and
Oh well... I knew it was 40 somethings! ;-p
On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:43:17 +1000,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
looks like its 40 minutes not 40 hours :-((
The Free Demo download of JAWS for Windows is a full featured product. It includes
the synthesizer and everything you'll
Take a look at pwWebSpeak [http://www.soundlinks.com/pwgen.htm].
"If you are a visually impaired individual, or are
using the software to evaluate sites for accessibility, you may use the
software freely, but will not be entitled to support."
djn
--
Dejan Kozina Web Design Studio
Dolina
Craig,
The main issue would appear to be as follows:
Mac IE 5 wrongly clears floats inside clearing block elements, and you
can't fix it with clear:none;.
The easy way to solve it is to add a standalone clearer to your HTML
(say after a navigation bar that you need to clear). It may need to be
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