Re: [XFree86] Mailing list behaviour and etiquette, in general
Jay R. Ashworth writes: Actually, the address for Mr Bateman on the appropriate page seems to be dead, I was hoping that either my list posting might drag him out, or that Egbert might forward. David has other obligations that don't allow him to support the CT driver at the moment. It is worth trying 4.3.0 if you haven't already, or even something more recent by downloading the XFree86 server and relevant module binaries from Alan's page (www.xfree86.org/~alanh). Ok, I was wondering -- it's apparently a real pain to get 4.3 RPM's for 7.3 (which is the largest thing I can comfortably run on my laptop); Mike isn't building for that anymore, and no one else is either... and compiling all of X on a P-233... well, I wouldn't even wish that on me. I have made a patch now which takes care of some of the problems. I cannot fix the artefacts that appear in the video overlay once the video source has a certain size. I assume that this is a limitation in the HW somewhere. I can send you a binary for 4.3. however I assume that this will not work for the version of XFree86 that was shipped with RH 7.3. I guess I'll try to setup a build machine. Course, it'll probably take me a month to figure out how to build X from scratch... :-} That's easier than you think. 1. You get the tree. 2. You change into the to directory. Assuming the tree is in your home: cd ~/xc 3. You start the build: make World 4. You have some coffee. 5. Build is done. For more information please check xc/INSTALL-X.org Egbert. ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Mailing list behaviour and etiquette, in general
On Mon, Jul 14, 2003 at 09:16:17PM +0200, Egbert Eich wrote: Jay R. Ashworth writes: Actually, the address for Mr Bateman on the appropriate page seems to be dead, I was hoping that either my list posting might drag him out, or that Egbert might forward. David has other obligations that don't allow him to support the CT driver at the moment. Rog. No problem. It is worth trying 4.3.0 if you haven't already, or even something more recent by downloading the XFree86 server and relevant module binaries from Alan's page (www.xfree86.org/~alanh). Ok, I was wondering -- it's apparently a real pain to get 4.3 RPM's for 7.3 (which is the largest thing I can comfortably run on my laptop); Mike isn't building for that anymore, and no one else is either... and compiling all of X on a P-233... well, I wouldn't even wish that on me. I have made a patch now which takes care of some of the problems. I cannot fix the artefacts that appear in the video overlay once the video source has a certain size. I assume that this is a limitation in the HW somewhere. Note, as I mentioned, that this was happening even in non-zoom mode; one source file was 320x200, and still have problems, another 640x480, likewise. I can send you a binary for 4.3. however I assume that this will not work for the version of XFree86 that was shipped with RH 7.3. Likely not. A binary of the driver? IE, if I can get a 4.3 built, it will drop in? Sure. I guess I'll try to setup a build machine. Course, it'll probably take me a month to figure out how to build X from scratch... :-} That's easier than you think. 1. You get the tree. 2. You change into the to directory. Assuming the tree is in your home: cd ~/xc 3. You start the build: make World 4. You have some coffee. 5. Build is done. For more information please check xc/INSTALL-X.org Does it build that cleanly these days? No pre-req hell? Cool. That's from the distribution, right; not cvs? Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth[EMAIL PROTECTED] Member of the Technical Staff Baylink RFC 2100 The Suncoast Freenet The Things I Think Tampa Bay, Floridahttp://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 647 1274 OS X: Because making Unix user-friendly was easier than debugging Windows -- Simon Slavin, on a.f.c ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Mailing list behaviour and etiquette, in general
Jay R. Ashworth writes: On Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 10:58:56PM -0400, gabe f wrote: So then, why do you subscribe to the list, you could just read the emails on the website, thereby saving all of that internet traffic, by only viewing the email body text that appealed to you by its subject, and you wouldn't have to deal with those harmful vacation auto-replies, either? Cause I asked a question (which has drawn *no* replies, BTW -- mostly, probably, cause I'd already asked the point guy on the topic and he didn't know), and subscribing to follow the answers *is what you do*. I stayed on a) waiting to see if someone picked up the questions and b) in case someone asked one I could answer -- much the same reason I'm on the Linux Gazette Answer Gang. Yes, this 'point guy' was me. I tried to help you as good as I could, however communication was kind of tedious as you emails came back bouncing with : - Transcript of session follows - [EMAIL PROTECTED]... Deferred: Connection timed out with firewall.jachomes.com. Message could not be delivered for 5 days Message will be deleted from queue I don't think you will find anyone else on this list who still has expertise about CT chips. Furthermore I don't think you can complain that I have given you impolite answers. I have scheduled to look into the offset problem you are seeing. However there are more things in XFree86 I need to take care of so I was not able to do so immediately. the internet has more than one field, by the way. I doubt you're in a personnel/user related area. Almost all of them in 20 years, except maybe BGP4. *Lots* of front line user hand-holding and training, in fact -- including teaching people how to work their mail user agents for best effect. So that poor configuration choices on mailing lists won't bite *them*. :-) And between your attitude and David's, I must say, I can see why there was a fuss with Keith, and why people suggested that he fork the project. If y'all can't be bothered to be polite anymore, go find something else to do, 'k? I don't see where David's answers been impolite - or anybody else. Linking this issue to the discussion about a fork is neither fair nor productive. My main intention starting this thread was to point out that many of those seeking support may never receive an answer. I had no intention to provoke a general political flamewar. We instead need a pragmatic solution for our problem - unless we want to keep making support for the garbage bin. Egbert. ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Mailing list behaviour and etiquette, in general
On Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 11:23:51PM -0400, Jay R. Ashworth wrote: See? I'm not really a snot. Even though I did ask *about* the cleanest question on the list in the 2 weeks I've been here, and got not one answer from anyone... Unfortunately if Egbert and David Bateman don't have any hints for you, you might have a hard time finding someone else here who does. I don't know if the technical docs for the 6 are available, but at some point you might want to dive into the code and see if you can find the problem. It is worth trying 4.3.0 if you haven't already, or even something more recent by downloading the XFree86 server and relevant module binaries from Alan's page (www.xfree86.org/~alanh). David -- David Dawes Founder/committer/developer The XFree86 Project www.XFree86.org/~dawes ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Mailing list behaviour and etiquette, in general
On Friday 11 July 2003 05:04 pm, Egbert Eich wrote: My main intention starting this thread was to point out that many of those seeking support may never receive an answer. Good point -- I'm sort of a lurker on this and some other xfree86 lists but I have responded to a few questions -- I made the (bad) assumption that responding to the list got the answer back to the questioner. My first tack on a problem like this would be to add something like this to the footer: Respond to the list and to the questioner (better word?) -- this is an open list and many questioners are not subscribed. (Or something like that -- the shorter, while still being clear to less experienced mail list users, the better.) Randy Kramer (responding only to the list in this case ;-) ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Mailing list behaviour and etiquette, in general
On Fri, Jul 11, 2003 at 11:26:57AM -0400, David Dawes wrote: See? I'm not really a snot. Even though I did ask *about* the cleanest question on the list in the 2 weeks I've been here, and got not one answer from anyone... Unfortunately if Egbert and David Bateman don't have any hints for you, you might have a hard time finding someone else here who does. I don't know if the technical docs for the 6 are available, but at some point you might want to dive into the code and see if you can find the problem. Actually, the address for Mr Bateman on the appropriate page seems to be dead, I was hoping that either my list posting might drag him out, or that Egbert might forward. It is worth trying 4.3.0 if you haven't already, or even something more recent by downloading the XFree86 server and relevant module binaries from Alan's page (www.xfree86.org/~alanh). Ok, I was wondering -- it's apparently a real pain to get 4.3 RPM's for 7.3 (which is the largest thing I can comfortably run on my laptop); Mike isn't building for that anymore, and no one else is either... and compiling all of X on a P-233... well, I wouldn't even wish that on me. I guess I'll try to setup a build machine. Course, it'll probably take me a month to figure out how to build X from scratch... :-} Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth[EMAIL PROTECTED] Member of the Technical Staff Baylink RFC 2100 The Suncoast Freenet The Things I Think Tampa Bay, Floridahttp://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 647 1274 OS X: Because making Unix user-friendly was easier than debugging Windows -- Simon Slavin, on a.f.c ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Mailing list behaviour and etiquette, in general
On Fri, Jul 11, 2003 at 05:04:09PM +0200, Egbert Eich wrote: Cause I asked a question (which has drawn *no* replies, BTW -- mostly, probably, cause I'd already asked the point guy on the topic and he didn't know), and subscribing to follow the answers *is what you do*. I stayed on a) waiting to see if someone picked up the questions and b) in case someone asked one I could answer -- much the same reason I'm on the Linux Gazette Answer Gang. Yes, this 'point guy' was me. I tried to help you as good as I could, however communication was kind of tedious as you emails came back bouncing with : - Transcript of session follows - [EMAIL PROTECTED]... Deferred: Connection timed out with firewall.jachomes.com. Message could not be delivered for 5 days Message will be deleted from queue Yeah, DNS problems you can't control suck, don't they? I don't think you will find anyone else on this list who still has expertise about CT chips. Furthermore I don't think you can complain that I have given you impolite answers. And you'll note that I didn't -- I went out of my way to point out that you had tried. I have scheduled to look into the offset problem you are seeing. However there are more things in XFree86 I need to take care of so I was not able to do so immediately. Oh. Cool. Thanks. the internet has more than one field, by the way. I doubt you're in a personnel/user related area. Almost all of them in 20 years, except maybe BGP4. *Lots* of front line user hand-holding and training, in fact -- including teaching people how to work their mail user agents for best effect. So that poor configuration choices on mailing lists won't bite *them*. :-) And between your attitude and David's, I must say, I can see why there was a fuss with Keith, and why people suggested that he fork the project. If y'all can't be bothered to be polite anymore, go find something else to do, 'k? I don't see where David's answers been impolite - or anybody else. Linking this issue to the discussion about a fork is neither fair nor productive. My main intention starting this thread was to point out that many of those seeking support may never receive an answer. I had no intention to provoke a general political flamewar. The flamewar was completely orthogonal to my support problem, really. We instead need a pragmatic solution for our problem - unless we want to keep making support for the garbage bin. I guess I'll have to pretend I parsed that. In any event, thanks for your help, Egbert. Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth[EMAIL PROTECTED] Member of the Technical Staff Baylink RFC 2100 The Suncoast Freenet The Things I Think Tampa Bay, Floridahttp://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 647 1274 OS X: Because making Unix user-friendly was easier than debugging Windows -- Simon Slavin, on a.f.c ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Mailing list behaviour and etiquette, in general
On Fri, 11 Jul 2003, Randy Kramer wrote: have responded to a few questions -- I made the (bad) assumption that responding to the list got the answer back to the questioner. No :( Saying that they should subscribe doesn't help, either. Most of them are not able to read/comply with instructions like send us you log file, here is the full path: xxx... Respond to the list and to the questioner (better word?) -- this is an open list and many questioners are not subscribed. (Or something like that -- the shorter, while still being clear to less experienced mail list users, the better.) My preference would be if people got an explanatory letter the first time they wrote to the list telling: 0) that s/h/it is not a customer (in a different wording, of course) 1) that it is a mailing list (and what a mailing list is, perhaps) 2) that there are archives, so the question may already have been answered (with a URL to such an archive) 3) that the answer come to the list but there is no guarantee that it will also be sent to you (i.e. the one sending the email to the list) 4) you can subscribe and unsubscribe easily. Most of these could/should have URLs leading to more comple/wordy explanations. I realize that such a letter would require some fancy scripting to get right (and I am not volunteering) :( Much of the problem can be avoid by other means, for example by having the X server print a version-specific URL instead of an email address when it crashes or is misconfigured. That page should have a FAQ for the most common problems and a link to the mailman interface for the mailing list. It should NOT list the email address directly -- people would just use that without thinking. Another thing is that the footer with the link to the mailman interface really ought to mention the word unsubscribe. -Peter Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day; Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Mailing list behaviour and etiquette, in general
Randy Kramer writes: Good point -- I'm sort of a lurker on this and some other xfree86 lists but I have responded to a few questions -- I made the (bad) assumption that responding to the list got the answer back to the questioner. My first tack on a problem like this would be to add something like this to the footer: Respond to the list and to the questioner (better word?) -- this is an open list and many questioners are not subscribed. (Or something like that -- the shorter, while still being clear to less experienced mail list users, the better.) Well, we have learned that this behavior is intended, therefore it's the one who posts who will get an auto reply asking him to take care that he does receive an answer. Egbert. ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Mailing list behaviour and etiquette, in general
somewhere around Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:38:22 -0400 J.R. Hartley wrote: Ok, I was wondering -- it's apparently a real pain to get 4.3 RPM's for 7.3 (which is the largest thing I can comfortably run on my laptop); Mike isn't building for that anymore, and no one else is either... and compiling all of X on a P-233... well, I wouldn't even wish that on me. That's wot I dun. Just prise those fingers away from the keyboard while it is compiling, and find something else to do like watching TV for several hours, smoke a fag, have some lunch, make a nice cup of tea for the vicar, etc etc. ~(sirromseventyfive)~ _ On the move? Get Hotmail on your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/msnmobile ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Mailing list behaviour and etiquette, in general
On Friday 11 July 2003 08:37 pm, Egbert Eich wrote: Well, we have learned that this behavior is intended, therefore it's the one who posts who will get an auto reply asking him to take care that he does receive an answer. Thanks for the reply. I guess I'm used to the belt and suspenders approach ;-) Randy Kramer ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
[XFree86] Mailing list behaviour and etiquette, in general
On Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 10:58:56PM -0400, gabe f wrote: So then, why do you subscribe to the list, you could just read the emails on the website, thereby saving all of that internet traffic, by only viewing the email body text that appealed to you by its subject, and you wouldn't have to deal with those harmful vacation auto-replies, either? Cause I asked a question (which has drawn *no* replies, BTW -- mostly, probably, cause I'd already asked the point guy on the topic and he didn't know), and subscribing to follow the answers *is what you do*. I stayed on a) waiting to see if someone picked up the questions and b) in case someone asked one I could answer -- much the same reason I'm on the Linux Gazette Answer Gang. the internet has more than one field, by the way. I doubt you're in a personnel/user related area. Almost all of them in 20 years, except maybe BGP4. *Lots* of front line user hand-holding and training, in fact -- including teaching people how to work their mail user agents for best effect. So that poor configuration choices on mailing lists won't bite *them*. :-) And between your attitude and David's, I must say, I can see why there was a fuss with Keith, and why people suggested that he fork the project. If y'all can't be bothered to be polite anymore, go find something else to do, 'k? No, really. FOSS doesn't need any bad attitudes, even this late in it's evolution. Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth[EMAIL PROTECTED] Member of the Technical Staff Baylink RFC 2100 The Suncoast Freenet The Things I Think Tampa Bay, Floridahttp://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 647 1274 OS X: Because making Unix user-friendly was easier than debugging Windows -- Simon Slavin, on a.f.c ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Mailing list behaviour and etiquette, in general
On Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 09:59:02PM -0400, Jay R. Ashworth wrote: And between your attitude and David's, I must say, I can see why there was a fuss with Keith, and why people suggested that he fork the project. If y'all I've been making that suggestion too. Haven't seen anything come of it yet. Hopefully y'all won't have to wait too much longer. can't be bothered to be polite anymore, go find something else to do, 'k? No, really. FOSS doesn't need any bad attitudes, even this late in it's evolution. If objecting to your misrepresentation of your opinion as right vs wrong is a sign of a bad attitude, then cool. I don't know why you fail to consider that in a project as old as XFree86 this tired old issue wasn't considered and dispatched a long long time ago. It was. If you want to look at it as cost vs benefit, the benefit to the subscribers (and archives) as a whole in maximising the chance that they'll see all the discussions outweighs the cost of the occasional misdirected private reply, in my experience over the life of XFree86. It works for us. Unlike you, I'm not claiming that one solution is best for all situations. As I said in another message today, you can set your own reply-to, and it won't get overriden, so some of the stuff on Chip's page doesn't even apply here. A warning from the Surgeon General: Mail sent to this list may be infected by a reply-to header pointing back to the list. Some experts consider this harmful. The most reliable way to avoid this potential harm is to unsubscribe from this list. :-) David -- David Dawes Founder/committer/developer The XFree86 Project www.XFree86.org/~dawes ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
