RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

[BillSmart]

Ed,

My comments are embedded below:

[Ed] Questions, as usual, to ask oneself concening 'experience', with a view
to clarify its meaning:
Can the following be classified as kosher/halal experiences?
o  A pentecostal Christian who has had a born-again experience?
[Bill!] My opinion is that being born-again in the Christian context is not
an experience, it is an illusion.

o  Tony Blair's sister-in-law who recently reported a transcendental
experience in Qum, Iran - and converted to Islam?
[Bill!] Again, this is not an experience, this is an illusion.

o  A Jewish woman whom I encountered in a group some years ago, who had a
mystical experience of Allah and converted to Islam?
[Bill!]  An illusion.

[Bill!]  Viewing a sunset is an experience.  Feeling warm rain fall on your
face is an experience.  Hearing birds sing is an experience.  Tasting a
peach is an experience.  Smelling a dead dog rotting on the highway is an
experience.  The placing of any significance other than Just THIS! on the
viewing, feeling, hearing, tasting or smelling of any of these things is
creating illusions - and this certainly includes believing that any of these
have a spiritual significance.

...Bill!
 

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RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Ed,

My remarks are embedded below:

> [Bill! from a previous post] I understand 'compassion' to mean 'to be
aware of the feelings of
> others'. Merriam-Webster Online defines it as "sympathetic consciousness
of
> others' distress together with a desire to alleviate it". That definition
> satisfies me.
 
[Ed] The definition is consonant with ones I have seen in Buddhist texts. 
However, questions come to mind (as usual):
o   Is possessing 'compassion' a badge of merit, or is it a normal and
natural aspect of human nature?
[Bill!] Some, St. Thomas Aquinas for one and Buddhists for another example,
believe that having compassion is a highly desirable quality.  I believe it
is a normal and natural aspect of human nature, but like a lot of normal and
natural aspects of human nature it doesn't function well while we are living
in a world of illusion.   

o   Is not  "sympathetic consciousness of others' distress together with a
desire to alleviate it" none other than a stipulation that a person
not possess genes for autism?
[Bill!]  I don't know anything worthwhile to say about genes, but I don't
see a lot of people displaying compassion - especially for people that are
unknown to them, different from them or engaged in activities that are
problematic for them.  In other words I think compassion is the exception
and not the rule.

o  And when we do experience compassion, is it not usually selectively
directed toward persons we feel connected to in some way?
[Bill!]  Yes, this seems to be the case for most people.

o  For instance, do we feel compassion for the million-plus
war-widows caused by the US/UK/Australian invasion of Iraq?
[Bill!]  I believe most Yanks/Brits/Aussies don't.  They are taught to
de-humanize the enemies of their particular country.  I think a lot of Arabs
do.

...Bill!
 

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Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Lluís Mendieta]

Good evening to all
Just a new member, that feels buddhist, albeit in Mahayana or Tantrayana, not 
exactly Zen

In Buddhism, as I understand, nothing is "ones personal".
All is for all sentient beings.
Compassion is not a badge.
Is what we should feel, as we need as a whole

We all should reach nirvana. And no one will be free when still any sentient 
being has not reached nirvana. Or so I have understood. And I know that is 
hard, specially for me that I am not native english speaker, to verbalize such 
concepts
Boddhishatva will explain...

Anyway, my best wihes to all and my special wishes to the moderator who invited 
me (sorry, still tied to mundane things)
And,as I learned in other forum, peace

With best wishes

Lluís
  - Original Message - 
  From: ED 
  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 3:20 PM
  Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas





   

  Bill wrote:

  > [Bill!] I understand 'compassion' to mean 'to be aware of the feelings of
  > others'. Merriam-Webster Online defines it as "sympathetic consciousness of
  > others' distress together with a desire to alleviate it". That definition
  > satisfies me.



  Bill, Bill, Bill,

  The definition is consonant with ones I have seen in Buddhist texts. 

  However, questions come to mind (as usual):

  o   Is possessing 'compassion' a badge of merit, or is it a normal and 
natural aspect of human nature?

  o   Is not  "sympathetic consciousness of others' distress together with a 
desire to alleviate it" none other than a stipulation that a person not possess 
genes for autism?

  o  And when we do experience compassion, is it not usually selectively 
directed toward persons we feel connected to in some way?

  o  For instance, do we feel compassion for the million-plus war-widows caused 
by the US/UK/Australian invasion of Iraq?

  --ED



  --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
  >
  > Ed, Ed, Ed.
  > 
  > I posted a quote attributed to St. Thomas Aquinas:
  > 
  > "I would rather feel compassion than know the meaning of it."
  > 
  > You then asked:
  > 
  > [Ed] Wherein do you perceive any intelligence or wisdom in St.
  > Augustine's preference?


  > [Bill!] I don't perceive any intelligence in St. Aquinas' statement above.
  > I do however perceive a lot of wisdom. I perceive the wisdom in his stated
  > preference for experience over knowledge.
  > 
  > [Ed] What does St. Augustine mean by 'compassion'?


  > [Bill!] I don't know and I don't care. The meaning of compassion is not
  > important in the quote, in fact the quote itself says that. You can
  > substitute any word you want for 'compassion' in his quote and the wisdom
  > will still be there.


  > [Ed] What do you understand 'compassion' to be?

  > [Bill!] I understand 'compassion' to mean 'to be aware of the feelings of
  > others'. Merriam-Webster Online defines it as "sympathetic consciousness of
  > others' distress together with a desire to alleviate it". That definition
  > satisfies me.

  > ...Bill!




  

Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

[ED]

Related phrases:   work experience
experience rating
user experience
out of body experience
outofbody
experience
near death
experience
neardeath
experience
experience points
jimi hendrix
experience




Definitions of experience on the Web:
* go or live through; "We had many trials to go through"; "he saw
action in Viet Nam" * know: have firsthand knowledge of states,
situations, emotions, or sensations; "I know the feeling!"; "have you
ever known hunger?"; "I have lived a kind of hell when I was a drug
addict"; "The holocaust survivors have lived a nightmare"; "I lived
through two divorces" * go through (mental or physical states or
experiences); "get an idea"; "experience vertigo"; "get nauseous";
"receive injuries"; "have a feeling" * the accumulation of knowledge
or skill that results from direct participation in events or activities;
"a man of experience"; "experience is the best teacher" * feel:
undergo an emotional sensation or be in a particular state of mind; "She
felt resentful"; "He felt regret" * have: undergo; "The stocks had a
fast run-up" * an event as apprehended; "a surprising experience";
"that painful experience certainly got our attention"
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn


* Experience as a general concept comprises knowledge of or skill in
or observation of some thing or some event gained through involvement in
or exposure to that thing or event. The history of the word experience
aligns it closely with the concept of experiment.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experience


Bill wrote:

> [Bill!] Is not 'merely' an assertion, it is an assertion! It is not
based
on conceptions or feelings. It is based on experience.


Bill,

Questions, as usual, to ask oneself concening 'experience', with a view
to clarify its meaning:

Can the following be classified as kosher/halal experiences?

o  A pentecostal Christian who has had a born-again experience?

o  Tony Blair's sister-in-law who recently reported a transcendental
experience in Qum, Iran - and converted to Islam?

o  A Jewish woman whom I encountered in a group some years ago, who had
a mystical experience of Allah and converted to Islam?

--ED




--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
> Ed,

> [Bill! from an earlier post] Tasting the peach with your whole being
is
EVERYTHING. It will save you, your friends, loved ones, all of humanity
and
all sentient beings.

> [Ed} That is merely an assertion (which might be based on illusory
conceptions, feelings and experiences.)

> [Bill!] Is not 'merely' an assertion, it is an assertion! It is not
based
on conceptions or feelings. It is based on experience.

> ...Bill!

[Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[ED]

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez  wrote:
>
> First feeling irritated and impatient.

I wonder why.

> Now reading this post feeling grateful to ED shooting questioning
provoking in each of us different reactions, making the wheel of the
dharma move.

Excellent perspective!

> No posting was better or worse. ...--Mayka

Every post is as useful as one's consciousness can make it.  --ED

[Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[ED]

Bill wrote:

> [Bill!] I understand 'compassion' to mean 'to be aware of the feelings
of
> others'. Merriam-Webster Online defines it as "sympathetic
consciousness of
> others' distress together with a desire to alleviate it". That
definition
> satisfies me.



Bill, Bill, Bill,

The definition is consonant with ones I have seen in Buddhist texts.

However, questions come to mind (as usual):

o   Is possessing 'compassion' a badge of merit, or is it a normal and
natural aspect of human nature?

o   Is not  "sympathetic consciousness of others' distress together with
a desire to alleviate it" none other than a stipulation that a person
not possess genes for autism?

o  And when we do experience compassion, is it not usually selectively
directed toward persons we feel connected to in some way?

o  For instance, do we feel compassion for the million-plus war-widows
caused by the US/UK/Australian invasion of Iraq?

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
> Ed, Ed, Ed…
>
> I posted a quote attributed to St. Thomas Aquinas:
>
> "I would rather feel compassion than know the meaning of it."
>
> You then asked:
>
> [Ed] Wherein do you perceive any intelligence or wisdom in St.
> Augustine's preference?


> [Bill!] I don't perceive any intelligence in St. Aquinas' statement
above.
> I do however perceive a lot of wisdom. I perceive the wisdom in his
stated
> preference for experience over knowledge.
>
> [Ed] What does St. Augustine mean by 'compassion'?


> [Bill!] I don't know and I don't care. The meaning of compassion is
not
> important in the quote, in fact the quote itself says that. You can
> substitute any word you want for 'compassion' in his quote and the
wisdom
> will still be there.


> [Ed] What do you understand 'compassion' to be?

> [Bill!] I understand 'compassion' to mean 'to be aware of the feelings
of
> others'. Merriam-Webster Online defines it as "sympathetic
consciousness of
> others' distress together with a desire to alleviate it". That
definition
> satisfies me.

> ...Bill!

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Maria Lopez]

First feeling irritated and impatient.  Now reading this post feeling grateful 
to ED shooting questioning provoking in each of us different reactions, making 
the wheel of the dharma move.  No posting was better or worse.  Each posting 
spontaneuous thoughts coming and going.  Nothing gained, nothing lost.  
 
 
 
 
 
t...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 2 November, 2010, 2:19


  



Ed, Ed, Ed…

I posted a quote attributed to St. Thomas Aquinas:

"I would rather feel compassion than know the meaning of it."

You then asked:

[Ed] Wherein do you perceive any intelligence or wisdom in St.
Augustine's preference?
[Bill!] I don't perceive any intelligence in St. Aquinas' statement above.
I do however perceive a lot of wisdom. I perceive the wisdom in his stated
preference for experience over knowledge.

[Ed] What does St. Augustine mean by 'compassion'?
[Bill!] I don't know and I don't care. The meaning of compassion is not
important in the quote, in fact the quote itself says that. You can
substitute any word you want for 'compassion' in his quote and the wisdom
will still be there.

[Ed] What do you understand 'compassion' to be?
[Bill!] I understand 'compassion' to mean 'to be aware of the feelings of
others'. Merriam-Webster Online defines it as "sympathetic consciousness of
others' distress together with a desire to alleviate it". That definition
satisfies me. An example would be:

I feel compassion towards you for reading that quote and then asking those
three questions.

...Bill! 


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