Re: [Zim-wiki] Discuss wish: Page templates

2009-06-25 Thread Dotan Cohen
2009/6/25 Emilis Dambauskas :
> Hi,
>
> I have a suggestion for this possible feature:
>
> - store templates in ~/.config/zim/templates/
> - store default templates also in this dir
>
> Initially I would agree with Vlastimil: show templates just like other pages
> in the main tree -- because "everything is a file".
>
> But if that's not going to happen... well I could at least customize the
> date format to the one that I like (without having to modify files outside
> of $HOME) :-)
>
> Just a suggestion.
>
>

I do not see how "everything is a file" is relevant to a user
application. Furthermore, if you want to use the *nix filesystem as
inspiration, there is the concept of hidden files because not every
file needs to be seen by the end user.


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Re: [Zim-wiki] Discuss wish: Page templates

2009-06-25 Thread Dotan Cohen
2009/6/25 Jaap Karssenberg :
> On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 11:21 AM, Dotan Cohen wrote:
>> 2009/6/25 Jaap Karssenberg :
>>> Then the next question is how to show these special namespaces in the
>>> interface. Should they be part of the index tree or should they have
>>> their own tree. If so, should both trees be visible in the side pane,
>>> should they be switchable ? etc.
>>>
>>
>> The templates most certainly should not be in the tree, no matter
>> what! The trash could be in the tree, I suppose, but it should be
>> distinguishable as a "special" branch. Maybe an icon, and having it at
>> the bottom of the tree always.
>
> For sure we need some kind of tree view for Trash, as it can contain a
> sub-tree. With the proposal to have a separate side-pane view for this
> it would have it's own tree, which may be more clearly separated from
> the rest of the index.
>

I bug 3366813 is implemented then the trash could go on the left:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/zim/+bug/366813

That would also make a single trash for all notebooks, which I think
is a very clean solution in this case. The trash is not used so often
where each notebook needs it's own trash, there would be more trash
folders than actual pages in the trash in that case!


> My first though was that templates would also require a tree, but I
> realize this is not the case. The template list can be a flat list. In
> that case a separate dialog to edit them is feasible. Still the editor
> used would be the same as is used for "normal" pages. Would need some
> progression on detaching an editor widget from the main application.
>

I think that having a tree of templates is going too far. A flat list is fine.


>>> I can imagine to have a dropdown at the top of the side pane which
>>> allows switching between "index" and "templates". Also "thrash" could
>>> be in this dropdown as well as a view for "search". Alternatively this
>>> could be done with vertical tabs along the side pane - but I feel that
>>> might take up too much space.
>>>
>>
>> I don't really like this idea. It is inconsistent with other
>> applications' behaviour and sounds intrusive.
>
> I see a lot of KDE application that either use a dropdown or vertical
> tabs to switch views in a side pane. Maybe templates do not belong in
> there, but search for sure is there for many applications, and thrash
> also seems to fit nicely there.
>

Kate does have tabs going down the side which is similar I suppose.
What other KDE apps have such a dropdown list? I'd like to look at the
implementation.


> All in all the full implementation is getting much more complex than
> the original proposal from Vlastimil. Someone would need to invest
> time to make it happen - preferably on the python code tree. At the
> moment I'm struggling to get that project back on target - so zero
> space in my planning at this moment.
>

Should we wait until the feature can actually be implemented before
discussing further? A lot could change between now and the time when
implementation is possible!

-- 
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Re: [Zim-wiki] Discuss wish: Page templates

2009-06-25 Thread Emilis Dambauskas

Hi,

I have a suggestion for this possible feature:

- store templates in ~/.config/zim/templates/
- store default templates also in this dir

Initially I would agree with Vlastimil: show templates just like other 
pages in the main tree -- because "everything is a file".


But if that's not going to happen... well I could at least customize the 
date format to the one that I like (without having to modify files 
outside of $HOME) :-)


Just a suggestion.

Jaap Karssenberg wrote:

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 11:21 AM, Dotan Cohen wrote:
  

2009/6/25 Jaap Karssenberg :


Then the next question is how to show these special namespaces in the
interface. Should they be part of the index tree or should they have
their own tree. If so, should both trees be visible in the side pane,
should they be switchable ? etc.

  

The templates most certainly should not be in the tree, no matter
what! The trash could be in the tree, I suppose, but it should be
distinguishable as a "special" branch. Maybe an icon, and having it at
the bottom of the tree always.



For sure we need some kind of tree view for Trash, as it can contain a
sub-tree. With the proposal to have a separate side-pane view for this
it would have it's own tree, which may be more clearly separated from
the rest of the index.

  

The templates would ideally be available when creating a new page. I
do not understand Polish, so I do not understand what was in the
screenshot, but a dropdown box with a choice of available templates
would be intuitive. A template editor under the Tools menu would let
the user create, delete, and edit templates. I do not think that
templates should be available across Zim, but rather per notebook. For
those who disagree, perhaps a checkbox for a Global option would help.
All templates could be stored as a hidden Zim notebook, with some form
of metadata to mention to which notebook they belong, or alternatively
as global.



My first though was that templates would also require a tree, but I
realize this is not the case. The template list can be a flat list. In
that case a separate dialog to edit them is feasible. Still the editor
used would be the same as is used for "normal" pages. Would need some
progression on detaching an editor widget from the main application.

  

I can imagine to have a dropdown at the top of the side pane which
allows switching between "index" and "templates". Also "thrash" could
be in this dropdown as well as a view for "search". Alternatively this
could be done with vertical tabs along the side pane - but I feel that
might take up too much space.

  

I don't really like this idea. It is inconsistent with other
applications' behaviour and sounds intrusive.



I see a lot of KDE application that either use a dropdown or vertical
tabs to switch views in a side pane. Maybe templates do not belong in
there, but search for sure is there for many applications, and thrash
also seems to fit nicely there.

All in all the full implementation is getting much more complex than
the original proposal from Vlastimil. Someone would need to invest
time to make it happen - preferably on the python code tree. At the
moment I'm struggling to get that project back on target - so zero
space in my planning at this moment.

Regards,

Jaap

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Re: [Zim-wiki] Discuss wish: Page templates

2009-06-25 Thread Dotan Cohen
> Try opening a page like "_foo" or " foo", in both cases you end up at "foo".
>

Try hitting Ctrl-N and entering " foo ". You get "_foo".


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Re: [Zim-wiki] Discuss wish: Page templates

2009-06-25 Thread Dotan Cohen
2009/6/25 Vlastimil Ott :
> Dne Čt 25. června 2009 11:51:39 Dotan Cohen napsal(a):
>
>> Yes, Zim is the editor. But so that they do not have to be shown in
>> the tree, I thought that the Tools menu would be best. What other
>> places are good?
>
> I have many  roots in the tree, another one is no problem - :Zim with 
> subtree.  I think they could
> be in the tree.
>

I feel that my tree is already too crowded. Also, the tree is for user
data, not Zim's internal files. I consider a template a Zim internal
file, even if I can modify it, because it contains settings not data.

>> Yes, that is exactly what I thought. But where would you go to edit
>> the templates, or add new ones? Tools -> Templates
>
> I'll go to :Zim:Template in the tree.
>
> Like mediawiki i.e. - when do you want to edit templates, you go to 
> Template:YourTemplate:
>

That makes sense as (as far as I know) MediaWiki does not present to
the user a tree of the data.


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Re: [Zim-wiki] Discuss wish: Page templates

2009-06-25 Thread Jaap Karssenberg
On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 11:21 AM, Dotan Cohen wrote:
> 2009/6/25 Jaap Karssenberg :
>> Then the next question is how to show these special namespaces in the
>> interface. Should they be part of the index tree or should they have
>> their own tree. If so, should both trees be visible in the side pane,
>> should they be switchable ? etc.
>>
>
> The templates most certainly should not be in the tree, no matter
> what! The trash could be in the tree, I suppose, but it should be
> distinguishable as a "special" branch. Maybe an icon, and having it at
> the bottom of the tree always.

For sure we need some kind of tree view for Trash, as it can contain a
sub-tree. With the proposal to have a separate side-pane view for this
it would have it's own tree, which may be more clearly separated from
the rest of the index.

> The templates would ideally be available when creating a new page. I
> do not understand Polish, so I do not understand what was in the
> screenshot, but a dropdown box with a choice of available templates
> would be intuitive. A template editor under the Tools menu would let
> the user create, delete, and edit templates. I do not think that
> templates should be available across Zim, but rather per notebook. For
> those who disagree, perhaps a checkbox for a Global option would help.
> All templates could be stored as a hidden Zim notebook, with some form
> of metadata to mention to which notebook they belong, or alternatively
> as global.

My first though was that templates would also require a tree, but I
realize this is not the case. The template list can be a flat list. In
that case a separate dialog to edit them is feasible. Still the editor
used would be the same as is used for "normal" pages. Would need some
progression on detaching an editor widget from the main application.

>> I can imagine to have a dropdown at the top of the side pane which
>> allows switching between "index" and "templates". Also "thrash" could
>> be in this dropdown as well as a view for "search". Alternatively this
>> could be done with vertical tabs along the side pane - but I feel that
>> might take up too much space.
>>
>
> I don't really like this idea. It is inconsistent with other
> applications' behaviour and sounds intrusive.

I see a lot of KDE application that either use a dropdown or vertical
tabs to switch views in a side pane. Maybe templates do not belong in
there, but search for sure is there for many applications, and thrash
also seems to fit nicely there.

All in all the full implementation is getting much more complex than
the original proposal from Vlastimil. Someone would need to invest
time to make it happen - preferably on the python code tree. At the
moment I'm struggling to get that project back on target - so zero
space in my planning at this moment.

Regards,

Jaap

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Re: [Zim-wiki] Discuss wish: Page templates

2009-06-25 Thread Jaap Karssenberg
On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 11:22 AM, Dotan Cohen wrote:
>> I think that is done already. At least the function for parsing page
>> names entered in one of the dialogs strips whitespace and other
>> characters that are not allowed.
>>
>
> It seems that whitespace is trimmed from the end, but not beginning of
> new page names. Shall I test further?

Try opening a page like "_foo" or " foo", in both cases you end up at "foo".

-- Jaap

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Re: [Zim-wiki] Discuss wish: Page templates

2009-06-25 Thread Vlastimil Ott
Dne Čt 25. června 2009 11:51:39 Dotan Cohen napsal(a):

> Yes, Zim is the editor. But so that they do not have to be shown in
> the tree, I thought that the Tools menu would be best. What other
> places are good?

I have many  roots in the tree, another one is no problem - :Zim with subtree.  
I think they could 
be in the tree.

> Yes, that is exactly what I thought. But where would you go to edit
> the templates, or add new ones? Tools -> Templates

I'll go to :Zim:Template in the tree.

Like mediawiki i.e. - when do you want to edit templates, you go to 
Template:YourTemplate:

http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Template:Thankyou

http://wiki.openoffice.cz/wiki/%C5%A0ablona:Infobox
(We use Infobox to create an ugly box on this wiki, "šablona" is "template" in 
Czech.)



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Re: [Zim-wiki] Discuss wish: Page templates

2009-06-25 Thread Dotan Cohen
2009/6/25 Vlastimil Ott :
> Dne Čt 25. června 2009 11:21:14 jste napsal(a):
>
>> The templates would ideally be available when creating a new page. I
>> do not understand Polish, so I do not understand what was in the
>> screenshot, but a dropdown box with a choice of available templates
>
> It was Czech, sorry  - an image "on the fly".
>
> Templates
>  |_ Person
>  |_ Report
>  |_ Mail
>  |_ another template
>
>
>> would be intuitive. A template editor under the Tools menu would let
>> the user create, delete, and edit templates. I do not think that
>
> Why? Zim is the editor. You can organize them like any other pages. That's 
> the beauty.
>

Yes, Zim is the editor. But so that they do not have to be shown in
the tree, I thought that the Tools menu would be best. What other
places are good?


>> It's easy to imagine when I don't know how to code!
>
> Yes. :) I don't want to complicate it. When I create a namespace Zim:Template 
> and some subnodes like
> Zim:Template:Person or Zim:Template:Report, I would like to see them in the 
> New page dialog. That's
> an inoffensive way, isnt' it?
>

Yes, that is exactly what I thought. But where would you go to edit
the templates, or add new ones? Tools -> Templates

> We can then think of
>
> Zim:Trash
> Zim:Help
> Zim:Whatever
>
> (Please send your emails to zim-wiki@lists.launchpad.net only, I'm 
> subscribed.)
>

No problem, I assume that Gmail was just respecting the mailing list headers.

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Re: [Zim-wiki] Discuss wish: Page templates

2009-06-25 Thread Vlastimil Ott
Dne St 24. června 2009 23:11:46 Bill Oldroyd napsal(a):
> Hi,
>
> What I do at the moment is a follows :
> .
> To add new member details :
>
> 1. Open index panel
> 2. Open Exp list
> 3. Menu over the Member Details entry  (This is the template record, in the
> tree called Exp: )
> 4. Select Copy
> 5. Change index name to :Exp:Persons name
> 6. Load the new record and edit accordingly
>
> You can have as many templates as you wish this way and it i smore flexible
> on what can be included in the record. For example I have two links in the
> template to a page for females and males. I delete the inappropriate one
> when entering the details for a member.
>
> Improvements on this would be to automatically open the copied record and
> be able to include the Back list within the page.
>
> Rather than having a swisher way to do templates, I would prefer some
> standard way of having "fields" in a record and being able to search them
> or list the values in a field and being able to select. For example a field
> being defined as :
>
> Field name : field contents
>
> Bill

Bill,

thanks, but that's too much effort for me, I would like to simplify it. :)

Fields would be great but IMHO this would exceed file format capabilities - the 
used wiki format is 
suitable for text information, not tabbed data.

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Re: [Zim-wiki] Discuss wish: Page templates

2009-06-25 Thread Vlastimil Ott
Dne Čt 25. června 2009 11:21:14 jste napsal(a): 

> The templates would ideally be available when creating a new page. I
> do not understand Polish, so I do not understand what was in the
> screenshot, but a dropdown box with a choice of available templates

It was Czech, sorry  - an image "on the fly".

Templates
 |_ Person
 |_ Report
 |_ Mail 
 |_ another template


> would be intuitive. A template editor under the Tools menu would let
> the user create, delete, and edit templates. I do not think that

Why? Zim is the editor. You can organize them like any other pages. That's the 
beauty.

> It's easy to imagine when I don't know how to code!

Yes. :) I don't want to complicate it. When I create a namespace Zim:Template 
and some subnodes like 
Zim:Template:Person or Zim:Template:Report, I would like to see them in the New 
page dialog. That's 
an inoffensive way, isnt' it?

We can then think of

Zim:Trash
Zim:Help
Zim:Whatever

(Please send your emails to zim-wiki@lists.launchpad.net only, I'm subscribed.)

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Re: [Zim-wiki] Discuss wish: Page templates

2009-06-25 Thread Dotan Cohen
> I think that is done already. At least the function for parsing page
> names entered in one of the dialogs strips whitespace and other
> characters that are not allowed.
>

It seems that whitespace is trimmed from the end, but not beginning of
new page names. Shall I test further?

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Re: [Zim-wiki] Discuss wish: Page templates

2009-06-25 Thread Dotan Cohen
2009/6/25 Jaap Karssenberg :
> On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 7:35 AM, Dotan Cohen wrote:
>>> The main design question for me is whether we should use a normal namespace
>>> for this, or there a need to create "special" namespaces? I run into the
>>> same question trying to implement a "move to garbage" feature - again the
>>> garbage bin can be a regular namespace, but it could also be a special
>>> namespace.
>>>
>>
>> Special namespace, definitely. Those are special purpose pages, and
>> should not be mixed in with the "regular" pages. Otherwise, the
>> "regular" pages become the special case.
>
> As described I think I know how to store these by using the "_" as a
> folder prefix for special namespaces.
>
> Then the next question is how to show these special namespaces in the
> interface. Should they be part of the index tree or should they have
> their own tree. If so, should both trees be visible in the side pane,
> should they be switchable ? etc.
>

The templates most certainly should not be in the tree, no matter
what! The trash could be in the tree, I suppose, but it should be
distinguishable as a "special" branch. Maybe an icon, and having it at
the bottom of the tree always.

The templates would ideally be available when creating a new page. I
do not understand Polish, so I do not understand what was in the
screenshot, but a dropdown box with a choice of available templates
would be intuitive. A template editor under the Tools menu would let
the user create, delete, and edit templates. I do not think that
templates should be available across Zim, but rather per notebook. For
those who disagree, perhaps a checkbox for a Global option would help.
All templates could be stored as a hidden Zim notebook, with some form
of metadata to mention to which notebook they belong, or alternatively
as global.

It's easy to imagine when I don't know how to code!


> I can imagine to have a dropdown at the top of the side pane which
> allows switching between "index" and "templates". Also "thrash" could
> be in this dropdown as well as a view for "search". Alternatively this
> could be done with vertical tabs along the side pane - but I feel that
> might take up too much space.
>

I don't really like this idea. It is inconsistent with other
applications' behaviour and sounds intrusive.


-- 
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Re: [Zim-wiki] Discuss wish: Page templates

2009-06-25 Thread Jaap Karssenberg
On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 7:35 AM, Dotan Cohen wrote:
>> The main design question for me is whether we should use a normal namespace
>> for this, or there a need to create "special" namespaces? I run into the
>> same question trying to implement a "move to garbage" feature - again the
>> garbage bin can be a regular namespace, but it could also be a special
>> namespace.
>>
>
> Special namespace, definitely. Those are special purpose pages, and
> should not be mixed in with the "regular" pages. Otherwise, the
> "regular" pages become the special case.

As described I think I know how to store these by using the "_" as a
folder prefix for special namespaces.

Then the next question is how to show these special namespaces in the
interface. Should they be part of the index tree or should they have
their own tree. If so, should both trees be visible in the side pane,
should they be switchable ? etc.

I can imagine to have a dropdown at the top of the side pane which
allows switching between "index" and "templates". Also "thrash" could
be in this dropdown as well as a view for "search". Alternatively this
could be done with vertical tabs along the side pane - but I feel that
might take up too much space.

Regards,

Jaap

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Re: [Zim-wiki] Discuss wish: Page templates

2009-06-25 Thread Jaap Karssenberg
On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 7:37 AM, Dotan Cohen wrote:
>> ( By having a special namespace for templates I mean that you would still be
>> able to use the namespace "templates" for any other purpose. The templates
>> would e.g. be in a folder "_templates" (normal page names can not start with
>> '_') and show up e.g. at the top of the index tree. )
>>
>
> In that case, then names entered by users must be trimmed for
> whitespace (The underscore replaces space in Zim names). I think that
> Python has a function for this. I often wind up with a page name with
> a redundant space before or after the text if the name is copy /
> pasted from another application.

I think that is done already. At least the function for parsing page
names entered in one of the dialogs strips whitespace and other
characters that are not allowed.

-- Jaap

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Re: [Zim-wiki] Discuss wish: Page templates

2009-06-24 Thread Dotan Cohen
> ( By having a special namespace for templates I mean that you would still be
> able to use the namespace "templates" for any other purpose. The templates
> would e.g. be in a folder "_templates" (normal page names can not start with
> '_') and show up e.g. at the top of the index tree. )
>

In that case, then names entered by users must be trimmed for
whitespace (The underscore replaces space in Zim names). I think that
Python has a function for this. I often wind up with a page name with
a redundant space before or after the text if the name is copy /
pasted from another application.

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Re: [Zim-wiki] Discuss wish: Page templates

2009-06-24 Thread Dotan Cohen
> The main design question for me is whether we should use a normal namespace
> for this, or there a need to create "special" namespaces? I run into the
> same question trying to implement a "move to garbage" feature - again the
> garbage bin can be a regular namespace, but it could also be a special
> namespace.
>

Special namespace, definitely. Those are special purpose pages, and
should not be mixed in with the "regular" pages. Otherwise, the
"regular" pages become the special case.

> ( By having a special namespace for templates I mean that you would still be
> able to use the namespace "templates" for any other purpose. The templates
> would e.g. be in a folder "_templates" (normal page names can not start with
> '_') and show up e.g. at the top of the index tree. )
>
> Implementing special namespaces would need some more thinking, but may be
> the Right Thing To Do because it keeps notes and "meta" information
> separate.
>

Yes!


-- 
Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il

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Re: [Zim-wiki] Discuss wish: Page templates

2009-06-24 Thread Jaap Karssenberg

Vlastimil Ott wrote:
trying to create an address book with Zim. I would like to create a person record with items like 
Name, Phone, Mail, Jabber and so on - you know. One thing would really help me a lot. A special 
namespace called templates.
I could create a template (with mentioned items) and select it later when pressing Ctrl-n. When 
creating i.e. address book, this seems to be a great thing. 

I could create such templates right now, but how to select them? I think that the one and only thing 
to be done is to implement the radiobutton/list and load the template in the New page dialog. See my 
mockup.
  


Implementation like that is relatively easy. Need to modify the "new 
page dialog". In the notebook there is already a hardcoded template for 
the calendar pages, so this can easily be extended. You can even have 
some template instructions like the ones used in the export templates.


The main design question for me is whether we should use a normal 
namespace for this, or there a need to create "special" namespaces? I 
run into the same question trying to implement a "move to garbage" 
feature - again the garbage bin can be a regular namespace, but it could 
also be a special namespace.


( By having a special namespace for templates I mean that you would 
still be able to use the namespace "templates" for any other purpose. 
The templates would e.g. be in a folder "_templates" (normal page names 
can not start with '_') and show up e.g. at the top of the index tree. )


Implementing special namespaces would need some more thinking, but may 
be the Right Thing To Do because it keeps notes and "meta" information 
separate.


Regards,

Jaap

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[Zim-wiki] Discuss wish: Page templates

2009-06-24 Thread Vlastimil Ott
Hello,

trying to create an address book with Zim. I would like to create a person 
record with items like 
Name, Phone, Mail, Jabber and so on - you know. One thing would really help me 
a lot. A special 
namespace called templates.
I could create a template (with mentioned items) and select it later when 
pressing Ctrl-n. When 
creating i.e. address book, this seems to be a great thing. 

I could create such templates right now, but how to select them? I think that 
the one and only thing 
to be done is to implement the radiobutton/list and load the template in the 
New page dialog. See my 
mockup.

What do you think about it? Is there an another (existing) way?

thanks

-- 

Vlastimil Ott
www.e-ott.info

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