RE: [ZION] working woman
The line must be decided individual case by individual case between the person and the bishop, I'm sure. Stacy. At 02:12 PM 09/19/2003 +, you wrote: With regard to applying prophetic counsel, where is the line between personal prerogative and inspiration, and personal apostasy? 2 Sam 6:6-7 And when they came to Nachon's threshingfloor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it. And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God. I note that in the original ark-steadying incident, it would certainly appear that the imperative of the moment was a more important consideration than any more formal rules. When do such considerations assume overriding priority? What about testing the Lord's word? Do we give an honest try to obeying prophetic counsel, then abandon that when we have decided that our circumstances warrant some other course of action? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] working woman
Not exactly. Sometimes it can be very uncomfortable to follow prophetic counsel and sometimes circumstantial change does not warrant a change. If there is any difficulty in this, as there has been with me and the fast, one counsels with the bishop. Stacy. At 01:35 PM 09/19/2003 +, you wrote: Sounds like we need not follow prophetic counsel as long as our circumstances make it inconvenient or uncomfortable for us. Am I getting this right? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] apostate working women {was}working woman
Val wrote:
-- Jim Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Sounds like we need not follow prophetic counsel as long as our
circumstances make it inconvenient or uncomfortable for us.
Am I getting this right?
___
WRONG!
This is an unfair, sweeping, judgemental condemnation of women who work.
I don't know if you are even married, or if she works, but you'd better
thank your lucky stars if she does not have too. That only means you
have been blessed and does not mean you have powers of judgement.
When abiding prophetic counsel, usually the living prophet trumps
older counsel. Otherwise, we'd still be practicing polygamy!
So it depends on which prophetic counsel you are referencing. If you
are referring to GBH's most recent comments on women who need to work,
then I am abiding it just fine. But, if you are referring to the
archaic counsel that women should not work, then call me an apostate.
I am sure the Lord doesn't have a problem with me supporting my family.
My husband is unable to because he is, well, dead! Sure, I could live
on Social Security, but that would not even cover my utilities, let
alone my house payment, taxes, cemetery, etc. Of course, me and the
kids do still need to eat, so groceries would have to go too. And I
cannot expect the church to support me and my kids--that's just
ludicrous.
If putting a leaky roof over my kids' heads is a convenience, then I
work because otherwise it would be inconvenient to live on the streets.
If feeding my kids and keeping them warm is comfortable, then I work
because otherwise we would be uncomfortable freezing in the winter or
baking in the summer.
I've usually respected your comments, Jim, but you really ticked me off
with this one!
val--from her JOB!
{watch out for the lightening strikes heading my way!}
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Let's all chill out and relax for a minute. It seems that working women
and husbands of working women always get defensive when this topic is
discussed. Let's not even begin to discuss why they get defensive.
Let's talk in generalities for a minute. I think that IDEALLY the
husband would work to provide for the family and the wife would be home
with the kids (which, in my opinion, is harder than working out of the
home). This is the IDEAL, but, as we all know, it is not always
possible. I think that as long as we are doing all we can to adhere to
this ideal, we will be blameless (only relating to this topic) before
God. It has nothing to do with white collar or blue collar workers.
How we do all we can, though, is where the topic goes from black and
white, to gray. There are women who truly need to work, and those who
think they need to work (or the husbands think the wife needs to
work), but perhaps don't have to (i.e. husband can get more education to
get a better paying job, can take on a second job, family can reduce
expenses). I don't think that any current (or relatively current)
prophet has negated the counsel of earlier prophets who have said that
women should not work outside of the home. Current prophets may have
clarified that the issue is gray, rather than black and white, but they
haven't removed the ideal. Look at the Family Proclatation. Pretty
current, huh? Pretty clear, too. By divine design, fathers are to
preside over their families in love and righteousness and ARE
RESPONSIBLE TO PROVIDE THE NECESSITIES OF LIFE and protection for their
families. Mothers are primarily respondible for the nurture of their
children. Kind of hard for the mother to do this when she is working
out of the home. Not impossible, but harder. The Proclamation goes on
to say that In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are
obligated to help one another as equal partners. I don't think this is
a negation of previous prophetic counsel. Husbands and wives and help
one another with their responsibilities by BETTER PERFORMING THEIR OWN
RESPONSIBILITIES, and not necessarily DOING each others
responsibilities. The Proclamation then states, Disability, death, or
other circumstances may necessitate individual adaption. Has the IDEAL
been changed? No.
.
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Re: [ZION] Language
I read it through as a challenge, and was able to read it fairly quickly, although not as quickly as I could have if the words were properly spelled. Why? I think it is because, for me at least, I pattern match words. When the words are misspelled, the pattern matching is more difficult. Context helps a lot, although your statement that you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm is a bit overstated, don't you think? It also upset my stomach as I read it! Jon - Original Message - From: Cousin Bill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Undisclosed-Recipient: Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 8:45 AM Subject: [ZION] Language Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer are at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do not raed ervey lteter by it slef but the wrod as a wlohe. yikes.. I didn't have problems reading this the first time through.. Anyone have any problems? Let Freedom Ring! Cousin Bill [EMAIL PROTECTED] Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations -- entangling alliances with none. --Thomas Jefferson // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] confiding in bishops
Counsel with the bishop is a standard answer. As a problem solving strategy, it usually doesn't work at all, at least in my experience. Bishops don't have effective answers for any but the most routine problems. Many of them are good at running LDS wards, but terrible as personal counselors. After ten years of crying on bishop's shoulders I have changed my thinking. It isn't fair for me to unburden my problems on them. I've tried harder to share my confidences with the Lord, and keep my personal problems to myself. I can imagine the numerous bishops I've dumped my sad story on over the last decade, cringing mentally every time they think about me. Oh, that poor miserable Brother Cobabe. I hope he doesn't come to me for sympathy again. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] working woman
Stacy Smith wrote: --- Not exactly. Sometimes it can be very uncomfortable to follow prophetic counsel and sometimes circumstantial change does not warrant a change. If there is any difficulty in this, as there has been with me and the fast, one counsels with the bishop. --- Not sure I understand. How can my bishop's directives override the words of the living prophets? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] apostate working women {was}working woman
Val wrote: --- So it depends on which prophetic counsel you are referencing. --- In my view, prophetic counsel is consistent in letter and spirit from one day to the next, through all ages of time. If I see conflicts in the pronouncements from one prophet to another, I must assume that there is a fault in my interpretation. I will not entertain the suggestion that counsel from President Benson is somehow trumped by statements from President Hinckley. One aspect of this issue is the manner of delivery of certain messages that differs significantly from one man to another. President Benson was blunt and aggressive in his directives. President Hinckley is often soft-spoken and indirect. He tends to be more sensitive about public perception. Notwithstanding, I saw no quotes indicating that President Hinckley has at any time rescinded the archaic counsel that mothers should not work. I have long pondered the postscript trailing the Proclamation on the Family. My suspicion is that many people will skip over the body of the message to this last bit of the message and focus all their attention on it. See, my circumstances are special, so I will just write my own Proclamation! I am not offering the least criticism to women who work out of necessity. Of course families without fathers have different circumstances and needs. The gospel is not a cruel taskmaster that burdens widows with unreasonable demands, is it? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] confiding in bishops
Jim Cobabe wrote: Counsel with the bishop is a standard answer. As a problem solving strategy, it usually doesn't work at all, at least in my experience. Bishops don't have effective answers for any but the most routine problems. Many of them are good at running LDS wards, but terrible as personal counselors. = Grampa Bill comments: As a former Bishop of the Savannah First Ward, I tend to agree. While I was given the keys to receive revelation on behalf of the ward, I was not given revelation on behalf of Brother Smith's family. Brother Smith himself solely had that right. Incidently, as I understand the order of the Church, neither the Stake President, the Area President, The Brethren, nor the Prophet hold such keys. They are given only to Brother Smith. Of course, Sister Smith had the right to revelation in living her own life. About all a bishop can do is look to see if the members are following generalized counsel as given in the scriptures and by the Brethren, and counsel them to move in that direction. If he goes further, it is at his own peril. Love y'all, Grampa Bill in Savannah // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
