Re: [ZION] God's love
Hmmm ... exactly what does it mean for God to love all sinners (i.e., everyone living today, at a minimum), but he does not love them unconditionally? Either He does not love all of them because of some condition, or He loves all of them. You can't have it both ways. Of course, it may be true that He does not love all of His children, but that is not correct either. I myself think that Jim, if I understood what he wrote, is correct. There is more than one kind of love, just as there is more than one kind of heaven. It would only make sense that there would be a higher kind of love for someone who did his best to live up to all of God's laws, and brought thousands of God's children unto repentance, than there would be for an anti-Christ. So, although the fact that God loves me is undoubtedly wonderful, it also mast be faint praise. Jon - Original Message - From: Stacy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 6:14 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] God's love Yes, he loves all sinners--just not unconditionally. Stacy. At 11:28 PM 05/28/2003 -0400, you wrote: I can attest that, based upon my own personal experiences and confirmations and outright manifestations of God, that God does indeed love me, a sinner. Jon - Original Message - From: Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 9:20 PM Subject: [ZION] God's love Some on the list have mentioned in the past that God does not love sinners, and tried to use recent statements on unconditional love to prove their point. I'd like to quote Elder Neal Maxwell, perhaps the current scriptural scholar among the apostles, and definitely the most eloquent and prolific writer amongst them. In his book These things shall give thee experience, he states the following concerning God's perfect love: God loves us all-- saint and sinner alike -- with a perfect and everlasting love. We have His love, if not His approval. It is our love for Him that remains to be developed. IOW, God loves all, but His approval is dependent upon our obedience and faithfulness. K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// / / /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.461 / Virus Database: 260 - Release Date: 03/10/2003 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] God's love
Paul Osborne wrote: Anyway, God loves me, and that's final. And I love you too, Paul. That makes two! Noj // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] God's love
On Mon, 2 Jun 2003 18:59:49 -0400 Jon Spencer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Paul Osborne wrote: Anyway, God loves me, and that's final. And I love you too, Paul. That makes two! Noj Thanks. It's always nice to hear that and especially my Zion friends. :-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] God's love
Right on Gary. That was a bull'seye. Paul O On Sat, 31 May 2003 19:45:24 -0500 Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I believe they are discussing different ideas, but arriving at the same conclusions overall. Elder Nelson is trying to refute the idea of God unconditionally accepting everything we do, simply because he loves us. He will not exalt us in our sins, and we are erring if we think so. Elder Maxwell is teaching that God loves us period, however in the same chapter he discusses that God is not always accepting of our actions, nor will he bless us in our wickedness. The difference is terminology and what each is trying to express. Kind of like a verse in the scriptures saying by grace ye are saved which is a true, albeit, incomplete statement. It is correct, but can be taken in different interpretations if not taken in its proper context. So it is with Elder Nelson's statement. He has an issue with calling God's love unconditional, because it sounds like God is totally accepting of all our actions, good or evil. But I'm sure he would not disagree with Elder Maxwell's term of perfect love, which allows God to love us all, but not necessarily be accepting of what we do or have become. K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. George: Gary, I accept Elder Maxwells comments with all my heart, as that is the way I have always beloved. However how does this reconcile with Elder Nelsons article in the Ensign where he appears to say something very different? The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
[ZION] God's love
I believe they are discussing different ideas, but arriving at the same conclusions overall. Elder Nelson is trying to refute the idea of God unconditionally accepting everything we do, simply because he loves us. He will not exalt us in our sins, and we are erring if we think so. Elder Maxwell is teaching that God loves us period, however in the same chapter he discusses that God is not always accepting of our actions, nor will he bless us in our wickedness. The difference is terminology and what each is trying to express. Kind of like a verse in the scriptures saying by grace ye are saved which is a true, albeit, incomplete statement. It is correct, but can be taken in different interpretations if not taken in its proper context. So it is with Elder Nelson's statement. He has an issue with calling God's love unconditional, because it sounds like God is totally accepting of all our actions, good or evil. But I'm sure he would not disagree with Elder Maxwell's term of perfect love, which allows God to love us all, but not necessarily be accepting of what we do or have become. K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. George: Gary, I accept Elder Maxwells comments with all my heart, as that is the way I have always beloved. However how does this reconcile with Elder Nelsons article in the Ensign where he appears to say something very different? George // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] God's love
Some on the list have mentioned in the past that God does not love sinners, and tried to use recent statements on unconditional love to prove their point. I'd like to quote Elder Neal Maxwell, perhaps the current scriptural scholar among the apostles, and definitely the most eloquent and prolific writer amongst them. In his book These things shall give thee experience, he states the following concerning God's perfect love: God loves us all-- saint and sinner alike -- with a perfect and everlasting love. We have His love, if not His approval. It is our love for Him that remains to be developed. IOW, God loves all, but His approval is dependent upon our obedience and faithfulness. K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith I agree with elder Maxwell's interpretation of God's love. I believe God will love me no matter how I act or what I do. I don't care if anyone says otherwise as I simply won't believe it. People are open to their own interpretations on spiritual matters and it doesn't make them right all the time just because they are an apostle. Gee-wiz, am I breaking the charter rule?? Anyway, God loves me, and that's final. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] God's love
Gary, I accept Elder Maxwells comments with all my heart, as that is the way I have always beloved. However how does this reconcile with Elder Nelsons article in the Ensign where he appears to say something very different? George - Original Message - From: Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 7:20 PM Subject: [ZION] God's love Some on the list have mentioned in the past that God does not love sinners, and tried to use recent statements on unconditional love to prove their point. I'd like to quote Elder Neal Maxwell, perhaps the current scriptural scholar among the apostles, and definitely the most eloquent and prolific writer amongst them. In his book These things shall give thee experience, he states the following concerning God's perfect love: God loves us all-- saint and sinner alike -- with a perfect and everlasting love. We have His love, if not His approval. It is our love for Him that remains to be developed. IOW, God loves all, but His approval is dependent upon our obedience and faithfulness. K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
[ZION] God's love
Some on the list have mentioned in the past that God does not love sinners, and tried to use recent statements on unconditional love to prove their point. I'd like to quote Elder Neal Maxwell, perhaps the current scriptural scholar among the apostles, and definitely the most eloquent and prolific writer amongst them. In his book These things shall give thee experience, he states the following concerning God's perfect love: God loves us all-- saint and sinner alike -- with a perfect and everlasting love. We have His love, if not His approval. It is our love for Him that remains to be developed. IOW, God loves all, but His approval is dependent upon our obedience and faithfulness. K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] God's love
I can attest that, based upon my own personal experiences and confirmations and outright manifestations of God, that God does indeed love me, a sinner. Jon - Original Message - From: Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 9:20 PM Subject: [ZION] God's love Some on the list have mentioned in the past that God does not love sinners, and tried to use recent statements on unconditional love to prove their point. I'd like to quote Elder Neal Maxwell, perhaps the current scriptural scholar among the apostles, and definitely the most eloquent and prolific writer amongst them. In his book These things shall give thee experience, he states the following concerning God's perfect love: God loves us all-- saint and sinner alike -- with a perfect and everlasting love. We have His love, if not His approval. It is our love for Him that remains to be developed. IOW, God loves all, but His approval is dependent upon our obedience and faithfulness. K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] God's love
Yes, he loves all sinners--just not unconditionally. Stacy. At 11:28 PM 05/28/2003 -0400, you wrote: I can attest that, based upon my own personal experiences and confirmations and outright manifestations of God, that God does indeed love me, a sinner. Jon - Original Message - From: Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 9:20 PM Subject: [ZION] God's love Some on the list have mentioned in the past that God does not love sinners, and tried to use recent statements on unconditional love to prove their point. I'd like to quote Elder Neal Maxwell, perhaps the current scriptural scholar among the apostles, and definitely the most eloquent and prolific writer amongst them. In his book These things shall give thee experience, he states the following concerning God's perfect love: God loves us all-- saint and sinner alike -- with a perfect and everlasting love. We have His love, if not His approval. It is our love for Him that remains to be developed. IOW, God loves all, but His approval is dependent upon our obedience and faithfulness. K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.461 / Virus Database: 260 - Release Date: 03/10/2003 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] God's love
I agree wholeheartedly. After all, he sends his sun to rise on the just and on the unjust and makes rain to fall too. Stacy. At 08:20 PM 05/28/2003 -0500, you wrote: Some on the list have mentioned in the past that God does not love sinners, and tried to use recent statements on unconditional love to prove their point. I'd like to quote Elder Neal Maxwell, perhaps the current scriptural scholar among the apostles, and definitely the most eloquent and prolific writer amongst them. In his book These things shall give thee experience, he states the following concerning God's perfect love: God loves us all-- saint and sinner alike -- with a perfect and everlasting love. We have His love, if not His approval. It is our love for Him that remains to be developed. IOW, God loves all, but His approval is dependent upon our obedience and faithfulness. K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.461 / Virus Database: 260 - Release Date: 03/10/2003 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
