Re: [ZION] The Descent of Man
John W. Redelfs" wrote: > If God is a man, and he existed before the world, and he created the world, > how could mankind have evolved on this planet? I mean, how did God become > a man? I don't get your question, John. Perhaps I missed some context. We know that there are millions of worlds on which man was created. We know that God once was as we are, not that he was on this world. So if God once was as we are, then what does that mean? Does it mean that he also had a Spirit Father? It seems so to me. Could he have taken the role of Christ in some other ? Our Christ said that he did nothing that he had not seen the Father do. What did that mean? All I know is that I am one grateful person that they both did what they did. Jon // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] The Descent of Man
Whatever. > -Original Message- > From: Stacy Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 11:50 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [ZION] The Descent of Man > > > Semantics, semantics. "Better" is probably not appropriate, just more > detailed and less detailed. > > Stacy. > > At 12:31 PM 11/13/2003 -0500, you wrote: > > >Actually, I erred. Moses is good, Abraham is better. > > > -- > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > // > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > // > /// > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] The Descent of Man
Semantics, semantics. "Better" is probably not appropriate, just more detailed and less detailed. Stacy. At 12:31 PM 11/13/2003 -0500, you wrote: Actually, I erred. Moses is good, Abraham is better. -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] The Descent of Man
Actually, I erred. Moses is good, Abraham is better. > -Original Message- > From: Stacy Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 10:27 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [ZION] The Descent of Man > > > I guess I often thought about the differences between the account of the > creation in the Book of Moses and the Book of Abraham. I think > the one in > Abraham is far more detailed. > > Stacy. > > At 09:44 AM 11/13/2003 -0500, you wrote: > > >Gary: > > > >Interesting speculation and observations. > > > >I have long believed that Book of Moses provides the most > comprehensive and > >broad scriptural presentation we have as to how God went about > creating the > >worlds. It provides a account that is quite instructive > generally. Moreover, > >it seems to suggest that when we know exactly how He did it, His > processes > >will be grounded in pure science not magic. > > > >RBS > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 7:41 AM > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Subject: [ZION] The Descent of Man > > > > > > > > > > > > John, > > > Now you are just going to have to accept the fact that some > > > things have not been revealed yet. We can only speculate on the > > > descent of man, whether there was an evolution involved or not. > > > My speculation is that the scriptures were written on a > > > personal/lineage history level. In the current FARMS magazine, > > > discussing DNA and the BoM, Sorensen explains what > > > personal/lineage histories of small groups are. > > > As far as they are concerned, the universe revolves around them, > > > and they view events in terms they understand. Amazingly, we do > > > the same today. 9/11 or Pearl Harbor only have value inasmuch as > > > we place value there personally. When our personal worlds are > > > falling apart, it seems the whole world is coming unglued. And > > > when we are doing great, we often forget the pains that still > > > occur throughout the rest of the world. > > > Given archaeology's estimate that there were only 1-200 million > > > people alive in Abraham's day throughout the world, we can > > > understand how unpopulated many places would be, especially > > > further back in Adam's day. We are possibly talking of just a few > > > million people, according to archaeology. It would be very easy > > > to believe him to be the only person upon the earth. > > > Or, it is very possible that the Lord allowed Adam to be first > > > man, and those before him were not counted as in the population > > > of mankind. We worry about thousands and millions of years, when > > > God works in multi-billion years and perhaps much longer periods > > > of mortal time. Was God the Father around prior to the creation > > > of this universe 15 billion years ago? Perhaps. Does it matter? > > > Not really. Did he create this earth 4 billion or 6 thousand > > > years ago? Doesn't matter, either way. He's free to do it any way > > > he likes. Is the Bible a perfect history? Possibly, but not > > > necessarily so. It is highly likely that scribes down the road > > > from Moses could have enhanced some of the story. Why else would > > > there be two creation stories in the Bible? Yes, I know some > > > claim one to be a spiritual creation and the other a physical - > > > but if so, which is which? If the second is the physical > > > creation, then there's no mention of creating Day and Night, > > > earth and water, etc. We just have a general creation, and then > > > man shows up in the Garden. > > > As for the creation stories in the Book of Moses and the > > > endowment, we still don't know whether we are learning about the > > > spiritual creation or the physical one. And there is Book of J > > > evidence of a third-type of creation story within the Bible that > > > falls in line with ancient Babylonian/Sumerian Creation stories > > > (including God having to fight and destroy Leviathan). So, which > > > one do we fully rely upon? > > > Traditionally, we take Genesis 1, and follow it. But it isn't > > > necessarily that easy once we look deeper into the scriptures. > > > > > > Do i believe Adam was a historical
RE: [ZION] The Descent of Man
I guess I often thought about the differences between the account of the creation in the Book of Moses and the Book of Abraham. I think the one in Abraham is far more detailed. Stacy. At 09:44 AM 11/13/2003 -0500, you wrote: Gary: Interesting speculation and observations. I have long believed that Book of Moses provides the most comprehensive and broad scriptural presentation we have as to how God went about creating the worlds. It provides a account that is quite instructive generally. Moreover, it seems to suggest that when we know exactly how He did it, His processes will be grounded in pure science not magic. RBS > -Original Message- > From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 7:41 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [ZION] The Descent of Man > > > > John, > Now you are just going to have to accept the fact that some > things have not been revealed yet. We can only speculate on the > descent of man, whether there was an evolution involved or not. > My speculation is that the scriptures were written on a > personal/lineage history level. In the current FARMS magazine, > discussing DNA and the BoM, Sorensen explains what > personal/lineage histories of small groups are. > As far as they are concerned, the universe revolves around them, > and they view events in terms they understand. Amazingly, we do > the same today. 9/11 or Pearl Harbor only have value inasmuch as > we place value there personally. When our personal worlds are > falling apart, it seems the whole world is coming unglued. And > when we are doing great, we often forget the pains that still > occur throughout the rest of the world. > Given archaeology's estimate that there were only 1-200 million > people alive in Abraham's day throughout the world, we can > understand how unpopulated many places would be, especially > further back in Adam's day. We are possibly talking of just a few > million people, according to archaeology. It would be very easy > to believe him to be the only person upon the earth. > Or, it is very possible that the Lord allowed Adam to be first > man, and those before him were not counted as in the population > of mankind. We worry about thousands and millions of years, when > God works in multi-billion years and perhaps much longer periods > of mortal time. Was God the Father around prior to the creation > of this universe 15 billion years ago? Perhaps. Does it matter? > Not really. Did he create this earth 4 billion or 6 thousand > years ago? Doesn't matter, either way. He's free to do it any way > he likes. Is the Bible a perfect history? Possibly, but not > necessarily so. It is highly likely that scribes down the road > from Moses could have enhanced some of the story. Why else would > there be two creation stories in the Bible? Yes, I know some > claim one to be a spiritual creation and the other a physical - > but if so, which is which? If the second is the physical > creation, then there's no mention of creating Day and Night, > earth and water, etc. We just have a general creation, and then > man shows up in the Garden. > As for the creation stories in the Book of Moses and the > endowment, we still don't know whether we are learning about the > spiritual creation or the physical one. And there is Book of J > evidence of a third-type of creation story within the Bible that > falls in line with ancient Babylonian/Sumerian Creation stories > (including God having to fight and destroy Leviathan). So, which > one do we fully rely upon? > Traditionally, we take Genesis 1, and follow it. But it isn't > necessarily that easy once we look deeper into the scriptures. > > Do i believe Adam was a historical person? Absolutely! I just > don't know if he was physically the father of all humans, or > symbolically the father of all humans. After all, did God create > him out of the dust of the earth as the scriptures tell us, or > was he transplanted here from another world, as suggested by > Brigham Young? More speculation! > Gary > > > K'aya K'ama > Gerald Smith > [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/ > Freedom Forever > > // > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > // > /// > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// ///
RE: [ZION] The Descent of Man
Gary: Interesting speculation and observations. I have long believed that Book of Moses provides the most comprehensive and broad scriptural presentation we have as to how God went about creating the worlds. It provides a account that is quite instructive generally. Moreover, it seems to suggest that when we know exactly how He did it, His processes will be grounded in pure science not magic. RBS > -Original Message- > From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 7:41 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [ZION] The Descent of Man > > > > John, > Now you are just going to have to accept the fact that some > things have not been revealed yet. We can only speculate on the > descent of man, whether there was an evolution involved or not. > My speculation is that the scriptures were written on a > personal/lineage history level. In the current FARMS magazine, > discussing DNA and the BoM, Sorensen explains what > personal/lineage histories of small groups are. > As far as they are concerned, the universe revolves around them, > and they view events in terms they understand. Amazingly, we do > the same today. 9/11 or Pearl Harbor only have value inasmuch as > we place value there personally. When our personal worlds are > falling apart, it seems the whole world is coming unglued. And > when we are doing great, we often forget the pains that still > occur throughout the rest of the world. > Given archaeology's estimate that there were only 1-200 million > people alive in Abraham's day throughout the world, we can > understand how unpopulated many places would be, especially > further back in Adam's day. We are possibly talking of just a few > million people, according to archaeology. It would be very easy > to believe him to be the only person upon the earth. > Or, it is very possible that the Lord allowed Adam to be first > man, and those before him were not counted as in the population > of mankind. We worry about thousands and millions of years, when > God works in multi-billion years and perhaps much longer periods > of mortal time. Was God the Father around prior to the creation > of this universe 15 billion years ago? Perhaps. Does it matter? > Not really. Did he create this earth 4 billion or 6 thousand > years ago? Doesn't matter, either way. He's free to do it any way > he likes. Is the Bible a perfect history? Possibly, but not > necessarily so. It is highly likely that scribes down the road > from Moses could have enhanced some of the story. Why else would > there be two creation stories in the Bible? Yes, I know some > claim one to be a spiritual creation and the other a physical - > but if so, which is which? If the second is the physical > creation, then there's no mention of creating Day and Night, > earth and water, etc. We just have a general creation, and then > man shows up in the Garden. > As for the creation stories in the Book of Moses and the > endowment, we still don't know whether we are learning about the > spiritual creation or the physical one. And there is Book of J > evidence of a third-type of creation story within the Bible that > falls in line with ancient Babylonian/Sumerian Creation stories > (including God having to fight and destroy Leviathan). So, which > one do we fully rely upon? > Traditionally, we take Genesis 1, and follow it. But it isn't > necessarily that easy once we look deeper into the scriptures. > > Do i believe Adam was a historical person? Absolutely! I just > don't know if he was physically the father of all humans, or > symbolically the father of all humans. After all, did God create > him out of the dust of the earth as the scriptures tell us, or > was he transplanted here from another world, as suggested by > Brigham Young? More speculation! > Gary > > > K'aya K'ama > Gerald Smith > [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/ > Freedom Forever > > // > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > // > /// > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] The Descent of Man
> -Original Message- > From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 3:33 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [ZION] The Descent of Man > > > If God is a man, and he existed before the world, and he created > the world, > how could mankind have evolved on this planet? I mean, how did > God become > a man? 1. If anyone knew the definitive answer to your first question, they would be worth billions. 2. If they knew the answer to the second question, they probably would be, ah, God. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] The Descent of Man
John, Now you are just going to have to accept the fact that some things have not been revealed yet. We can only speculate on the descent of man, whether there was an evolution involved or not. My speculation is that the scriptures were written on a personal/lineage history level. In the current FARMS magazine, discussing DNA and the BoM, Sorensen explains what personal/lineage histories of small groups are. As far as they are concerned, the universe revolves around them, and they view events in terms they understand. Amazingly, we do the same today. 9/11 or Pearl Harbor only have value inasmuch as we place value there personally. When our personal worlds are falling apart, it seems the whole world is coming unglued. And when we are doing great, we often forget the pains that still occur throughout the rest of the world. Given archaeology's estimate that there were only 1-200 million people alive in Abraham's day throughout the world, we can understand how unpopulated many places would be, especially further back in Adam's day. We are possibly talking of just a few million people, according to archaeology. It would be very easy to believe him to be the only person upon the earth. Or, it is very possible that the Lord allowed Adam to be first man, and those before him were not counted as in the population of mankind. We worry about thousands and millions of years, when God works in multi-billion years and perhaps much longer periods of mortal time. Was God the Father around prior to the creation of this universe 15 billion years ago? Perhaps. Does it matter? Not really. Did he create this earth 4 billion or 6 thousand years ago? Doesn't matter, either way. He's free to do it any way he likes. Is the Bible a perfect history? Possibly, but not necessarily so. It is highly likely that scribes down the road from Moses could have enhanced some of the story. Why else would there be two creation stories in the Bible? Yes, I know some claim one to be a spiritual creation and the other a physical - but if so, which is which? If the second is the physical creation, then there's no mention of creating Day and Night, earth and water, etc. We just have a general creation, and then man shows up in the Garden. As for the creation stories in the Book of Moses and the endowment, we still don't know whether we are learning about the spiritual creation or the physical one. And there is Book of J evidence of a third-type of creation story within the Bible that falls in line with ancient Babylonian/Sumerian Creation stories (including God having to fight and destroy Leviathan). So, which one do we fully rely upon? Traditionally, we take Genesis 1, and follow it. But it isn't necessarily that easy once we look deeper into the scriptures. Do i believe Adam was a historical person? Absolutely! I just don't know if he was physically the father of all humans, or symbolically the father of all humans. After all, did God create him out of the dust of the earth as the scriptures tell us, or was he transplanted here from another world, as suggested by Brigham Young? More speculation! Gary K'aya K'ama Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/ Freedom Forever // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] The Descent of Man
If God is a man, and he existed before the world, and he created the world, how could mankind have evolved on this planet? I mean, how did God become a man? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
