Re: [ZION] Natural Law
George Cobabe wrote: > Well, of course you are right, Marc, except that it is equally true that > there is no compulsion to worship anything at all. > > My, tongue in cheek, suggestion was that it would seem natural to worship > the highest entity. > I think I got that, and I know that there's a limit to how literally I'm supposed to take your comments, but considering anything other than a living being as an "entity" is straight out of neo-hellenism (aka "the philosophies of men.") > > I believe the highest entity is God the Father, equal to many other Gods, > but not subservient to Law. > > George > > - Original Message - > From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 11:01 AM > Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law > > But I don't agree that we're under any compulsion whatsoever to worship "the > highest entity or concept we can come up with." We're under "compulsion" > only to > worship God. > > George Cobabe wrote: > > > I do not see the connection between my quote and your comments. > > > > My earlier, not copied comments, suggested that we needed to worship the > > highest entity or concept we could come up with. It was a rhetorical > > question attempting to point out the fallacy of believing that there was > > anything more powerful than God, even law. > > > > George > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 8:33 PM > > Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law > > > > George Cobabe wrote: > > > > > You are absolutely right. However we are to worship God as the supreme > > > entity. How can we do that if He is subject to a higher force, and > > > therefore not the supreme entity. > > > > > > > A principle is not an entity. Let's revisit what Elder Joseph Fielding > Smith > > said: > > "This is an age when faith and the power of God should be greatly > increased, > > but > > to the contrary it is diminished and men boast in their own strength; yet > we > > see > > every day of our lives, the greatest of miracles. The flying of the > > airplane, the > > voice on the radio, the picture on the screen and television. There are > > thousands > > of miracles performed today, wonders that would astound our grandfathers > > could > > they suddenly see them. These miracles are as great as turning water into > > wine, > > raising the dead or anything else. A miracle is not, as many believe, the > > setting > > aside or overruling natural laws. Every miracle performed in Biblical days > > or now, > > is done on natural principles and in obedience to natural law. The healing > > of the > > sick, the raising of the dead, giving eyesight to the blind, whatever it > may > > be > > that is done by the power of God, is in accordance with natural law. > Because > > we do > > not understand how it is done, does not argue for the impossibility of it. > > Our > > Father in heaven knows many laws that are hidden from us. Man today has > > learned of > > many laws that our grandfathers did not understand. It is small business > for > > the > > critics to condemn the miracles in scriptures as though all the laws of > God > > have > > been revealed, and there could be no powers which they do not understand." > > (M:HO&D) > > > > > > > > That is my point. That there is no higher entity, not even law. > > > > > > I don't know what you mean concerning the Romans, but to say that there > is > > a > > > higher power, even law, than God is an inconsistency in the doctrine of > > > those that believe such a thing. IMNSHO > > > > > > George > > > > > > - Original Message - > > > From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 11:48 AM > > > Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law > > > > > > I'm afraid I don't see how it follows that we should worship the law. We > > > have been > > > told to worship God the Father. Period. Not even Jesus Christ -- God the > > > Father. > > > Worship is a person-to-person interaction as we understand it. It is the > > > Romans > > > who have to deal wi
Re: [ZION] Natural Law
Well, of course you are right, Marc, except that it is equally true that there is no compulsion to worship anything at all. My, tongue in cheek, suggestion was that it would seem natural to worship the highest entity. I believe the highest entity is God the Father, equal to many other Gods, but not subservient to Law. George - Original Message - From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 11:01 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law But I don't agree that we're under any compulsion whatsoever to worship "the highest entity or concept we can come up with." We're under "compulsion" only to worship God. George Cobabe wrote: > I do not see the connection between my quote and your comments. > > My earlier, not copied comments, suggested that we needed to worship the > highest entity or concept we could come up with. It was a rhetorical > question attempting to point out the fallacy of believing that there was > anything more powerful than God, even law. > > George > > - Original Message - > From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 8:33 PM > Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law > > George Cobabe wrote: > > > You are absolutely right. However we are to worship God as the supreme > > entity. How can we do that if He is subject to a higher force, and > > therefore not the supreme entity. > > > > A principle is not an entity. Let's revisit what Elder Joseph Fielding Smith > said: > "This is an age when faith and the power of God should be greatly increased, > but > to the contrary it is diminished and men boast in their own strength; yet we > see > every day of our lives, the greatest of miracles. The flying of the > airplane, the > voice on the radio, the picture on the screen and television. There are > thousands > of miracles performed today, wonders that would astound our grandfathers > could > they suddenly see them. These miracles are as great as turning water into > wine, > raising the dead or anything else. A miracle is not, as many believe, the > setting > aside or overruling natural laws. Every miracle performed in Biblical days > or now, > is done on natural principles and in obedience to natural law. The healing > of the > sick, the raising of the dead, giving eyesight to the blind, whatever it may > be > that is done by the power of God, is in accordance with natural law. Because > we do > not understand how it is done, does not argue for the impossibility of it. > Our > Father in heaven knows many laws that are hidden from us. Man today has > learned of > many laws that our grandfathers did not understand. It is small business for > the > critics to condemn the miracles in scriptures as though all the laws of God > have > been revealed, and there could be no powers which they do not understand." > (M:HO&D) > > > > > That is my point. That there is no higher entity, not even law. > > > > I don't know what you mean concerning the Romans, but to say that there is > a > > higher power, even law, than God is an inconsistency in the doctrine of > > those that believe such a thing. IMNSHO > > > > George > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 11:48 AM > > Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law > > > > I'm afraid I don't see how it follows that we should worship the law. We > > have been > > told to worship God the Father. Period. Not even Jesus Christ -- God the > > Father. > > Worship is a person-to-person interaction as we understand it. It is the > > Romans > > who have to deal with the inherent inconsistencies in their theology. > > > > George Cobabe wrote: > > > > > Furthermore, if Natural Law is the great constant and above God, then it > > is > > > the law we should worship. If we choose to do so it is then we become > > more > > > like Protestants and Catholics, in that our object of worship becomes > > > something without form, no body, parts, or passions. The Law can fill > the > > > universe and yet dwell in our hearts. We become more like Jews who know > > > little, or nothing, of God, yet can produce volumes and volumes on the > > > smallest point of law and behavior. > > > > > > Those who argue there is a Law about our God need to examine what that > > > belief tel
Re: [ZION] Natural Law
But I don't agree that we're under any compulsion whatsoever to worship "the highest entity or concept we can come up with." We're under "compulsion" only to worship God. George Cobabe wrote: > I do not see the connection between my quote and your comments. > > My earlier, not copied comments, suggested that we needed to worship the > highest entity or concept we could come up with. It was a rhetorical > question attempting to point out the fallacy of believing that there was > anything more powerful than God, even law. > > George > > - Original Message - > From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 8:33 PM > Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law > > George Cobabe wrote: > > > You are absolutely right. However we are to worship God as the supreme > > entity. How can we do that if He is subject to a higher force, and > > therefore not the supreme entity. > > > > A principle is not an entity. Let's revisit what Elder Joseph Fielding Smith > said: > "This is an age when faith and the power of God should be greatly increased, > but > to the contrary it is diminished and men boast in their own strength; yet we > see > every day of our lives, the greatest of miracles. The flying of the > airplane, the > voice on the radio, the picture on the screen and television. There are > thousands > of miracles performed today, wonders that would astound our grandfathers > could > they suddenly see them. These miracles are as great as turning water into > wine, > raising the dead or anything else. A miracle is not, as many believe, the > setting > aside or overruling natural laws. Every miracle performed in Biblical days > or now, > is done on natural principles and in obedience to natural law. The healing > of the > sick, the raising of the dead, giving eyesight to the blind, whatever it may > be > that is done by the power of God, is in accordance with natural law. Because > we do > not understand how it is done, does not argue for the impossibility of it. > Our > Father in heaven knows many laws that are hidden from us. Man today has > learned of > many laws that our grandfathers did not understand. It is small business for > the > critics to condemn the miracles in scriptures as though all the laws of God > have > been revealed, and there could be no powers which they do not understand." > (M:HO&D) > > > > > That is my point. That there is no higher entity, not even law. > > > > I don't know what you mean concerning the Romans, but to say that there is > a > > higher power, even law, than God is an inconsistency in the doctrine of > > those that believe such a thing. IMNSHO > > > > George > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 11:48 AM > > Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law > > > > I'm afraid I don't see how it follows that we should worship the law. We > > have been > > told to worship God the Father. Period. Not even Jesus Christ -- God the > > Father. > > Worship is a person-to-person interaction as we understand it. It is the > > Romans > > who have to deal with the inherent inconsistencies in their theology. > > > > George Cobabe wrote: > > > > > Furthermore, if Natural Law is the great constant and above God, then it > > is > > > the law we should worship. If we choose to do so it is then we become > > more > > > like Protestants and Catholics, in that our object of worship becomes > > > something without form, no body, parts, or passions. The Law can fill > the > > > universe and yet dwell in our hearts. We become more like Jews who know > > > little, or nothing, of God, yet can produce volumes and volumes on the > > > smallest point of law and behavior. > > > > > > Those who argue there is a Law about our God need to examine what that > > > belief tells them of their priorities and what they truly worship. > > > > > > I know that they can produce all kinds of smart people who agree with > > them, > > > so I recognize that the answer may not be as simple as I suggest. > Forgive > > > me of my indiscretion if my words give offense. > > > > > > George > > > > > > - Original Message - > > > From: "Jim Cobabe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >
Re: [ZION] Natural Law
I do not see the connection between my quote and your comments. My earlier, not copied comments, suggested that we needed to worship the highest entity or concept we could come up with. It was a rhetorical question attempting to point out the fallacy of believing that there was anything more powerful than God, even law. George - Original Message - From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 8:33 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law George Cobabe wrote: > You are absolutely right. However we are to worship God as the supreme > entity. How can we do that if He is subject to a higher force, and > therefore not the supreme entity. > A principle is not an entity. Let's revisit what Elder Joseph Fielding Smith said: "This is an age when faith and the power of God should be greatly increased, but to the contrary it is diminished and men boast in their own strength; yet we see every day of our lives, the greatest of miracles. The flying of the airplane, the voice on the radio, the picture on the screen and television. There are thousands of miracles performed today, wonders that would astound our grandfathers could they suddenly see them. These miracles are as great as turning water into wine, raising the dead or anything else. A miracle is not, as many believe, the setting aside or overruling natural laws. Every miracle performed in Biblical days or now, is done on natural principles and in obedience to natural law. The healing of the sick, the raising of the dead, giving eyesight to the blind, whatever it may be that is done by the power of God, is in accordance with natural law. Because we do not understand how it is done, does not argue for the impossibility of it. Our Father in heaven knows many laws that are hidden from us. Man today has learned of many laws that our grandfathers did not understand. It is small business for the critics to condemn the miracles in scriptures as though all the laws of God have been revealed, and there could be no powers which they do not understand." (M:HO&D) > > That is my point. That there is no higher entity, not even law. > > I don't know what you mean concerning the Romans, but to say that there is a > higher power, even law, than God is an inconsistency in the doctrine of > those that believe such a thing. IMNSHO > > George > > - Original Message - > From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 11:48 AM > Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law > > I'm afraid I don't see how it follows that we should worship the law. We > have been > told to worship God the Father. Period. Not even Jesus Christ -- God the > Father. > Worship is a person-to-person interaction as we understand it. It is the > Romans > who have to deal with the inherent inconsistencies in their theology. > > George Cobabe wrote: > > > Furthermore, if Natural Law is the great constant and above God, then it > is > > the law we should worship. If we choose to do so it is then we become > more > > like Protestants and Catholics, in that our object of worship becomes > > something without form, no body, parts, or passions. The Law can fill the > > universe and yet dwell in our hearts. We become more like Jews who know > > little, or nothing, of God, yet can produce volumes and volumes on the > > smallest point of law and behavior. > > > > Those who argue there is a Law about our God need to examine what that > > belief tells them of their priorities and what they truly worship. > > > > I know that they can produce all kinds of smart people who agree with > them, > > so I recognize that the answer may not be as simple as I suggest. Forgive > > me of my indiscretion if my words give offense. > > > > George > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Jim Cobabe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 11:31 PM > > Subject: RE: [ZION] Natural Law > > > > > > > > Another interesting reference to this question-- > > > > > > God is the author of law, not its creation or its servant. All light and > > > all law emanate from him (see D&C 88:13). Indeed, "all kingdoms have a > > > law given; and there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the > > > which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no > > > space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto every kingdom is > > > given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and > > > conditions" (D&C
Re: [ZION] Natural Law
Stephen Beecroft wrote: >He's also the teacher who effectively pointed out that >we do indeed believe in salvation by grace, despite what many Latter-day >Saints mistakenly believe and even teach. "Many" LDSers? "Many?" Maybe in your neck of the woods, but not down here is the Solid South. Who doesn't hear "we are saved by grace after all we can do" many times a year? Jon // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Natural Law
At 00:50 12/20/2002 -0900, the venerable BLT wrote: There is a law which God must obey, one that is above him. Call it "natural law" or anything else you like. Because mankind is at an infantile stage of development compared with God, we probably don't even know what the laws are by which God came to be God. But we may be sure that they exist. Well said, John. Exactly the way I feel about it. I have all I can do to keep up with the puny laws we have. Like J Golden, I may not walk the straight and narrow, but I try to cross it as often as I can. Till the there is no end to priesthood, there is no end to love // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Natural Law
George Cobabe wrote: > You are absolutely right. However we are to worship God as the supreme > entity. How can we do that if He is subject to a higher force, and > therefore not the supreme entity. > A principle is not an entity. Let's revisit what Elder Joseph Fielding Smith said: "This is an age when faith and the power of God should be greatly increased, but to the contrary it is diminished and men boast in their own strength; yet we see every day of our lives, the greatest of miracles. The flying of the airplane, the voice on the radio, the picture on the screen and television. There are thousands of miracles performed today, wonders that would astound our grandfathers could they suddenly see them. These miracles are as great as turning water into wine, raising the dead or anything else. A miracle is not, as many believe, the setting aside or overruling natural laws. Every miracle performed in Biblical days or now, is done on natural principles and in obedience to natural law. The healing of the sick, the raising of the dead, giving eyesight to the blind, whatever it may be that is done by the power of God, is in accordance with natural law. Because we do not understand how it is done, does not argue for the impossibility of it. Our Father in heaven knows many laws that are hidden from us. Man today has learned of many laws that our grandfathers did not understand. It is small business for the critics to condemn the miracles in scriptures as though all the laws of God have been revealed, and there could be no powers which they do not understand." (M:HO&D) > > That is my point. That there is no higher entity, not even law. > > I don't know what you mean concerning the Romans, but to say that there is a > higher power, even law, than God is an inconsistency in the doctrine of > those that believe such a thing. IMNSHO > > George > > - Original Message - > From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 11:48 AM > Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law > > I'm afraid I don't see how it follows that we should worship the law. We > have been > told to worship God the Father. Period. Not even Jesus Christ -- God the > Father. > Worship is a person-to-person interaction as we understand it. It is the > Romans > who have to deal with the inherent inconsistencies in their theology. > > George Cobabe wrote: > > > Furthermore, if Natural Law is the great constant and above God, then it > is > > the law we should worship. If we choose to do so it is then we become > more > > like Protestants and Catholics, in that our object of worship becomes > > something without form, no body, parts, or passions. The Law can fill the > > universe and yet dwell in our hearts. We become more like Jews who know > > little, or nothing, of God, yet can produce volumes and volumes on the > > smallest point of law and behavior. > > > > Those who argue there is a Law about our God need to examine what that > > belief tells them of their priorities and what they truly worship. > > > > I know that they can produce all kinds of smart people who agree with > them, > > so I recognize that the answer may not be as simple as I suggest. Forgive > > me of my indiscretion if my words give offense. > > > > George > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Jim Cobabe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 11:31 PM > > Subject: RE: [ZION] Natural Law > > > > > > > > Another interesting reference to this question-- > > > > > > God is the author of law, not its creation or its servant. All light and > > > all law emanate from him (see D&C 88:13). Indeed, "all kingdoms have a > > > law given; and there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the > > > which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no > > > space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto every kingdom is > > > given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and > > > conditions" (D&C 88:36-38). Of God the revelation states, "He > > > comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things > > > are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and > > > is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are > > > by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever" (D&C 88:41). > > > > > > Joseph Smith asked, "Can we suppose that He [God] has a kingdom without > > > laws
Re: [ZION] Natural Law
You are absolutely right. However we are to worship God as the supreme entity. How can we do that if He is subject to a higher force, and therefore not the supreme entity. That is my point. That there is no higher entity, not even law. I don't know what you mean concerning the Romans, but to say that there is a higher power, even law, than God is an inconsistency in the doctrine of those that believe such a thing. IMNSHO George - Original Message - From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 11:48 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law I'm afraid I don't see how it follows that we should worship the law. We have been told to worship God the Father. Period. Not even Jesus Christ -- God the Father. Worship is a person-to-person interaction as we understand it. It is the Romans who have to deal with the inherent inconsistencies in their theology. George Cobabe wrote: > Furthermore, if Natural Law is the great constant and above God, then it is > the law we should worship. If we choose to do so it is then we become more > like Protestants and Catholics, in that our object of worship becomes > something without form, no body, parts, or passions. The Law can fill the > universe and yet dwell in our hearts. We become more like Jews who know > little, or nothing, of God, yet can produce volumes and volumes on the > smallest point of law and behavior. > > Those who argue there is a Law about our God need to examine what that > belief tells them of their priorities and what they truly worship. > > I know that they can produce all kinds of smart people who agree with them, > so I recognize that the answer may not be as simple as I suggest. Forgive > me of my indiscretion if my words give offense. > > George > > - Original Message - > From: "Jim Cobabe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 11:31 PM > Subject: RE: [ZION] Natural Law > > > > > Another interesting reference to this question-- > > > > God is the author of law, not its creation or its servant. All light and > > all law emanate from him (see D&C 88:13). Indeed, "all kingdoms have a > > law given; and there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the > > which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no > > space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto every kingdom is > > given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and > > conditions" (D&C 88:36-38). Of God the revelation states, "He > > comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things > > are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and > > is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are > > by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever" (D&C 88:41). > > > > Joseph Smith asked, "Can we suppose that He [God] has a kingdom without > > laws? Or do we believe that it is composed of an innumerable company of > > beings who are entirely beyond all law? Consequently have need of > > nothing to govern or regulate them? Would not such ideas be a reproach > > to our Great Parent, and at variance with His glorious intelligence? > > Would it not be asserting that man had found out a secret beyond Deity? > > That he had learned that it was good to have laws, while God after > > existing from eternity and having power to create man, had not found out > > that it was proper to have laws for His government?" (Teachings of the > > Prophet Joseph Smith, 55). > > > > "God," Joseph Smith taught, "has made certain decrees which are fixed > > and immovable; for instance, God set the sun, the moon, and the stars in > > the heavens, and gave them their laws, conditions and bounds, which they > > cannot pass, except by His commandments; they all move in perfect > > harmony in their sphere and order, and are as lights, wonders and signs > > unto us. The sea also has its bounds which it cannot pass. God has set > > many signs on the earth, as well as in the heavens; for instance, the > > oak of the forest, the fruit of the tree, the herb of the field, all > > bear a sign that seed hath been planted there; for it is a decree of the > > Lord that every tree, plant, and herb bearing seed should bring forth of > > its kind, and cannot come forth after any other law or principle" > > (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 197-98). > > > > God is not a scientist. He does not harness law and then use it to bless > > and govern his creations. God is the au
Re: [ZION] Natural Law
George Cobabe favored us with: Furthermore, if Natural Law is the great constant and above God, then it is the law we should worship. Natural Law is a concept, something intangible but real. God is a person. It is very hard to worship intangible concepts. The traditional Christian world has been trying to worship an intangible God for nearly 2 millennia, and it has worked out very well for them. There is a law which God must obey, one that is above him. Call it "natural law" or anything else you like. Because mankind is at an infantile stage of development compared with God, we probably don't even know what the laws are by which God came to be God. But we may be sure that they exist. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I guess is why several of us died of tuberculosis." --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Natural Law
I'm afraid I don't see how it follows that we should worship the law. We have been told to worship God the Father. Period. Not even Jesus Christ -- God the Father. Worship is a person-to-person interaction as we understand it. It is the Romans who have to deal with the inherent inconsistencies in their theology. George Cobabe wrote: > Furthermore, if Natural Law is the great constant and above God, then it is > the law we should worship. If we choose to do so it is then we become more > like Protestants and Catholics, in that our object of worship becomes > something without form, no body, parts, or passions. The Law can fill the > universe and yet dwell in our hearts. We become more like Jews who know > little, or nothing, of God, yet can produce volumes and volumes on the > smallest point of law and behavior. > > Those who argue there is a Law about our God need to examine what that > belief tells them of their priorities and what they truly worship. > > I know that they can produce all kinds of smart people who agree with them, > so I recognize that the answer may not be as simple as I suggest. Forgive > me of my indiscretion if my words give offense. > > George > > - Original Message - > From: "Jim Cobabe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 11:31 PM > Subject: RE: [ZION] Natural Law > > > > > Another interesting reference to this question-- > > > > God is the author of law, not its creation or its servant. All light and > > all law emanate from him (see D&C 88:13). Indeed, "all kingdoms have a > > law given; and there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the > > which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no > > space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto every kingdom is > > given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and > > conditions" (D&C 88:36-38). Of God the revelation states, "He > > comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things > > are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and > > is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are > > by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever" (D&C 88:41). > > > > Joseph Smith asked, "Can we suppose that He [God] has a kingdom without > > laws? Or do we believe that it is composed of an innumerable company of > > beings who are entirely beyond all law? Consequently have need of > > nothing to govern or regulate them? Would not such ideas be a reproach > > to our Great Parent, and at variance with His glorious intelligence? > > Would it not be asserting that man had found out a secret beyond Deity? > > That he had learned that it was good to have laws, while God after > > existing from eternity and having power to create man, had not found out > > that it was proper to have laws for His government?" (Teachings of the > > Prophet Joseph Smith, 55). > > > > "God," Joseph Smith taught, "has made certain decrees which are fixed > > and immovable; for instance, God set the sun, the moon, and the stars in > > the heavens, and gave them their laws, conditions and bounds, which they > > cannot pass, except by His commandments; they all move in perfect > > harmony in their sphere and order, and are as lights, wonders and signs > > unto us. The sea also has its bounds which it cannot pass. God has set > > many signs on the earth, as well as in the heavens; for instance, the > > oak of the forest, the fruit of the tree, the herb of the field, all > > bear a sign that seed hath been planted there; for it is a decree of the > > Lord that every tree, plant, and herb bearing seed should bring forth of > > its kind, and cannot come forth after any other law or principle" > > (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 197-98). > > > > God is not a scientist. He does not harness law and then use it to bless > > and govern his creations. God is the author and source of all law. Were > > this not the case, the powers of evil could seek his overthrow through > > the discovery of unknown laws. We would live in endless peril. Our > > prayers would then be for God, not to him, and scientists rather than > > prophets would hold the keys of salvation. > > > > True it is that God was once a man obtaining his exalted status by > > obedience to the laws of his own eternal Father, but upon obtaining that > > station he becomes the source of light and law to all that he creates. > > Following t
Re: [ZION] Natural Law
Opps, I meant to say: "Those who argue there is a Law *above* our God need ..." George - Original Message - From: "George Cobabe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 6:38 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law > Furthermore, if Natural Law is the great constant and above God, then it is > the law we should worship. If we choose to do so it is then we become more > like Protestants and Catholics, in that our object of worship becomes > something without form, no body, parts, or passions. The Law can fill the > universe and yet dwell in our hearts. We become more like Jews who know > little, or nothing, of God, yet can produce volumes and volumes on the > smallest point of law and behavior. > > Those who argue there is a Law about our God need to examine what that > belief tells them of their priorities and what they truly worship. > > I know that they can produce all kinds of smart people who agree with them, > so I recognize that the answer may not be as simple as I suggest. Forgive > me of my indiscretion if my words give offense. > > George > > - Original Message - > From: "Jim Cobabe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 11:31 PM > Subject: RE: [ZION] Natural Law > > > > > > Another interesting reference to this question-- > > > > God is the author of law, not its creation or its servant. All light and > > all law emanate from him (see D&C 88:13). Indeed, "all kingdoms have a > > law given; and there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the > > which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no > > space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto every kingdom is > > given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and > > conditions" (D&C 88:36-38). Of God the revelation states, "He > > comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things > > are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and > > is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are > > by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever" (D&C 88:41). > > > > Joseph Smith asked, "Can we suppose that He [God] has a kingdom without > > laws? Or do we believe that it is composed of an innumerable company of > > beings who are entirely beyond all law? Consequently have need of > > nothing to govern or regulate them? Would not such ideas be a reproach > > to our Great Parent, and at variance with His glorious intelligence? > > Would it not be asserting that man had found out a secret beyond Deity? > > That he had learned that it was good to have laws, while God after > > existing from eternity and having power to create man, had not found out > > that it was proper to have laws for His government?" (Teachings of the > > Prophet Joseph Smith, 55). > > > > "God," Joseph Smith taught, "has made certain decrees which are fixed > > and immovable; for instance, God set the sun, the moon, and the stars in > > the heavens, and gave them their laws, conditions and bounds, which they > > cannot pass, except by His commandments; they all move in perfect > > harmony in their sphere and order, and are as lights, wonders and signs > > unto us. The sea also has its bounds which it cannot pass. God has set > > many signs on the earth, as well as in the heavens; for instance, the > > oak of the forest, the fruit of the tree, the herb of the field, all > > bear a sign that seed hath been planted there; for it is a decree of the > > Lord that every tree, plant, and herb bearing seed should bring forth of > > its kind, and cannot come forth after any other law or principle" > > (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 197-98). > > > > God is not a scientist. He does not harness law and then use it to bless > > and govern his creations. God is the author and source of all law. Were > > this not the case, the powers of evil could seek his overthrow through > > the discovery of unknown laws. We would live in endless peril. Our > > prayers would then be for God, not to him, and scientists rather than > > prophets would hold the keys of salvation. > > > > True it is that God was once a man obtaining his exalted status by > > obedience to the laws of his own eternal Father, but upon obtaining that > > station he becomes the source of light and law to all that he creat
Re: [ZION] Natural Law
Furthermore, if Natural Law is the great constant and above God, then it is the law we should worship. If we choose to do so it is then we become more like Protestants and Catholics, in that our object of worship becomes something without form, no body, parts, or passions. The Law can fill the universe and yet dwell in our hearts. We become more like Jews who know little, or nothing, of God, yet can produce volumes and volumes on the smallest point of law and behavior. Those who argue there is a Law about our God need to examine what that belief tells them of their priorities and what they truly worship. I know that they can produce all kinds of smart people who agree with them, so I recognize that the answer may not be as simple as I suggest. Forgive me of my indiscretion if my words give offense. George - Original Message - From: "Jim Cobabe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 11:31 PM Subject: RE: [ZION] Natural Law > > Another interesting reference to this question-- > > God is the author of law, not its creation or its servant. All light and > all law emanate from him (see D&C 88:13). Indeed, "all kingdoms have a > law given; and there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the > which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no > space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto every kingdom is > given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and > conditions" (D&C 88:36-38). Of God the revelation states, "He > comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things > are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and > is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are > by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever" (D&C 88:41). > > Joseph Smith asked, "Can we suppose that He [God] has a kingdom without > laws? Or do we believe that it is composed of an innumerable company of > beings who are entirely beyond all law? Consequently have need of > nothing to govern or regulate them? Would not such ideas be a reproach > to our Great Parent, and at variance with His glorious intelligence? > Would it not be asserting that man had found out a secret beyond Deity? > That he had learned that it was good to have laws, while God after > existing from eternity and having power to create man, had not found out > that it was proper to have laws for His government?" (Teachings of the > Prophet Joseph Smith, 55). > > "God," Joseph Smith taught, "has made certain decrees which are fixed > and immovable; for instance, God set the sun, the moon, and the stars in > the heavens, and gave them their laws, conditions and bounds, which they > cannot pass, except by His commandments; they all move in perfect > harmony in their sphere and order, and are as lights, wonders and signs > unto us. The sea also has its bounds which it cannot pass. God has set > many signs on the earth, as well as in the heavens; for instance, the > oak of the forest, the fruit of the tree, the herb of the field, all > bear a sign that seed hath been planted there; for it is a decree of the > Lord that every tree, plant, and herb bearing seed should bring forth of > its kind, and cannot come forth after any other law or principle" > (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 197-98). > > God is not a scientist. He does not harness law and then use it to bless > and govern his creations. God is the author and source of all law. Were > this not the case, the powers of evil could seek his overthrow through > the discovery of unknown laws. We would live in endless peril. Our > prayers would then be for God, not to him, and scientists rather than > prophets would hold the keys of salvation. > > True it is that God was once a man obtaining his exalted status by > obedience to the laws of his own eternal Father, but upon obtaining that > station he becomes the source of light and law to all that he creates. > Following this same pattern, the resurrected Christ said to the > Nephites, "I am the law" (3 Ne. 15:9). > > > (Joseph Fielding McConkie, Answers: Straightforward Answers to Tough > Gospel Questions [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1998], 167.) > > --- > Mij Ebaboc > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter
RE: [ZION] Natural Law
Stephen Beecroft favored us with: He's also the teacher who effectively pointed out that we do indeed believe in salvation by grace, despite what many Latter-day Saints mistakenly believe and even teach. Of course we believe in salvation by grace. The Protestant heresy that we repudiate is salvation by grace ALONE without works. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Natural Law
Another interesting reference to this question-- God is the author of law, not its creation or its servant. All light and all law emanate from him (see D&C 88:13). Indeed, "all kingdoms have a law given; and there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions" (D&C 88:36-38). Of God the revelation states, "He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever" (D&C 88:41). Joseph Smith asked, "Can we suppose that He [God] has a kingdom without laws? Or do we believe that it is composed of an innumerable company of beings who are entirely beyond all law? Consequently have need of nothing to govern or regulate them? Would not such ideas be a reproach to our Great Parent, and at variance with His glorious intelligence? Would it not be asserting that man had found out a secret beyond Deity? That he had learned that it was good to have laws, while God after existing from eternity and having power to create man, had not found out that it was proper to have laws for His government?" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 55). "God," Joseph Smith taught, "has made certain decrees which are fixed and immovable; for instance, God set the sun, the moon, and the stars in the heavens, and gave them their laws, conditions and bounds, which they cannot pass, except by His commandments; they all move in perfect harmony in their sphere and order, and are as lights, wonders and signs unto us. The sea also has its bounds which it cannot pass. God has set many signs on the earth, as well as in the heavens; for instance, the oak of the forest, the fruit of the tree, the herb of the field, all bear a sign that seed hath been planted there; for it is a decree of the Lord that every tree, plant, and herb bearing seed should bring forth of its kind, and cannot come forth after any other law or principle" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 197-98). God is not a scientist. He does not harness law and then use it to bless and govern his creations. God is the author and source of all law. Were this not the case, the powers of evil could seek his overthrow through the discovery of unknown laws. We would live in endless peril. Our prayers would then be for God, not to him, and scientists rather than prophets would hold the keys of salvation. True it is that God was once a man obtaining his exalted status by obedience to the laws of his own eternal Father, but upon obtaining that station he becomes the source of light and law to all that he creates. Following this same pattern, the resurrected Christ said to the Nephites, "I am the law" (3 Ne. 15:9). (Joseph Fielding McConkie, Answers: Straightforward Answers to Tough Gospel Questions [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1998], 167.) --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Natural Law
They are all duly queued, waiting merely to be cued... Stephen Beecroft wrote: > Ah, well. Cue the violins. At least I know how to spell > carob-beans.) > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Natural Law
Stephen - apparently you are not the only one who admires him as I found an inordinate amount of references to his publication on the subject of natural law. He was quoted by all sorts of people. Thanks for reading the long post I sent. George - Original Message - From: "Stephen Beecroft" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 9:39 PM Subject: RE: [ZION] Natural Law > -George- > > Much of what is quoted by Sis Black is from a paper by LaMar > > Garrard, "God, Natural Law, and the Doctrine and Covenants" > > Brother Garrard may well have been my wife's and my favorite teacher at > BYU, even though we only ever had him for one class. When he came in the > first day, I thought he was the goofiest-looking teacher I had ever > seen. By the end of the term, I thought his face reflected the > countenance of Jesus Christ. In fact, it was from him that I most > forcefully learned that God is the Lawgiver, the very point we're > discussing now. He's also the teacher who effectively pointed out that > we do indeed believe in salvation by grace, despite what many Latter-day > Saints mistakenly believe and even teach. > > I also took a genealogy course from Sister Black, which I enjoyed quite > a bit. I worked harder in that class than in any other religion class I > ever took. I got very good marks all the way through on tests and > projects, but only pulled a 'B' on the final. My course grade: B+. I've > never quite forgiven her for that... (Not that I'd normally be unhappy > with a B+ in a tough course, but it's the only religion class I ever > took that I got less than an 'A' in, and I honestly thought I'd earned > an 'A'. Ah, well. Cue the violins. At least I know how to spell > carob-beans.) > > Stephen > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Natural Law
-George- > Much of what is quoted by Sis Black is from a paper by LaMar > Garrard, "God, Natural Law, and the Doctrine and Covenants" Brother Garrard may well have been my wife's and my favorite teacher at BYU, even though we only ever had him for one class. When he came in the first day, I thought he was the goofiest-looking teacher I had ever seen. By the end of the term, I thought his face reflected the countenance of Jesus Christ. In fact, it was from him that I most forcefully learned that God is the Lawgiver, the very point we're discussing now. He's also the teacher who effectively pointed out that we do indeed believe in salvation by grace, despite what many Latter-day Saints mistakenly believe and even teach. I also took a genealogy course from Sister Black, which I enjoyed quite a bit. I worked harder in that class than in any other religion class I ever took. I got very good marks all the way through on tests and projects, but only pulled a 'B' on the final. My course grade: B+. I've never quite forgiven her for that... (Not that I'd normally be unhappy with a B+ in a tough course, but it's the only religion class I ever took that I got less than an 'A' in, and I honestly thought I'd earned an 'A'. Ah, well. Cue the violins. At least I know how to spell carob-beans.) Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
