Re: [Zope-dev] Defining Zope 3.

2009-04-17 Thread Andrew Sawyers
+1 with Tres' position.

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 9:47 AM, Tres Seaver tsea...@palladion.com wrote:

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 Martijn Faassen wrote:
  Jim Fulton wrote:
  On Apr 17, 2009, at 11:49 AM, Martijn Faassen wrote:
 
  Simon Michael wrote:
  -1, Gary's is clearer.
  I think what is clear or not is very subjective. I think that at least
  is clear.
 
  I think it is clear that you are disregarding many people's opinions.
 
  Okay, I'll come back with a bit more rational response than my first one.
 
  Could you also tell me how I'm disregarding people's opinions in this
  thread? Examples?
 
  Or do you think stating my own opinions and concerns, while I'm clearly
(explicitly mentioned) thinking this topic through, is tantamount to
  disregarding other people's opinions?
 
  Do you really think I'm in this discussion with people just to disregard
  their opinions?
 
  I'm trying to consider the impact of changing a well-known well-used
  name that carries certain expectations (different ones for different
  people!) to something else that was set up explicitly to have different
  expectations, namely the Zope Toolkit.
 
  The Zope Toolkit concept was explicitly designed to *separate* those
  expectations from the (vague but broad) expectations surrounding Zope 3.
  I spent quite a bit of time trying to work that out. Now we're a few
  weeks later. It is proposed instead we rename what we called Zope 3 to
  Zope Toolkit and tell everybody that the expectations changed. I've
  expressed clearly that's an interesting approach and also clearly that I
  have some concerns.

 I am -1 on pushing a Zope3 is now the Zope Toolkit message:  I would
 rather that we *not bring up Zope3 in public again*, while still
 enabling those who have built apps atop the un-brand to maintain them.
 If somebody asks, Hey, what happened to Zope3?, we can explain briefly
 that the core of it is now ZTK, and that the other bits have a life of
 their own, but *without the un-brand*.

 To this end, I think we sholud remove all traces of the un-brand from
 prominent places on our websites, try to stay on message as a
 community, while re-focusing on the technical aspects of the transition
 (rather than the branding / perception ones).


 Tres.
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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: Uploading the Installer for Windows

2007-03-01 Thread Andrew Sawyers
 Toc, toc. Is there anybody home?
I'll test it for you alsolet you know how it goes.

Andrew Sawyers

 On 2/23/07, Sidnei da Silva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Someone volunteered to test and upload the Zope Installer for Windows
 when one was ready. I believe Chris Withers was the vict..^H^H
 volunteer. There's an installer ready for testing over here:

 http://files.enfoldsystems.com/Zope-2.10.2-Final-6947.exe

 Thanks!

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 Enfold Systemshttp://enfoldsystems.com
 Fax +1 832 201 8856 Office +1 713 942 2377 Ext 214



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[Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Two visions

2006-02-27 Thread Andrew Sawyers
On Mon, 2006-02-27 at 10:37 -0500, Jim Fulton wrote:
 I'd like to get feedback on two possible visions for the future of
 Zope 2 and Zope 3.  
 
 1) Our current vision (AFAIK) is that Zope 3 will eventually
replace Zope 2
 
- There will be lots of overlap between the Zope 2 and Zope 3
  lifetimes.  (Zope 2 might be supported more or less
  forever.)
 
- Eventually, the gap between Zope 2 and will become very small. 
  requiring a small leap.
 
In this vision, Zope 3 would have to become a lot more like
Zope 2, or we would lose features.
-1
   

 2) In an alternate vision, Zope 2 evolves to Zope 5.

 
- Zope 5 will be the application server generally known as Zope.  It
  will be backward compatible (to the same degree that Zope 2
  releases are currently backward compatible with previous Zope 2
  releases) with Zope 2.  Zope 5 will similarly be backward
  compatible with Zope 3 applications built on top of the current
  Zope 3 application server.
 
  Note that Zope 5 will leverage Zope 3 technologies to allow a
  variety of configurations, including a Zope 2-like configuration
  with implicit acquisition and through-the-web development, and a
  Zope 3-like configuration that looks a lot like the current Zope
  3 application server.  Maybe, there will be a configuration that
  allows Zope 2 and Zope 3 applications to be combined to a
  significant degree.
 
- Zope 3 will explode. :)
 
  For many people, Zope 3 is first a collection of technologies
  that can be assembled into a variety of different applications.
  It is second a Zope 2-like application server.  I think that
  these folks aren't really interested in the (Zope 2-like)
  application server.
 
  Zope 3 will continue as a project (or projects) for creating
  and refining these technologies.  
 
  (It would probably make sense for this activity to to have some
   name other than Zope.  On some level, the logical name would
   be Z (pronounced Zed :).  An argument against Z is that 
   it would be hard to google for, but Google handles such queries
   quite well and I'd expect that we'd move to the top of Google Z
   search results fairly quickly.  However, I'll leave naming
   decisions to experts. ;)
 
Advantages of this vision:
 
- Zope 2 users don't need to leave Zope 2. 
 
- Zope 3 doesn't have to reproduce all Zope 2 features.
 
- There wouldn't be confusion about 2 Zopes.
 
It is important that Zope 5 be backward compatible with both Zope 2
and Zope 3, although not necessarily in the same
configuration. Many people are building Zope 3 applications today
and they should not be penalized.
 
 Thoughts?
+2 

I personally think that one of the great things about what has come out
of Zope 3 development:  other projects can use the technologies without
taking Zope 3 lock stock and barrel.  I'd hate to see Zope 3 get more
girth and loose future traction because it had to be fully backwards
compatible with Zope 2.  For those who wish to slowly migrate to using
Zope 3 technologies without completely rewriting their software,
evolving via Five is a fair approach.  

To quote a blog I'd read earlier today:  Doing little things well is a
step towards doing big things better.

Allowing others to assist in refining the little technologies which make
up Zope 3 can achieve this goal.  I would fear this would be impossible
if the first vision was followed.

Andrew Sawyers
 
 Jim
 

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Re: [Zope-dev] zope-2.9 r40780 make install doesn't finish, files missing from bin

2005-12-21 Thread Andrew Sawyers
On Wed, 2005-12-21 at 13:47 -0500, Jim Fulton wrote:

 
 I'll note, FWIW, that we don't do installs from Zope 3 checkouts.
 I think it's worth asking whether this is an important requirement.
 If it is, then we should make it work.  Question is, is it worth
 delaying the release?  I don't know.
I think it's an important requirement; many of us have done this dance
for years.  The reason I'd suspect this got done by Chris M was to ease
our pains we'd had to work around over time and make it easier for
people coming into the Zope Community - or their support staff (i.e.
Admins)  

I can't answer the last question, but it seems to apparent that it's
important and expected behavior by lots of people in the community.  

 
 If we did stay with the current situation, we'd need to cleanup the
 documentation so that a developer can easily reminder herself
 what she can do and how to do it.
If it's indeed *easy* and clear, that should be ok.  It just needs to
work sensibly  :)  So many of us are used to the ./configure; make; make
install dance.
 
 Jim
 

Andrew

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Re: [Zope-dev] zope-2.9 r40780 make install doesn't finish, files missing from bin

2005-12-21 Thread Andrew Sawyers
This has been my approach also.  Not surprisingly, many of us worked on
these processes together and have 'sanitized them' over time.  :)  There
has always been 'another side' who either hasn't liked this procedure or
the 'make' voodoo and have come up with their own, or just haven't had
to do this at all.

Andrew
 
 I really think there is not a single good reason for having a  
 different experience for checkouts vs tarballs. It would even lead to  
 major annoyance where I work right now, just to give a real life  
 example. For us, building out a development sandbox is the same  
 process as building out a production instance, and for development  
 buildouts we routinely want to just substitute checkous from a  
 different tag/branch of Zope.
 
 jens
 


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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: Please vote about conflict errors logging

2005-12-09 Thread Andrew Sawyers
On Fri, 2005-12-09 at 15:45 +0100, Florent Guillaume wrote:

 So I propose another little change: have the error_log copy to event.log be 
 the default behaviour. Today the default is off.
 
 Florent
 

+1

A

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Re: [Zope-dev] Please vote about conflict errors logging

2005-12-05 Thread Andrew Sawyers
On Fri, 2005-12-02 at 23:00 +0100, Florent Guillaume wrote:
 1. Do you want these ConflictErrors retried logs to be at level:
 - INFO
INFO
 - BLATHER
 - DEBUG
 - not logged
 - other
 
 2. In addition, please specify if you feel those retried  
 ConflictErrors should have their full traceback logged?
 - Yes, with traceback
 - No, without traceback
No Traceback
 3. Finally, please tell us if the ConflictErrors that *can't* be  
 retried (and are returned to the user as an error, and are also  
 logged to the error_log) should be additionally explicitely logged to  
 the event log, and at which level:
 - ERROR
 - not logged
 - other
Error
 
 (Also, if you feel the logging should be different between 2.8 and  
 2.9, please say so.)
 
 I'll wait until Wednesday morning to collect results.
 
 Thanks,
 Florent
 
Andrew

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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] RFC: Reunite Zope 2 and Zope 3 in the source code repository

2005-11-24 Thread Andrew Sawyers
On 11/24/05 8:54 AM, Chris McDonough [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Nov 24, 2005, at 8:37 AM, Martijn Faassen wrote:
 I recall a slightly different discussion I was involved in. I
 remember Zope 2 core developers worrying about the inclusion of
 Five in Zope 2.8; they were worried they'd need to maintain its
 codebase.
 
 I was one of these people.  Since then, I've completely changed my
 mind; it was a pure win.
 
 - C

As was I.  Five has brought me and a few others I know closer to Zope 3.
This is a huge win.  Many of us have lots of experience to bring to the
benefit of the Z3 community.  As a result, I am excited to take even more
strides to Z3.  Phillips goal is a good one.  The challenge is if there is
resistance, how to smooth the bridge.  Rather then Z3 developers shoot it
down outright, they should provide reasonable alternatives (other then
doomsday scenarios).

It is a good thing to bring more developers into the Z3 community, many of
us Z2 developers are hungry for this.  I don't know the answer for every
developer on either side of this argument, but there must be an effective
compromise out there.  The two groups need to work to come to that solution
and not alienate one or the other or blindly shoot it down and hope it will
go away.  It's unreasonable to do so.

Taking my ball and heading homely,
Andrew

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RE: [Zope-dev] Problems with Zope 2.8 on FreeBSD (was Re: Problems with PageTemplates on Zope 2.8)

2005-07-01 Thread Andrew Sawyers
Did you bump up the thread stack size for the python you're running Zope
with?  This sounds like that problem.  If you search zope.org for FreeBSD -
I have a note on how I fix it.


Andrew

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 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Morten W. Petersen
 Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 7:37 PM
 To: Max M
 Cc: zope-dev@zope.org
 Subject: [Zope-dev] Problems with Zope 2.8 on FreeBSD (was Re: Problems
 with PageTemplates on Zope 2.8)
 
  I have an application called the Issue Dealer which I'm porting to Zope
  2.8.  However, whenever I try to access a PageTemplate which makes use
  of a page template macro it just hangs and consumes all available CPU.
 
  Any ideas what could be wrong here, or how I could debug it?
 
  Does the server or the client hang?
 
 It's the client that's hanging.  The first time I tested it, it was as a
 simple Zope instance.  http://instance/manage worked fine, but accessing
 an Issue Dealer instance (http://instance/stuff) didn't work.
 
 Now when I try setting up a ZEO server/client version 2.8 with python
 2.3.5 on FreeBSD 5.4, the server hangs even when I try to access
 http://instance/manage.  http://instance/manage_copyright works fine
 however.
 
 -Morten

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RE: [Zope-dev] Uploading Windows release 2.8b1

2005-04-28 Thread Andrew Sawyers
What happened?  Too large of a file?  I can up it for you otherwise, let me
know and I'll check into it.

Andrew

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 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Christian Theune
 Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 2:32 AM
 To: zope-dev@zope.org
 Subject: [Zope-dev] Uploading Windows release 2.8b1
 
 Hi,
 
 the upload didn't work again. If someone could put the file located at
 http://amy.gocept.com/~ctheune/Zope-2.8.0-b1-win32.exe to the right
 place?
 
 The proxy on Zope.org caught me again.
 
 Cheers,
 Christian
 
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RE: [Zope-dev] Re: Uploading Windows release 2.8b1

2005-04-28 Thread Andrew Sawyers
I just bumped this up to 20MBs.

Andrew

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 Hi Christian,
 just tried it and got an error too: 'The request or reply is too large.'
 (Upload size is more than 15MB)
 
 Michael
 
 --
 http://zope.org/Members/d2m
 http://planetzope.org
 
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Re: [Zope-dev] June Zope Bug Day: IRC correction

2004-07-27 Thread Andrew Sawyers
Chris Withers wrote:
Chris Withers wrote:
Where?
  #zope-dev on irc.zope.org

That should probably be irc.freenode.net.
irc.zope.org is just a cname pointing to irc.freenode.net
Andrew
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Re: [Zope-dev] zope-dev list policies

2004-06-24 Thread Andrew Sawyers
Leonardo Rochael Almeida wrote:
+1 for member-only posting
On Wed, 2004-06-16 at 22:24, Tim Peters wrote:
 

Over on the zope and zope-dev lists, there's currently agitation to make
them members-only mailing lists.  The point is that spam could not get thru
then (unless posted by a member).
What would zodb-dev members like?
[...]
   

+1
I propose this policy extends to all ZC managed community lists.
Andrew Sawyers
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[Zope-dev] test: ignore

2004-06-24 Thread Andrew Sawyers
test
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Re: [Zope.Com Geeks] Re: [Zope-dev] zope-dev list policies

2004-06-24 Thread Andrew Sawyers
Ken Manheimer wrote:
I noticed this when it went initially went by, but didn't have time to 
follow up.  The upshot is that there is absolutely no way *under the 
current arrangement* that this is going to happen.  I can see a way to 
swing it, requiring earnest volunteer effort.  Here are the details.

Being the administrator of many of the zope lists (probably over ten 
and below twenty), i am already dismayed by the challenge of the 
typically thirty to one hundred held spam messages, bounces, and other 
effluvia i have to handle *per day*.  I do not know how many of the 
legitimate list messages would additionally be held and require more 
attention (with the current mailman implementation, it takes a lot 
more fuss to approve a held message than to discard it), but the load 
is already untenable, so one more is too many.

Why would we hold non-member postings for review?  Why not simply 
outright reject them?
Andrew

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Re: [Zope.Com Geeks] Re: [Zope-dev] zope-dev list policies

2004-06-24 Thread Andrew Sawyers
Ken Manheimer wrote:
What proportion of the list traffic comes from valid members who are 
posting from alternate accounts?
A huge percentage was - I don't know how much is making it through to 
the lists though.  I'm hearing a lot of complaints from people either 
third party, seeing it in IRC or from emails off the lists.

I've recently added an increased amount of header and body checks which 
were not being applied yesterday as well as increased spam reject 
features.  This should help - in any event now that it's being blocked 
at the MTA, Mailman's load on the server has went from 2 -3 to ~.5 on 
the server in the last hour.
Andrew

On Thu, 24 Jun 2004, Andrew Sawyers wrote:
Ken Manheimer wrote:
I noticed this when it went initially went by, but didn't have time 
to follow up.  The upshot is that there is absolutely no way *under 
the current arrangement* that this is going to happen.  I can see a 
way to swing it, requiring earnest volunteer effort.  Here are the 
details.

Being the administrator of many of the zope lists (probably over ten 
and below twenty), i am already dismayed by the challenge of the 
typically thirty to one hundred held spam messages, bounces, and 
other effluvia i have to handle *per day*.  I do not know how many 
of the legitimate list messages would additionally be held and 
require more attention (with the current mailman implementation, it 
takes a lot more fuss to approve a held message than to discard it), 
but the load is already untenable, so one more is too many.

Why would we hold non-member postings for review?  Why not simply 
outright reject them?


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Re: [Zope.Com Geeks] Re: [Zope-dev] zope-dev list policies

2004-06-24 Thread Andrew Sawyers
Ken Manheimer wrote:
On Thu, 24 Jun 2004, Andrew Sawyers wrote:
Ken Manheimer wrote:
What proportion of the list traffic comes from valid members who are 
posting from alternate accounts?

A huge percentage was - I don't know how much is making it through to 
the lists though.  I'm hearing a lot of complaints from people either 
third party, seeing it in IRC or from emails off the lists.

I've recently added an increased amount of header and body checks 
which were not being applied yesterday as well as increased spam 
reject features.  This should help - in any event now that it's being 
blocked at the MTA, Mailman's load on the server has went from 2 -3 
to ~.5 on the server in the last hour.
Andrew

Huh?  I was specifically talking about the legitimate postings, valid 
members who are posting from alternate accounts, sounds like you're 
talking about spam.

Yeah, I was.  Misunderstood.  Others will have to answer this for 
themselves.  I've said my peace - so that's enough for me.
Andrew

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[Zope-dev] Zope Lists

2004-06-23 Thread Andrew Sawyers
The zope.org lists have been migrated to new hardware.   The lists and 
archives are updated as of  ~10 minutes prior to the DNS switch; so I 
expect them to be as current as I could get.  I've heard of people 
getting resubscribed to lists which they had recently unsubscribed 
from.  Since the old system was not being managed by us, I do not have 
any details as to what/why that might have happened, so if you find 
youself resubscribed now we appologize.  This should not continue to 
happen and if anyone experiences further problems please let us know ASAP.
Thank You,
Andrew Sawyers

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[Zope-dev] zope.org/cvs.zope.org/svn.zope.org server move

2004-06-10 Thread Andrew Sawyers
Dear Zope Community Members,
Excuse the cross post, but this announcement is important to all.
This coming Thursday, 06.17.2004 we will be moving the the zope.org 
website, cvs and svn services to new hardware at our Northern Va. data 
center.  Effective 5:00pm EST the creation of accounts on the zope.org 
website and logging in to the zope.org website will be disabled to 
ensure that up to date data is migrated onto the new servers.  We expect 
this move to take ~1 to 2 hours to complete.  The zope.org TTL and 
secondary refresh times have been updated to 1 hour.  The afternoon of 
the move, these times will be reduced down to 15 minutes in preparation 
for a smooth DNS change over when the migration is complete.  Ken I'm 
evil, so don't mess with me Manheimer will be handling the CVS/SVN 
migration and will provide more details on the expected outages early 
next week.  If anyone has questions, feel free to let us know.
Thanks,
Andrew Sawyers

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Software Engineer
(540) 361-1700
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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Zope and zope

2004-04-14 Thread Andrew Sawyers
Jim Fulton wrote:

The first question is:

Is it a problem to have two packages with names differing only in case?

+1

A response with a positive sign (e.g. +1, +0, +2, ...) indicates
agreement that this is a probelm. :)
Jim

Andrew

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Zope Corporation
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Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-dev] Using 2.3.2 for Zope 2.7

2003-10-03 Thread Andrew Sawyers
I don't know about 'blessing', but I'm using it on a project currently 
(Python 2.3 and Zope 2.6.2) without glitches.
Andrew

Toby Dickenson wrote:

On Friday 03 October 2003 15:33, Chris McDonough wrote:
 

Jim is keen to get an audit going quickly before a 2.7
final release, and the audit would be performed against Python 2.3.2.
   

Does anyone else have an interest in blessing Zope 2.6.x with Python 2.2/2.3 ?



 



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