Re: [Zope-dev] To ZCML or not ;-)
Stephan Richter wrote: Can you be more specific? I think ZCML is very compact. Well, I'm hoping to take a proper look at the latest Z3 "some time soon", so I'll let you know after that and shut up on the subject in the meantime ;-) cheers, Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] To ZCML or not ;-)
Martijn Faassen wrote: Anyway, while I have my criticisms of ZCML, too much typing is really not very important in my list. You can get it somewhat shorter, I'm sure, but not *that* much shorter. I'd worry more about the reading part than the writing. More typing = more reading in my books, so I guess we're in agreement ;-) cheers, Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] To ZCML or not ;-)
Lennart Regebro wrote: [snip] For me, the main drawback with ZCML is that WingIDE doesn't to auto completion on it. ;) An ZCML editor that automatically popped up a list of the supported keywords for every statement would be really nice. :-p Actually emacs + nxml + the Relax NG schema (unfortunately out of date; it should be autogenerated from the code) for ZCML does that. A benefit of using an XML format is that many editors will happily both do syntax high-lighting, some sort of auto-indentation, and automatic commenting/uncommenting. A non-standard syntax wouldn't do that. Yup, and if you use some XML editor (or an XML editor extension for your favorite editor) it can do quite sophisticated schema-driven stuff. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] To ZCML or not ;-)
On Apr 8, 2005 3:09 PM, Stephan Richter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Friday 08 April 2005 07:34, Lennart Regebro wrote: > > For me, the main drawback with ZCML is that WingIDE doesn't to auto > > completion on it. ;) An ZCML editor that automatically popped up a > > list of the supported keywords for every statement would be really > > nice. :-p: > > Yeah, I talked to Stephan and John about that already. Using Wing's new plugin > architecture, it should be possible to insert such functionality. Another > good application for the plugin system would be the recognition of interfaces > by showing the interface documentation of a class implementing a certain > interface. Cool, that's good news. I won't have time to do it for the forseeable future though... -- Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/ CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/ ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] To ZCML or not ;-)
On Friday 08 April 2005 07:34, Lennart Regebro wrote: > For me, the main drawback with ZCML is that WingIDE doesn't to auto > completion on it. ;) An ZCML editor that automatically popped up a > list of the supported keywords for every statement would be really > nice. :-p: Yeah, I talked to Stephan and John about that already. Using Wing's new plugin architecture, it should be possible to insert such functionality. Another good application for the plugin system would be the recognition of interfaces by showing the interface documentation of a class implementing a certain interface. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics & Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] To ZCML or not ;-)
On Friday 08 April 2005 03:24, Chris Withers wrote: > Yes, this is all stuff I know and love about Z3 ;-);-) When I last saw > ZCML, it was horrible though. I don't mind XML, just not if it lots of > pointless typing... Can you be more specific? I think ZCML is very compact. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics & Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] To ZCML or not ;-)
Lennart Regebro wrote: On Apr 8, 2005 12:54 PM, Martijn Faassen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: ... A benefit of using an XML format is that many editors will happily both do syntax high-lighting, some sort of auto-indentation, and automatic commenting/uncommenting. A non-standard syntax wouldn't do that. Speaking of which, a nice little project for someone would be to write a generator to generate RelaxNG schemas from ZCML meta configuration. Then XML editors could provide more help with the editing, possibly including hings like autocompletion. This should be a realtively easy task in that apidoc already has code for extracting documentation from meta configuration. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] To ZCML or not ;-)
On Apr 8, 2005 12:54 PM, Martijn Faassen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Chris Withers wrote: > > Lennart Regebro wrote: > > > >> You know the feeling when a third party product has the wrong > >> permission or no permission at all on something? What are you gonna > >> do? Subclass: Lots of work. Patch: You gotta keep it updated. With > >> ZCML, you override it. TADA! > > > > > > Yes, this is all stuff I know and love about Z3 ;-) When I last saw > > ZCML, it was horrible though. I don't mind XML, just not if it lots of > > pointless typing... > > > > Jim suggests that ZCML has got better, I hope so, in which case I won't > > have to write an alternative that uses the same underlying > > infrastructure :-D > > Since ZML is XML, creating a less verbose language may be easier to > accomplish by actually *using* the XML infrastructure, and translating > your language to ZCML. > > Anyway, while I have my criticisms of ZCML, too much typing is really > not very important in my list. You can get it somewhat shorter, I'm > sure, but not *that* much shorter. I'd worry more about the reading part > than the writing. Yeah, I mean: Is not significantly shorter than: something/something: foo=bar frotz=fnyppel fingal/ohlsson: bitbucket=buccaneer Which would be really a minimal/shortest way to write it. For me, the main drawback with ZCML is that WingIDE doesn't to auto completion on it. ;) An ZCML editor that automatically popped up a list of the supported keywords for every statement would be really nice. :-p A benefit of using an XML format is that many editors will happily both do syntax high-lighting, some sort of auto-indentation, and automatic commenting/uncommenting. A non-standard syntax wouldn't do that. -- Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/ CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/ ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] To ZCML or not ;-)
Chris Withers wrote: Lennart Regebro wrote: You know the feeling when a third party product has the wrong permission or no permission at all on something? What are you gonna do? Subclass: Lots of work. Patch: You gotta keep it updated. With ZCML, you override it. TADA! Yes, this is all stuff I know and love about Z3 ;-) When I last saw ZCML, it was horrible though. I don't mind XML, just not if it lots of pointless typing... Jim suggests that ZCML has got better, I hope so, in which case I won't have to write an alternative that uses the same underlying infrastructure :-D Since ZML is XML, creating a less verbose language may be easier to accomplish by actually *using* the XML infrastructure, and translating your language to ZCML. Anyway, while I have my criticisms of ZCML, too much typing is really not very important in my list. You can get it somewhat shorter, I'm sure, but not *that* much shorter. I'd worry more about the reading part than the writing. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] To ZCML or not ;-)
Lennart Regebro wrote: You know the feeling when a third party product has the wrong permission or no permission at all on something? What are you gonna do? Subclass: Lots of work. Patch: You gotta keep it updated. With ZCML, you override it. TADA! Yes, this is all stuff I know and love about Z3 ;-) When I last saw ZCML, it was horrible though. I don't mind XML, just not if it lots of pointless typing... Jim suggests that ZCML has got better, I hope so, in which case I won't have to write an alternative that uses the same underlying infrastructure :-D cheers, Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] To ZCML or not ;-)
Richard Jones wrote: > Is this a general trend for Zope 2? I'd rather see Zope 2 kinda avoid ZCML if > possible. It's just one of those personal preference things, I suppose, but I > know I'm not the only one who isn't that enamored of the ZCML approach. ZCML started out for me (and as an experinced zope2 programmer I guess the experience may not be that unusual) as "ooh, my, lots to learn, why is it that complex"? Then it becames "oh, it's a consistent way of doing all those thinks that weren't very pythonic, like defining page templates", and then finally I grasped it with "ah, it's really the best parts of aspect orientation; you make all these separate modules, and you tie them together with ZCML!" Like XML or not, the approach of moving this type of meta-information to ZCML rocks. You know the feeling when a third party product has the wrong permission or no permission at all on something? What are you gonna do? Subclass: Lots of work. Patch: You gotta keep it updated. With ZCML, you override it. TADA! ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] To ZCML or not ;-)
Chris Withers wrote: Richard Jones wrote: Is this a general trend for Zope 2? I'd rather see Zope 2 kinda avoid ZCML if possible. It's just one of those personal preference things, I suppose, but I know I'm not the only one who isn't that enamored of the ZCML approach. I actually like having the declarations all in the python code like it is in Zope 2. Am I right in thinking that the XML part of ZCML is layered over python functionality underneath? If so, how hard would it be to provide an alternative to the baroque XML? - the bit of ZCML I don't like ;-) It's is theoretically possible, but not really worth the effort. I'll note that ZCML has gotten progressively simpler over the years. It continues to get simpler. For example, now that we we can say more about adapters in Python, a typical adapter registration looks like: Also, for various reasons, ZCML took on implementation capabilities. We're looking at ways to move that implementation capability back into Python, where it belongs, which will make page definition easier. I expect that page definitions in the future will look more like: Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
