Re: [Zope-dev] Re: stacks != easy to explain
Well, no, not really. Being able to edit stuff remotely is where Zope's real strength lies. WebDAV and FTP are much better than using sucky HTTP forms to do this ;-) The fact that Zope has a TTW interface indicates that the software itself has the opinion that TTW is valuable - otherwise it would not be in there. So this statement is at odds with the software itself (in other words, it's a wish...) ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: stacks != easy to explain
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the TTW part is what is one of the strenghts of Zope - Well, no, not really. Being able to edit stuff remotely is where Zope's real strength lies. WebDAV and FTP are much better than using sucky HTTP forms to do this ;-) Babies. bathwater. Just because ChrisW has gone beyond TTW editing, does not make it a Bad Thing(tm) in general :) I challenge you to justify how editing in a text box is better than using a full text editor, given that both can be used remotely ;-) Hmm... now if I can only find an editor that is worth me spending my valuable time trying to make it do what I want, instead of what it wants for my code Or there are those nice little text boxes... they don't assume they know better than me... It seems that ZPT is mostly aimed at the Page Designer, whereas DTML is mostly aimed at the Developer. Would this be a correct assesment of the situation? DTML didn't have a clue who it was aimed at, which was it's main problem ;-) Hmm... strange then that I have used (as have many others) it to produce some very complex (And some think atractive and even elegant) sites. I had always assumed it was aimed at people who wanted to design websites with some server side inteligence - Seems a logical assumption, after all that is what it allows. *grinz* Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: stacks != easy to explain
Don't even get me started on that one! I don't think this is neccessarily a criticism of Zope though, or ZPT. We are all human, and apt to err. ZPT is imperfect, but the balance of opinion would appear to be that it is better than what has gone before. It is irritating to learn a new syntax, it is hard to read (Some of us design Zope sites TTW...) the flow of logic is obscure and sometimes downright impossible to follow, but people seem to work around it anyway. Much the same is true of the failure of Netscape, Microsoft, and all the others to even read, let alone follow, the defined standards on, well, just about anything. There is one important point being missed here though - Why should the non-programmers be interested in the coding? If the concept of a stack is to hard for them to understand, so what? Shouldn't they be designing plain pages, which the coded templates simply render? Or are we now passing off the task of designing look and feel to non-experts? Anyone want to find another area of the industry to dilute? Now, return to the Marc and Chris' last comments, why exactly can't leading browsers follow standards, because they are written by people that can't program, in languages that were made simple for the sake of non-experts. I put it to you that this argument is invalid and of no merit. Adrian... - Original Message - From: Marc Lindahl [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: zope-dev [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Re: stacks != easy to explain on 5/14/02 4:43 AM, Chris Withers at [EMAIL PROTECTED] scrivened: Marc Lindahl wrote: Sorry, but I don't see a 'stack' of any sort being easy to explain to a newbie or not programmer. I'd disagree - HTML has this concept - for example the way table tags inherit properties. Key is that the 'stack' idea is hidden within the hierarchy idea. Hmmm... do you knnow how many people get confused by that specifc issue? Especially as different browsers inherit different levels of formatting... I think the confusion on that issue with tables has only to do with the bugs in the implementation on certain browsers. Which points to the inability of supposedly real programmers to understand stacks, parsing, state machines - not the poor HTML coders :) - if you read diatribes by the layout guys (like alistapart) you'll see their frustration is based that the heirarchy (stacking) isn't working as expected. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: stacks != easy to explain
From: Marc Lindahl [EMAIL PROTECTED] snip in the implementation on certain browsers. Which points to the inability of supposedly real programmers to understand stacks, parsing, state machines - not the poor HTML coders :) - if you read diatribes by the layout guys (like alistapart) you'll see their frustration is based that the heirarchy (stacking) isn't working as expected. So surely it would be bad to introduce a similar bug opportunity? Adrian Hungate wrote: would appear to be that it is better than what has gone before. It is irritating to learn a new syntax, Think of the benefits ;-) it is hard to read (Some of us design Zope sites TTW...) Un-learn that habit too. It's so nice having things like search replace and syntax highlighting afterall... the flow of logic is obscure and sometimes downright impossible to follow, Urm? Gimme some examples so I can help... There is one important point being missed here though - Why should the non-programmers be interested in the coding? If the concept of a stack is to hard for them to understand, so what? Shouldn't they be designing plain pages, which the coded templates simply render? See the TASSLE discussion over on the ZPT list ;-) Or are we now passing off the task of designing look and feel to non-experts? Anyone want to find another area of the industry to dilute? Now, return to the Marc and Chris' last comments, why exactly can't leading browsers follow standards, because they are written by people that can't program, in languages that were made simple for the sake of non-experts. I put it to you that this argument is invalid and of no merit. I don't even understand the point you're missing ;-) *grinz* Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: stacks != easy to explain
From: Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] it is hard to read (Some of us design Zope sites TTW...) Un-learn that habit too. It's so nice having things like search replace and syntax highlighting afterall... Now, this is an interesting statement and one I have heard often, and that I throughly disagree on. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the TTW part is what is one of the strenghts of Zope - I'd say that the fact that Zope uses TTW editing has had a major impact on the kind of templating mechanism and infrastructure that Zope, as opposed to much of the competition, offers out of the box. I myself choose over iPlanet and Oracle Application Server, because Zope had a lot of infrastructure IN PLACE that is needed for development, as opposed to say, Oracle Application Server, where I had to write everything from scratch, including lots of the admin interfaces. As an example, the only real competitior that Zope had at the time I was loking for web-app frameworks was Roxen Challanger, where Roxen gives away the Roxen Webserver as GPL, but sells their TTW development environment for about 5000 US$/developer. So, TTW has it's merits. Now, Roxen has FILESYSTEM based development as well, which might be what we all want as well, but *not instead*. Just because ChrisW has gone beyond TTW editing, does not make it a Bad Thing(tm) in general :) Going back to the ZPT is good/bad and DTML is ok/evil discussion, something hit me a couple of weeks ago while chatting on #zope: It seems that ZPT is mostly aimed at the Page Designer, whereas DTML is mostly aimed at the Developer. Would this be a correct assesment of the situation? /dario ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: stacks != easy to explain
Hi Dario, Dario Lopez-Kästen wrote: Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the TTW part is what is one of the strenghts of Zope - Well, no, not really. Being able to edit stuff remotely is where Zope's real strength lies. WebDAV and FTP are much better than using sucky HTTP forms to do this ;-) Just because ChrisW has gone beyond TTW editing, does not make it a Bad Thing(tm) in general :) I challenge you to justify how editing in a text box is better than using a full text editor, given that both can be used remotely ;-) It seems that ZPT is mostly aimed at the Page Designer, whereas DTML is mostly aimed at the Developer. Would this be a correct assesment of the situation? DTML didn't have a clue who it was aimed at, which was it's main problem ;-) *grinz* Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: stacks != easy to explain
Marc Lindahl wrote: Sorry, but I don't see a 'stack' of any sort being easy to explain to a newbie or not programmer. I'd disagree - HTML has this concept - for example the way table tags inherit properties. Key is that the 'stack' idea is hidden within the hierarchy idea. Hmmm... do you knnow how many people get confused by that specifc issue? Especially as different browsers inherit different levels of formatting... cheers, Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: stacks != easy to explain
on 5/14/02 4:43 AM, Chris Withers at [EMAIL PROTECTED] scrivened: Marc Lindahl wrote: Sorry, but I don't see a 'stack' of any sort being easy to explain to a newbie or not programmer. I'd disagree - HTML has this concept - for example the way table tags inherit properties. Key is that the 'stack' idea is hidden within the hierarchy idea. Hmmm... do you knnow how many people get confused by that specifc issue? Especially as different browsers inherit different levels of formatting... I think the confusion on that issue with tables has only to do with the bugs in the implementation on certain browsers. Which points to the inability of supposedly real programmers to understand stacks, parsing, state machines - not the poor HTML coders :) - if you read diatribes by the layout guys (like alistapart) you'll see their frustration is based that the heirarchy (stacking) isn't working as expected. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: stacks != easy to explain
on 5/13/02 3:15 PM, Chris Withers at [EMAIL PROTECTED] scrivened: Marc Lindahl wrote: Still I think the concept of TAL having some kind of 'stack' for condition results makes sense and is worth exploring... Could yield better logical constructs, and things like case statements. Sorry, but I don't see a 'stack' of any sort being easy to explain to a newbie or not programmer. I'd disagree - HTML has this concept - for example the way table tags inherit properties. Key is that the 'stack' idea is hidden within the hierarchy idea. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
