Re: [Zope-dev] [Zope-Checkins] SVN: Zope/trunk/ merged haufe-legacy-integration branch

[Bjorn Tillenius]

On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 09:51:42AM +0100, Chris Withers wrote:
> Bjorn Tillenius wrote:
>>> https://launchpad.net/zope2
>>
>> Oh, that's unfortunate. There you have to go to the Bugs tab, and then
>> you should see a "Subscribe to bug mail" link in the middle of the page.
>
> ...and even there it's pretty well hidden.
>
> Why isn't it a "big button" like "Report a bug" and "Ask a question"?

Because we can't have everything being big buttons ;) The more big
buttons you have, the more hidden each button get. I do agree that it is
kind of hidden where it is now. I'll talk to our UI designer and see if
we can improve its discoverability somehow.


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Re: [Zope-dev] [Zope-Checkins] SVN: Zope/trunk/ merged haufe-legacy-integration branch

[Chris Withers]

Bjorn Tillenius wrote:
>> https://launchpad.net/zope2
> 
> Oh, that's unfortunate. There you have to go to the Bugs tab, and then
> you should see a "Subscribe to bug mail" link in the middle of the page.

...and even there it's pretty well hidden.

Why isn't it a "big button" like "Report a bug" and "Ask a question"?

Chris

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Re: [Zope-dev] [Zope-Checkins] SVN: Zope/trunk/ merged haufe-legacy-integration branch

[Bjorn Tillenius]

On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 09:31:42AM +0100, Chris Withers wrote:
> Bjorn Tillenius wrote:
>> On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 02:25:38PM +0100, Chris Withers wrote:
>>> The problem is that the visibility of issues in Launchpad is very 
>>> poor. You can't even get notifications of bugs unless you're part of 
>>> the development team.
>>
>> You don't have to be part of the development team. You can go to
>> https://launchpad.net/zope/ and click on "Subscribe to bug mail" to get
>> notification of bug changes.
>
> I see no such option on:
>
> https://launchpad.net/zope2

Oh, that's unfortunate. There you have to go to the Bugs tab, and then
you should see a "Subscribe to bug mail" link in the middle of the page.


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Re: [Zope-dev] [Zope-Checkins] SVN: Zope/trunk/ merged haufe-legacy-integration branch

[Chetan Kumar]

On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Chris Withers  wrote:
> I see no such option on:
>
> https://launchpad.net/zope2

This page has the option:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope2

"Bugs" tab on this link takes one to the above URL.
https://launchpad.net/zope2

Chetan
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Re: [Zope-dev] [Zope-Checkins] SVN: Zope/trunk/ merged haufe-legacy-integration branch

[Chris Withers]

Bjorn Tillenius wrote:
> On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 02:25:38PM +0100, Chris Withers wrote:
>> The problem is that the visibility of issues in Launchpad is very poor. 
>> You can't even get notifications of bugs unless you're part of the 
>> development team.
> 
> You don't have to be part of the development team. You can go to
> https://launchpad.net/zope/ and click on "Subscribe to bug mail" to get
> notification of bug changes.

I see no such option on:

https://launchpad.net/zope2

Chris

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Re: [Zope-dev] [Zope-Checkins] SVN: Zope/trunk/ merged haufe-legacy-integration branch

[Bjorn Tillenius]

On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 02:25:38PM +0100, Chris Withers wrote:
> The problem is that the visibility of issues in Launchpad is very poor. 
> You can't even get notifications of bugs unless you're part of the 
> development team.

You don't have to be part of the development team. You can go to
https://launchpad.net/zope/ and click on "Subscribe to bug mail" to get
notification of bug changes.


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Re: [Zope-dev] [Zope-Checkins] SVN: Zope/trunk/ merged haufe-legacy-integration branch

[Chris Withers]

Sidnei da Silva wrote:
> Obviously it's not visible anymore once you *are* a member of a team.
> For an example of what it looks like when you're not a member of a
> team, see this screenshot:
> 
>   http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/14102/screenshot_027_8l3CD1.png
> 
> To me the link is perfectly clear there, with a green '+' icon and all.

Hmm, may just have been me then. My membership somehow became 
'deactivated' before and I didn't get the add link but I wasn't getting 
the tracker emails either.

I've left the "Launchpad Beta" group,  so I shouldn't have edge. 
interfering with things anymore...

Chris

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Re: [Zope-dev] [Zope-Checkins] SVN: Zope/trunk/ merged haufe-legacy-integration branch

[Sidnei da Silva]

On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Chris Withers  wrote:
> Sidnei da Silva wrote:
>>
>> And the original message said:
>>
>> """
>> That page was changed recently
>> to show more information. You can see from the screenshot on this page
>> that there used to be a Big Green Button in the page for joining the
>> team:
>>
>> https://help.launchpad.net/Teams/Joining
>> """
>
> Yes, I read this, but since, as you say, launchpad has changed, this
> information is no longer relevant so I didn't reply to it.

/me shrugs.

I was pointing out that there *used* to be a Big Green Button, and it
doesn't exist anymore. You said "I don't see a Big Green Button". Of
course the information is relevant. I was telling you *NOT* to look
for a Big Green Button because it doesn't exist anymore, and, still,
you looked for one.

>>> Are zope2-dev or zope3-dev similarly restricted teams?
>>> If so, how do people find out how to join a restricted team?
>>
>> See Andreas' reply.
>
> I have and was waiting for you to reply, I was hoping you could explain
> where you'd find a join link for a moderated team...

The screenshot I've sent is for a moderated team, gnome-terminator.
The link is visible there and would be in the same location for
someone joining zope-dev.

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Re: [Zope-dev] [Zope-Checkins] SVN: Zope/trunk/ merged haufe-legacy-integration branch

[Chris Withers]

Sidnei da Silva wrote:
> And the original message said:
> 
> """
> That page was changed recently
> to show more information. You can see from the screenshot on this page
> that there used to be a Big Green Button in the page for joining the
> team:
> 
> https://help.launchpad.net/Teams/Joining
> """

Yes, I read this, but since, as you say, launchpad has changed, this 
information is no longer relevant so I didn't reply to it.

>> Are zope2-dev or zope3-dev similarly restricted teams?
>> If so, how do people find out how to join a restricted team?
> 
> See Andreas' reply.

I have and was waiting for you to reply, I was hoping you could explain 
where you'd find a join link for a moderated team...

Chris

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Re: [Zope-dev] [Zope-Checkins] SVN: Zope/trunk/ merged haufe-legacy-integration branch

[Tres Seaver]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Andreas Jung wrote:
> On 12.05.09 16:02, Andreas Jung wrote:
>> On 12.05.09 15:25, Chris Withers wrote:
>>   
>>> Andreas Jung wrote:
>>> 
> - It's being done into the beta phase of Zope 2.12 
> 
 changes in this *early* beta phase, no changes after beta 2 are
 acceptable).
   
>>> This feels like an abuse of your position as release manager.
>>> 
>> I call it adjusting the policies as needed for getting things done and
>> for getting important things and I emphasize once again: it happend
>> during beta 1 - we proceeded always this way to some degree. I am not
>> the slave to the policy.
>>
>>   
>>> Can you honestly tell me that if it was anyone other than you, you'd
>>> let them merge these changes after you'd already cut beta 1?
>>>
>>> 
 Feature 2 (the one you are complaining about): Making  a
 multisection.

 The rational behind this change is clear: making the Zope configuration
 more modular for bigger setups. In complex setups there is a need for
 having this
 extension if you don't want and can't to build a monolithic
 configuration.
   
>>> There are plenty of options other than this, the one that jumps to
>>> mind would be a buildout recipe similar to collective.recipe.template
>>> that staples together your various config file snippets into one
>>> zope.conf.
>>> 
>> Possibly. As said, I am not married with this particular feature.
>>   
>>> 
 "The community" working on Zope 2.12 was basically Hanno doing most of
 the work,
 Tres and me.
   
>>> That's not quite true, other people have been contributing fixes and I
>>> know I spent a lot of time getting Zope 2.12 to work in a buildout
>>> without the need for rewriting the zope2instance recipe.
>>>
>>> But, that aside, people working on Zope 2.12 does not make up the
>>> whole community, there's the whole userbase, or even potential
>>> userbase to consider.
>>> 
>> We try our best for not breaking things - this happens from time to time
>> - usually
>> unintended. It's perfectly fine when an incompatiblity pops up during
>> the beta phase.
>> No need for crying out lould.
>>
>>   
 So the actual development is driven by the people doing the
 work and by
 their needs. 
   
>>> I agree with this.
>>>
>>> 
 Not every new feature must be discussed in depth on the list. 
   
>>> I don't agree with this. New features should always be discussed. Had
>>> you posted the messages you posted to the bug tracker to this list
>>> instead, and then waited a week or so for people to comment, that
>>> would have been fine.
>>> 
>> A mis-configuration/mis-feature of Launchpad. There should be a list for
>> all LP
>> related traffic. Right now you have to be member of the Zope 2 group on LP.
>> Something we can easily fix.
>>
>>   
>>> 
 Consider this being a defect of your release process and planning. 
   
>>> *My* release process and planning?
>>> 
>> Sorry, basically not my problem - if you depend on bleeding-edge
>> releases, you
>> have to be aware of the consequences. And since we have no schedule for
>> the release, your planning is pretty much obsolete.
>>
>>   
>>> 
 The primary purpose of the  section is for making
 additional environment
 variables available with Zope. I consider being an "internal"
 functionality.
   
>>> Well, I consider it less than internal ;-)
>>> 
>> That 's
>>  a
>>  matter
>>  of
>>  opinion
>> .
>>   
>>> 
> Andreas, please revert this change until people have had a chance to
> look at it properly.
> 
 Reverting the change without a discussion was offending (see above). And
 I want to emphasize
 once more: none of the people doing the development work need to ask for
 every single
 change made to the Zope 2 core for public feedback. 
   
>>> I actually agree with this, but I don't agree in the case of new
>>> features or in the case of backwards compatibility breakages.
>>> 
>> See above. I could not commit the fixes and new features earlier  because
>> of constraints that don't belong into public.
>>   
>>> Nevertheless, if you're intent on bulldozing this change through,
>>> please consider using and writing a test for the one additional like I
>>> gave you that should result in getConfiguration().environment being
>>> the single dict it always has been and should logically be.
>>> 
>> Where is the test telling us that getConfiguration().environment has to
>> be a dict (as it is used
>> only 

Re: [Zope-dev] [Zope-Checkins] SVN: Zope/trunk/ merged haufe-legacy-integration branch

[Andreas Jung]

On 12.05.09 17:25, Chris Withers wrote:

> > Sidnei da Silva wrote:
>   
>> >> On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 12:12 PM, Chris Withers
>> >>  wrote:
>> 
>>> >>> Huh? I can't tell for zope2-dev as I'm a member, but I see no "big
>>> >>> green
>>> >>> button" here:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> https://edge.launchpad.net/~launchpad-dev
>>>   
>> >>
>> >> Chris, please slow down and read the *whole* message and also my other
>> >> replies. 
>> 
> >
> > I did read the *whole* message...
> >
>   
>> >> I can't keep up with your speed, and you you're just causing
>> >> a lot of extra communication overhead by not reading what I'm writing
>> >> and quickly replying with short messages. 
>> 
> >
> > I'm reading everything you're writing. What do you think I missed?
> >
> > What you should have said was that there's no join button on
> > launchpad-dev because it's a "restricted team", whatever that means.
> >
> > Are zope2-dev or zope3-dev similarly restricted teams?
> > If so, how do people find out how to join a restricted team?
> >
>   
LP distinguishes between open, moderated and restricted teams. zope2-dev
is a moderated team.

Andreas



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Re: [Zope-dev] [Zope-Checkins] SVN: Zope/trunk/ merged haufe-legacy-integration branch

[Sidnei da Silva]

On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 12:25 PM, Chris Withers  wrote:
> I'm reading everything you're writing. What do you think I missed?

You said:

>>> Huh? I can't tell for zope2-dev as I'm a member, but I see no "big green
>>> button" here:

And the original message said:

"""
That page was changed recently
to show more information. You can see from the screenshot on this page
that there used to be a Big Green Button in the page for joining the
team:

https://help.launchpad.net/Teams/Joining
"""

That means you didn't read the whole message, and no matter how much
effort I spend in explaining this to you, if you don't read the whole
message then it's worthless.

> Are zope2-dev or zope3-dev similarly restricted teams?
> If so, how do people find out how to join a restricted team?

See Andreas' reply.

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Re: [Zope-dev] [Zope-Checkins] SVN: Zope/trunk/ merged haufe-legacy-integration branch

[Chris Withers]

Sidnei da Silva wrote:
> On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 12:12 PM, Chris Withers  
> wrote:
>> Huh? I can't tell for zope2-dev as I'm a member, but I see no "big green
>> button" here:
>>
>> https://edge.launchpad.net/~launchpad-dev
> 
> Chris, please slow down and read the *whole* message and also my other
> replies. 

I did read the *whole* message...

>I can't keep up with your speed, and you you're just causing
> a lot of extra communication overhead by not reading what I'm writing
> and quickly replying with short messages. 

I'm reading everything you're writing. What do you think I missed?

What you should have said was that there's no join button on 
launchpad-dev because it's a "restricted team", whatever that means.

Are zope2-dev or zope3-dev similarly restricted teams?
If so, how do people find out how to join a restricted team?

Chris

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Re: [Zope-dev] [Zope-Checkins] SVN: Zope/trunk/ merged haufe-legacy-integration branch

[Andreas Jung]

On 12.05.09 17:07, Sidnei da Silva wrote:
> On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 12:06 PM, Andreas Jung  wrote:
>   
>> Will do - after having the URL for the "Join" link.
>> 
> https://launchpad.net/~zope2-dev/+join

I added a note to the developers docs (should be online with the
next automatic update of docs.zope.org).

Andreas
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Re: [Zope-dev] [Zope-Checkins] SVN: Zope/trunk/ merged haufe-legacy-integration branch

[Sidnei da Silva]

On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 12:12 PM, Chris Withers  wrote:
> Huh? I can't tell for zope2-dev as I'm a member, but I see no "big green
> button" here:
>
> https://edge.launchpad.net/~launchpad-dev

Chris, please slow down and read the *whole* message and also my other
replies. I can't keep up with your speed, and you you're just causing
a lot of extra communication overhead by not reading what I'm writing
and quickly replying with short messages. This is not IRC/IM.

Thanks!

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Re: [Zope-dev] [Zope-Checkins] SVN: Zope/trunk/ merged haufe-legacy-integration branch

[Chris Withers]

Sidnei da Silva wrote:
> On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 11:58 AM, Chris Withers  
> wrote:
>> It took me ages to figure out how to do this, and I still couldn't tell
>> you how to do it now. Launchpad has an *extremely* poor UI here, what
>> would be so hard about having a "request to join this team" link
>> somewhere prominently on the team page?
> 
> It's visible enough to me right there were it is?

Huh? I can't tell for zope2-dev as I'm a member, but I see no "big green 
button" here:

https://edge.launchpad.net/~launchpad-dev

Chris

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Re: [Zope-dev] [Zope-Checkins] SVN: Zope/trunk/ merged haufe-legacy-integration branch

[Sidnei da Silva]

On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Chris Withers  wrote:
> Sidnei da Silva wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 12:06 PM, Andreas Jung  wrote:
>>>
>>> Will do - after having the URL for the "Join" link.
>>
>> https://launchpad.net/~zope2-dev/+join
>
> And where, exactly, are you supposed to find that?!

Obviously it's not visible anymore once you *are* a member of a team.
For an example of what it looks like when you're not a member of a
team, see this screenshot:

  http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/14102/screenshot_027_8l3CD1.png

To me the link is perfectly clear there, with a green '+' icon and all.

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Re: [Zope-dev] [Zope-Checkins] SVN: Zope/trunk/ merged haufe-legacy-integration branch

[Sidnei da Silva]

On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 11:58 AM, Chris Withers  wrote:
> It took me ages to figure out how to do this, and I still couldn't tell
> you how to do it now. Launchpad has an *extremely* poor UI here, what
> would be so hard about having a "request to join this team" link
> somewhere prominently on the team page?

It's visible enough to me right there were it is?

I can understand your complaint though. That page was changed recently
to show more information. You can see from the screenshot on this page
that there used to be a Big Green Button in the page for joining the
team:

https://help.launchpad.net/Teams/Joining

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Re: [Zope-dev] [Zope-Checkins] SVN: Zope/trunk/ merged haufe-legacy-integration branch

[Chris Withers]

Sidnei da Silva wrote:
> On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 12:06 PM, Andreas Jung  wrote:
>> Will do - after having the URL for the "Join" link.
> 
> https://launchpad.net/~zope2-dev/+join

And where, exactly, are you supposed to find that?!

Chris

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Re: [Zope-dev] [Zope-Checkins] SVN: Zope/trunk/ merged haufe-legacy-integration branch

[Sidnei da Silva]

On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 12:06 PM, Andreas Jung  wrote:
> Will do - after having the URL for the "Join" link.

https://launchpad.net/~zope2-dev/+join

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Re: [Zope-dev] [Zope-Checkins] SVN: Zope/trunk/ merged haufe-legacy-integration branch

[Andreas Jung]

On 12.05.09 16:58, Chris Withers wrote:
> Andreas Jung wrote:
>> Every active core developer should be member of Zope 2 dev team:
>>
>> https://launchpad.net/~zope2-dev
>>
>> It is up to each developer to join the team
>
> It took me ages to figure out how to do this, and I still couldn't
> tell you how to do it now. Launchpad has an *extremely* poor UI here,
> what would be so hard about having a "request to join this team" link
> somewhere prominently on the team page?

Where the hell is the "join" link - I can't find it.
>
> It might be good to put an explanation of how to do this on:
> http://docs.zope.org/developer/
> ...once you figure it out.

Will do - after having the URL for the "Join" link.

Andreas
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Re: [Zope-dev] [Zope-Checkins] SVN: Zope/trunk/ merged haufe-legacy-integration branch

[Chris Withers]

Andreas Jung wrote:
> Every active core developer should be member of Zope 2 dev team:
> 
> https://launchpad.net/~zope2-dev
> 
> It is up to each developer to join the team

It took me ages to figure out how to do this, and I still couldn't tell 
you how to do it now. Launchpad has an *extremely* poor UI here, what 
would be so hard about having a "request to join this team" link 
somewhere prominently on the team page?

It might be good to put an explanation of how to do this on:
http://docs.zope.org/developer/
...once you figure it out.

Chris

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Re: [Zope-dev] [Zope-Checkins] SVN: Zope/trunk/ merged haufe-legacy-integration branch

[Andreas Jung]

On 12.05.09 16:02, Andreas Jung wrote:
> On 12.05.09 15:25, Chris Withers wrote:
>   
>> Andreas Jung wrote:
>> 
 - It's being done into the beta phase of Zope 2.12 
 
>>> changes in this *early* beta phase, no changes after beta 2 are
>>> acceptable).
>>>   
>> This feels like an abuse of your position as release manager.
>> 
> I call it adjusting the policies as needed for getting things done and
> for getting important things and I emphasize once again: it happend
> during beta 1 - we proceeded always this way to some degree. I am not
> the slave to the policy.
>
>   
>> Can you honestly tell me that if it was anyone other than you, you'd
>> let them merge these changes after you'd already cut beta 1?
>>
>> 
>>> Feature 2 (the one you are complaining about): Making  a
>>> multisection.
>>>
>>> The rational behind this change is clear: making the Zope configuration
>>> more modular for bigger setups. In complex setups there is a need for
>>> having this
>>> extension if you don't want and can't to build a monolithic
>>> configuration.
>>>   
>> There are plenty of options other than this, the one that jumps to
>> mind would be a buildout recipe similar to collective.recipe.template
>> that staples together your various config file snippets into one
>> zope.conf.
>> 
> Possibly. As said, I am not married with this particular feature.
>   
>> 
>>> "The community" working on Zope 2.12 was basically Hanno doing most of
>>> the work,
>>> Tres and me.
>>>   
>> That's not quite true, other people have been contributing fixes and I
>> know I spent a lot of time getting Zope 2.12 to work in a buildout
>> without the need for rewriting the zope2instance recipe.
>>
>> But, that aside, people working on Zope 2.12 does not make up the
>> whole community, there's the whole userbase, or even potential
>> userbase to consider.
>> 
> We try our best for not breaking things - this happens from time to time
> - usually
> unintended. It's perfectly fine when an incompatiblity pops up during
> the beta phase.
> No need for crying out lould.
>
>   
>>> So the actual development is driven by the people doing the
>>> work and by
>>> their needs. 
>>>   
>> I agree with this.
>>
>> 
>>> Not every new feature must be discussed in depth on the list. 
>>>   
>> I don't agree with this. New features should always be discussed. Had
>> you posted the messages you posted to the bug tracker to this list
>> instead, and then waited a week or so for people to comment, that
>> would have been fine.
>> 
> A mis-configuration/mis-feature of Launchpad. There should be a list for
> all LP
> related traffic. Right now you have to be member of the Zope 2 group on LP.
> Something we can easily fix.
>
>   
>> 
>>> Consider this being a defect of your release process and planning. 
>>>   
>> *My* release process and planning?
>> 
> Sorry, basically not my problem - if you depend on bleeding-edge
> releases, you
> have to be aware of the consequences. And since we have no schedule for
> the release, your planning is pretty much obsolete.
>
>   
>>
>> 
>>> The primary purpose of the  section is for making
>>> additional environment
>>> variables available with Zope. I consider being an "internal"
>>> functionality.
>>>   
>> Well, I consider it less than internal ;-)
>> 
> That 's
>  a
>  matter
>  of
>  opinion
> .
>   
>> 
 Andreas, please revert this change until people have had a chance to
 look at it properly.
 
>>> Reverting the change without a discussion was offending (see above). And
>>> I want to emphasize
>>> once more: none of the people doing the development work need to ask for
>>> every single
>>> change made to the Zope 2 core for public feedback. 
>>>   
>> I actually agree with this, but I don't agree in the case of new
>> features or in the case of backwards compatibility breakages.
>> 
> See above. I could not commit the fixes and new features earlier  because
> of constraints that don't belong into public.
>   
>> Nevertheless, if you're intent on bulldozing this change through,
>> please consider using and writing a test for the one additional like I
>> gave you that should result in getConfiguration().environment being
>> the single dict it always has been and should logically be.
>> 
> Where is the test telling us that getConfiguration().environment has to
> be a dict (as it is used
> only internally)?
>
> Andreas
>
>   


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Re: [Zope-dev] [Zope-Checkins] SVN: Zope/trunk/ merged haufe-legacy-integration branch

[Andreas Jung]

On 12.05.09 16:53, Andreas Jung wrote:
>   
>> That said, I think the process issues are more important than sepcific
>> changes here:
>>
>> - We are too late in the cycle to be jamming in huge piles of features.
>> 
> Two is not a big pile. We had changes other than bugfixes after beta at
> least in Zope 2.9, 2.10 and you added yourself a feature after 2.12.0b1.
> So let's be pragmatic, not dogmatic.
>   
>> - ChrisW is correct that adding issues to Launchpad does *not*
>>   constitute sufficient notice of such features.  Probably less than
>>   ten percent of the "core" developers actually get Launchpad e-mails.
>> 
> Every active core developer should be member of Zope 2 dev team:
>
> https://launchpad.net/~zope2-dev
>
> It is up to each developer to join the team - this is not much different
> from
> a mailinglist membership.
>
> Andreas
>
>   


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Re: [Zope-dev] [Zope-Checkins] SVN: Zope/trunk/ merged haufe-legacy-integration branch

[Andreas Jung]

On 12.05.09 16:37, Andreas Jung wrote:
> On 12.05.09 15:29, Sidnei da Silva wrote:
>   
>> On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 10:25 AM, Chris Withers  
>> wrote:
>>   
>> 
>>> The problem is that the visibility of issues in Launchpad is very poor.
>>> You can't even get notifications of bugs unless you're part of the
>>> development team. Using it for features means that no-one in the wider
>>> community is likely to even know what's going on. That's bad as it means
>>> that no-one gets the opportunity to make suggestions or comments. This
>>> could be improved by getting issue emails sent to this list too, is that
>>> possible?
>>> 
>>>   
>> Yes, that is possible. But I fear this list might not be the most
>> appropriate place. Maybe we should revive the 'zope-collector' mailing
>> list (or am I dreaming that such a list ever existed?)
>>   
>> 
> I *think* there was such a list. LP provides mailinglist support for
> for each group
>
> https://launchpad.net/~zope2-dev
>
> but I see no option for using such a list for tracker notifications.
>
> I suggest to add a pseudo member to the Zope 2 dev team and configure its
> mail address to some new mailman list on lists.zope.org where ppl
> can subscribe/unsubscribe at their own joy and pleasure.
>
> If there are no other options, please vote on my proposal.
>
> Andreas
>
>
>
>   


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Re: [Zope-dev] [Zope-Checkins] SVN: Zope/trunk/ merged haufe-legacy-integration branch

[Sidnei da Silva]

On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 11:37 AM, Andreas Jung  wrote:
> I *think* there was such a list. LP provides mailinglist support for
> for each group
>
> https://launchpad.net/~zope2-dev

That's an option, creating a mailing list for the team. However it's
not required. See below.

> but I see no option for using such a list for tracker notifications.
>
> I suggest to add a pseudo member to the Zope 2 dev team and configure its
> mail address to some new mailman list on lists.zope.org

That's not needed. Since the zope2-dev team is automatically
subscribed to issues, we only need to set it's contact address. If we
set that address to zope-...@lists.zope.org, then issues will
automatically be delivered to it.

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Re: [Zope-dev] [Zope-Checkins] SVN: Zope/trunk/ merged haufe-legacy-integration branch

[Hanno Schlichting]

Chris Withers wrote:
> Andreas Jung wrote:
>> but I see no option for using such a list for tracker notifications.
>>
>> I suggest to add a pseudo member to the Zope 2 dev team and configure its
>> mail address to some new mailman list on lists.zope.org where ppl
>> can subscribe/unsubscribe at their own joy and pleasure.
>>
>> If there are no other options, please vote on my proposal.
> 
> +10 for getting the mail just to come to zope-dev, where more people 
> will see it.

-10 ;) The number of collector entries is quite high and especially the
random bursts of cleanups that happen from time to time can generate
lots of mails which are of little interest to most people.

I don't want to get every bug tracker change note on this list. A
separate list for the interested is fine.

Hanno

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Re: [Zope-dev] [Zope-Checkins] SVN: Zope/trunk/ merged haufe-legacy-integration branch

[Chris Withers]

Andreas Jung wrote:
> but I see no option for using such a list for tracker notifications.
> 
> I suggest to add a pseudo member to the Zope 2 dev team and configure its
> mail address to some new mailman list on lists.zope.org where ppl
> can subscribe/unsubscribe at their own joy and pleasure.
> 
> If there are no other options, please vote on my proposal.

+10 for getting the mail just to come to zope-dev, where more people 
will see it.

+1 for kicking the old zope-collector list back into action.

Chris

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Re: [Zope-dev] [Zope-Checkins] SVN: Zope/trunk/ merged haufe-legacy-integration branch

[Tres Seaver]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Chris Withers wrote:
> Andreas Jung wrote:
>>> - It's being done into the beta phase of Zope 2.12 
>> changes in this *early* beta phase, no changes after beta 2 are
>> acceptable).
> 
> This feels like an abuse of your position as release manager.
> Can you honestly tell me that if it was anyone other than you, you'd let 
> them merge these changes after you'd already cut beta 1?
> 
>> Feature 2 (the one you are complaining about): Making  a
>> multisection.
>>
>> The rational behind this change is clear: making the Zope configuration
>> more modular for bigger setups. In complex setups there is a need for
>> having this
>> extension if you don't want and can't to build a monolithic configuration.
> 
> There are plenty of options other than this, the one that jumps to mind 
> would be a buildout recipe similar to collective.recipe.template that 
> staples together your various config file snippets into one zope.conf.
> 
>> "The community" working on Zope 2.12 was basically Hanno doing most of
>> the work,
>> Tres and me.
> 
> That's not quite true, other people have been contributing fixes and I 
> know I spent a lot of time getting Zope 2.12 to work in a buildout 
> without the need for rewriting the zope2instance recipe.
> 
> But, that aside, people working on Zope 2.12 does not make up the whole 
> community, there's the whole userbase, or even potential userbase to 
> consider.
> 
>> So the actual development is driven by the people doing the
>> work and by
>> their needs. 
> 
> I agree with this.
> 
>> Not every new feature must be discussed in depth on the list. 
> 
> I don't agree with this. New features should always be discussed. Had 
> you posted the messages you posted to the bug tracker to this list 
> instead, and then waited a week or so for people to comment, that would 
> have been fine.
> 
> The problem is that the visibility of issues in Launchpad is very poor. 
> You can't even get notifications of bugs unless you're part of the 
> development team. Using it for features means that no-one in the wider 
> community is likely to even know what's going on. That's bad as it means 
> that no-one gets the opportunity to make suggestions or comments. This 
> could be improved by getting issue emails sent to this list too, is that 
> possible?
> 
>> Consider this being a defect of your release process and planning. 
> 
> *My* release process and planning?
> 
>> We are running this stuff in production at Haufe on *very*very*very*
>> large sites.
>> All those changes are the result of using Zope in enterprise-level
>> installations.
>> I don't know many other Zope installation that beat our internal and
>> external setups
>> in size and complexity.
> 
> Glad to hear it, I was also glad to hear about the tools that make use 
> of these events being released. I look forward to it :-)
> 
>> The primary purpose of the  section is for making
>> additional environment
>> variables available with Zope. I consider being an "internal"
>> functionality.
> 
> Well, I consider it less than internal ;-)

I don't even understand the usecase:  the  sections were
intended to support the whole "extensible" configuration notion, and any
code written for Zope 2.9+ has had access to that feature.

That said, I think the process issues are more important than sepcific
changes here:

- - We are too late in the cycle to be jamming in huge piles of features.

- - ChrisW is correct that adding issues to Launchpad does *not*
  constitute sufficient notice of such features.  Probably less than
  ten percent of the "core" developers actually get Launchpad e-mails.

I get those mails, but stopped looking at them closely when you replied
to an earlier concern of ChrisW's that the changes were only going in on
a private branch.


Tres.
- --
===
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Re: [Zope-dev] [Zope-Checkins] SVN: Zope/trunk/ merged haufe-legacy-integration branch

[Chris Withers]

Sidnei da Silva wrote:
> Yes, that is possible. But I fear this list might not be the most
> appropriate place. 

Why not? I think having all developers being away of activity going on 
with issues related to the software would be a good thing...

> Maybe we should revive the 'zope-collector' mailing
> list (or am I dreaming that such a list ever existed?)

I'd prefer this than nothing. At least then it's easy to join that list 
without having to go through Launchpad's arcane group-joining process...

Chris

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Re: [Zope-dev] [Zope-Checkins] SVN: Zope/trunk/ merged haufe-legacy-integration branch

[Sidnei da Silva]

On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 10:25 AM, Chris Withers  wrote:
> The problem is that the visibility of issues in Launchpad is very poor.
> You can't even get notifications of bugs unless you're part of the
> development team. Using it for features means that no-one in the wider
> community is likely to even know what's going on. That's bad as it means
> that no-one gets the opportunity to make suggestions or comments. This
> could be improved by getting issue emails sent to this list too, is that
> possible?

Yes, that is possible. But I fear this list might not be the most
appropriate place. Maybe we should revive the 'zope-collector' mailing
list (or am I dreaming that such a list ever existed?)

-- 
Sidnei da Silva
Canonical Ltd.
 Landscape · Changing the way you manage your systems
http://landscape.canonical.com
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Re: [Zope-dev] [Zope-Checkins] SVN: Zope/trunk/ merged haufe-legacy-integration branch

[Chris Withers]

Andreas Jung wrote:
>> - It's being done into the beta phase of Zope 2.12 
> changes in this *early* beta phase, no changes after beta 2 are
> acceptable).

This feels like an abuse of your position as release manager.
Can you honestly tell me that if it was anyone other than you, you'd let 
them merge these changes after you'd already cut beta 1?

> Feature 2 (the one you are complaining about): Making  a
> multisection.
> 
> The rational behind this change is clear: making the Zope configuration
> more modular for bigger setups. In complex setups there is a need for
> having this
> extension if you don't want and can't to build a monolithic configuration.

There are plenty of options other than this, the one that jumps to mind 
would be a buildout recipe similar to collective.recipe.template that 
staples together your various config file snippets into one zope.conf.

> "The community" working on Zope 2.12 was basically Hanno doing most of
> the work,
> Tres and me.

That's not quite true, other people have been contributing fixes and I 
know I spent a lot of time getting Zope 2.12 to work in a buildout 
without the need for rewriting the zope2instance recipe.

But, that aside, people working on Zope 2.12 does not make up the whole 
community, there's the whole userbase, or even potential userbase to 
consider.

> So the actual development is driven by the people doing the
> work and by
> their needs. 

I agree with this.

> Not every new feature must be discussed in depth on the list. 

I don't agree with this. New features should always be discussed. Had 
you posted the messages you posted to the bug tracker to this list 
instead, and then waited a week or so for people to comment, that would 
have been fine.

The problem is that the visibility of issues in Launchpad is very poor. 
You can't even get notifications of bugs unless you're part of the 
development team. Using it for features means that no-one in the wider 
community is likely to even know what's going on. That's bad as it means 
that no-one gets the opportunity to make suggestions or comments. This 
could be improved by getting issue emails sent to this list too, is that 
possible?

> Consider this being a defect of your release process and planning. 

*My* release process and planning?

> We are running this stuff in production at Haufe on *very*very*very*
> large sites.
> All those changes are the result of using Zope in enterprise-level
> installations.
> I don't know many other Zope installation that beat our internal and
> external setups
> in size and complexity.

Glad to hear it, I was also glad to hear about the tools that make use 
of these events being released. I look forward to it :-)

> The primary purpose of the  section is for making
> additional environment
> variables available with Zope. I consider being an "internal"
> functionality.

Well, I consider it less than internal ;-)

>> Andreas, please revert this change until people have had a chance to
>> look at it properly.
> Reverting the change without a discussion was offending (see above). And
> I want to emphasize
> once more: none of the people doing the development work need to ask for
> every single
> change made to the Zope 2 core for public feedback. 

I actually agree with this, but I don't agree in the case of new 
features or in the case of backwards compatibility breakages.

Nevertheless, if you're intent on bulldozing this change through, please 
consider using and writing a test for the one additional like I gave you 
that should result in getConfiguration().environment being the single 
dict it always has been and should logically be.

cheers,

Chris

-- 
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- http://www.simplistix.co.uk
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Re: [Zope-dev] [Zope-Checkins] SVN: Zope/trunk/ merged haufe-legacy-integration branch

[Chris Withers]

Hi All,

I have some real issues with this work being done in the fashion it has:

- It's being done into the beta phase of Zope 2.12

- There's been zero discussion with the community before this was done.

Have I missed something here?

In particular:
> Modified: Zope/trunk/src/ZPublisher/Publish.py
> +from zope.event import notify
>  
> +from pubevents import PubStart, PubSuccess, PubFailure, \
> + PubBeforeCommit, PubAfterTraversal
> +

Has anyone looked at the performance implications of all these events 
(which most of us will never use) being fired off?

>  except:
> +# save in order to give 'PubFailure' the original exception info
> +exc_info = sys.exc_info()

As this is never deleted, does it not leak stack frames?

> Modified: Zope/trunk/src/Zope2/Startup/handlers.py
> ===
> --- Zope/trunk/src/Zope2/Startup/handlers.py  2009-05-12 08:32:23 UTC (rev 
> 99865)
> +++ Zope/trunk/src/Zope2/Startup/handlers.py  2009-05-12 08:49:29 UTC (rev 
> 99866)
> @@ -184,8 +184,10 @@
>  """
>  
>  # Set environment variables
> -for k,v in config.environment.items():
> -os.environ[k] = v
> +d = {}
> +for s in config.environment: 
> +d.update(s)
> +os.environ.update(d)

The change in the config that makes this necessary is pretty 
unacceptable. I have lots of code that looks in config.environment, now 
I have to find all that code and change it in a similar fashion. WTF?

> -  
> +  
>  
>   A section which allows a user to define arbitrary key-value pairs for
>   use as environment variables during Zope's run cycle.  It
>   is not recommended to set system-related environment variables such as
>   PYTHONPATH within this section.
>  
> -  
> +  

...this is the offending change.

Andreas, please revert this change until people have had a chance to 
look at it properly.

Chris

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