Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: Using svn checkout with zc packages
On 7/25/07, Philipp von Weitershausen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Florian Lindner wrote: Hello, I use a Zope3 svn checkout for developement. What is the best way to make this working with the zc packages? I don't want to easy_install the entire Zope checkout but I also want my code to work with easy_install'ed versions of these packages. (don't want to change import statements and so on...) My favorite way would be to just do a svn checkout of the zc packages too but it seems to me that it won't work this way (or am I missing something?) $ mkdir zc $ touch __init__.py $ cd zc $ svn co /zc.resourcelibrary/trunk/src/zc/resourcelibrary And then additional checkouts. Basically: - Create an empty 'zc' package with an empty ``__init__.py`` - Go into that directory - When making checkouts from the zc packages in the subversion repository, go into the 'src' instead of getting the root which has the 'setup.py'. So if it's zc.resourcelibrary, typically you will want to check out `trunk/src/zc/resourcelibrary`. Of course you can get a checkout of any package you wish from svn.zope.org, including the zc.* packages. However, they'll likely have dependencies which you will have to resolve as well. Some might also define entry points which means they really want to be installed as eggs. Why do you use checkouts? Do you actually change the packages while you're developing with them? FWIW, we use checkouts at Bottlerocket because that's how we use our own packages. And there are many packages which don't have eggs, or don't have good releases as eggs. For example, there's zc.resourcelibrary - release 0.6 had a serious bug, and I haven't checked to see if there's been a fixed release made since then. For packages like that, we don't do blind checkouts, but we stick with a certain revision number so that we don't get surprised if the code starts using Zope 3.4 features while we're still using 3.3. We handle dependencies semi-manually, semi-automatically. I ended up writing our own build-ish system, inspired by Ruby's Rake, primarily to automate all of the SVN and CVS checkouts, their associated tags, and so on. Have you looked at zc.buildout? Checkout the tutorial [1]. Also, pretty much any zope.* or zc.* package's sandbox is set up using buildout these days, providing you with lots of examples. Last time I checked, which I admit has been a while, buildout didn't provide any examples of how to transition into buildout style development. NONE of our internal code - at least, none of our Zope-focused code is in egg style format. I've been checking out or exporting or unzipping/untarring into either $INSTANCE_HOME/Products or $INSTANCE_HOME/lib/python for nearly a decade. I don't know how to write a new product or library in this style. I don't know how to safely and securely deploy it so that it's only accessible by our internal, deployment, and home and office machines (cvs over ssh has worked fine for us, again, for six-plus years). Even more overwhelming - I don't know how to transition our existing code - internal frameworks and customer projects - into an egg-ish format. And I really don't know where we'll find the time. I still don't know how Eggs work. setuptools documentation, while comprehensive, is about as clear as mud in many places. I don't understand development eggs. And it looks like only subversion is supported for those anyways, am I right? ``zc.buildout`` is something that I'd like us (my company) to start using. But at present, it's overwhelming. It was overwhelming enough that it was easier to write our own automation system that fit in with the way we've worked for so many years than to try to figure out buildout, eggs, all of the various half documented recipes, etc. I feel like I need a training course or consultancy to move to buildout, which requires time and money that we just don't have. -- Jeff Shell ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
AW: [Zope3-Users] Re: Using svn checkout with zc packages
Hi Jeff, Betreff: Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: Using svn checkout with zc packages [...] I feel like I need a training course or consultancy to move to buildout, which requires time and money that we just don't have. Same belongs to me. I'm sitting here and have to debug code like: def foo(self, foo): bar = self.getBar(foo) return getMultiAdapter(bar, self.request) and bang I have to get a dev egg for the package which implements getMultiAdapter just that I can debug into getMultiAdapter. I don't know how somebody can say that's a good concept. For me as a heave *pdb* user it's defently not. Is there another option wich allows me not to checkout the half of the Zope trunk as dev eggs for serious debugging? Regards Roger Ineichen -- Jeff Shell ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: AW: [Zope3-Users] Re: Using svn checkout with zc packages
On Jul 30, 2007, at 10:46 AM, Roger Ineichen wrote: Hi Jeff, Betreff: Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: Using svn checkout with zc packages [...] I feel like I need a training course or consultancy to move to buildout, which requires time and money that we just don't have. Same belongs to me. I'm sitting here and have to debug code like: def foo(self, foo): bar = self.getBar(foo) return getMultiAdapter(bar, self.request) and bang I have to get a dev egg for the package which implements getMultiAdapter just that I can debug into getMultiAdapter. I don't know how somebody can say that's a good concept. For me as a heave *pdb* user it's defently not. Is there another option wich allows me not to checkout the half of the Zope trunk as dev eggs for serious debugging? short term hack: use eggs. go to your eggs directory and rm all of your pyc files. pdb will then work. long term: yeah, this needs to be fixed. Jim's aware of it. Has to do with how eggs are built. AIUI, fixing it would probably happen in setuptools. Gary ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: Using svn checkout with zc packages
On Monday 30 July 2007 09:59, Jeff Shell wrote: Last time I checked, which I admit has been a while, buildout didn't provide any examples of how to transition into buildout style development. I agree we are totally lacking At the one end we push hard for people to use eggs -- even make the Zope 3 trunk checkout totally useless -- and on the other hand we are providing zero documentation on how to get started. The common answer you will get is: Look at all the SVN packages, there are many examples. I think this is a horrible thing to say. Unfortunately there is a big push behind using egg-based development without taking care that all bases are covered. I think this is because most development is driven by customer requirements these days and not by the academic purity (as people called it) with which we started developing Zope 3. I guess this is a good and a bad thing. Here are some documents that should get you started (in order I would look at them): - zc.buildout presentation slides: http://svn.zope.org/zc.buildout/trunk/doc/tutorial.txt?rev=76281view=auto - z3c.formdemo as an example of a small egg-based application: http://svn.zope.org/z3c.formdemo/trunk/?rev=76281 - PEAK setuptools: http://peak.telecommunity.com/DevCenter/setuptools I hope this helps! Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: AW: [Zope3-Users] Re: Using svn checkout with zc packages
Gary Poster wrote long term: yeah, this needs to be fixed. Jim's aware of it. Has to do with how eggs are built. AIUI, fixing it would probably happen in setuptools. Right, setuptools builds the pycs in a temporary directory and then moves them to the final location. Because the pycs include the full path as of the time they were built, they then point to the wrong place. Gary's suggestion forces them to be rebuilt with correct paths. -- Benji York Senior Software Engineer Zope Corporation ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: AW: [Zope3-Users] Re: Using svn checkout with zc packages
On 30 Jul 2007, at 16:46 , Roger Ineichen wrote: Betreff: Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: Using svn checkout with zc packages [...] I feel like I need a training course or consultancy to move to buildout, which requires time and money that we just don't have. Same belongs to me. I'm sitting here and have to debug code like: def foo(self, foo): bar = self.getBar(foo) return getMultiAdapter(bar, self.request) and bang I have to get a dev egg for the package which implements getMultiAdapter just that I can debug into getMultiAdapter. Martijn and I ran into this issue the other day as well. The quick fix (=deleting the outdated .pyc files) has already been described by Gary and Benji. I've documented this on my blog [1] now so that others will hopefully find it when they Google. [1] http://www.z3lab.org/sections/blogs/philipp-weitershausen/ 2007_07_30_pdb-ing-to-eggs ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: Using svn checkout with zc packages
Jeff Shell wrote: Getting started as eggs is one thing. Moving code that is not in an egg format is another, particularly in a system like CVS which is brain dead about directories. But I think I just need to revisit the CVS manual for this. Normally little or nothing more than giving your code a setup.py is required to eggify it. You can use CVS checkouts to create develop eggs as a transitional step. We're stuck with CVS for now, for better or worse. And my vague understanding of development eggs (which is next to nil) is that they're biased towards SVN. Not that I'm aware of. You should be able to use CVS just fine. -- Benji York Senior Software Engineer Zope Corporation ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: Using svn checkout with zc packages
On 30 Jul 2007, at 17:19 , Stephan Richter wrote: On Monday 30 July 2007 09:59, Jeff Shell wrote: Last time I checked, which I admit has been a while, buildout didn't provide any examples of how to transition into buildout style development. I agree we are totally lacking At the one end we push hard for people to use eggs -- even make the Zope 3 trunk checkout totally useless -- How is it useless? It still works, no? and on the other hand we are providing zero documentation on how to get started. Zero documentation is a bit unfair. zc.buildout has had a README.txt and a CheeseShop homepage for a long time ( half a year). There are dozens of zc.* and z3c.* packages in svn.zope.org for which the same doesn't hold true. The README.txt may have been spartan in the beginning, but even the version in the half-year old 1.0.0b17 release (the oldest one available on the CheeseShop) explains how to * install an egg and an interpreter launcher that has that egg on its sys.path * work with a development egg Apart from a testrunner, this is usually everything you need to know to get started with simple packages. Of course you need to know about eggs, but those are well-documented, too (heck, even in my book). Jim also wrote a tutorial (you link to it below). Admittedly it's not very visible. We should change that. You, I and the others who know about it already are all equally guilty of not having spoken up and promoted it so far. Baiju M, by the way, has written two blog posts with code examples on how to deploy a Zope 3 web application from eggs and how to make life easier with zc.buildout [1,2]. [1] http://baijum81.livejournal.com/19795.html [2] http://baijum81.livejournal.com/20551.html So, in all fairness, there's stuff out there (apart from the numerous packages that are in svn.zope.org and that can serve as good examples). Though I agree it needs to be consolidated a bit, brushed up and publicized. Here are some documents that should get you started (in order I would look at them): - zc.buildout presentation slides: http://svn.zope.org/zc.buildout/trunk/doc/tutorial.txt? rev=76281view=auto - z3c.formdemo as an example of a small egg-based application: http://svn.zope.org/z3c.formdemo/trunk/?rev=76281 - PEAK setuptools: http://peak.telecommunity.com/DevCenter/setuptools I hope this helps! ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Re: Using svn checkout with zc packages
Jeff Shell wrote: On 7/30/07, Stephan Richter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Monday 30 July 2007 09:59, Jeff Shell wrote: Last time I checked, which I admit has been a while, buildout didn't provide any examples of how to transition into buildout style development. I agree we are totally lacking At the one end we push hard for people to use eggs -- even make the Zope 3 trunk checkout totally useless -- and on the other hand we are providing zero documentation on how to get started. Getting started as eggs is one thing. Moving code that is not in an egg format is another, particularly in a system like CVS which is brain dead about directories. But I think I just need to revisit the CVS manual for this. I don't think you really need to move anything. Just add a setup.py to your package. THis may be a bit unusual (usually the setup.py lives in the parent folder, next to the package, or even higher if you have a 'src' directory), but having it in the package should work, too. We're stuck with CVS for now, for better or worse. And my vague understanding of development eggs (which is next to nil) is that they're biased towards SVN. With good reason, I guess, since SVN changeset numbers apply to whole checkouts versus CVS's individual file versioning. But I may be wrong about this. You're confusing * an egg that is downloaded not from a tarball but by checking out some svn repository URL (I find this a weird feature of setuptools), and * a development egg which is just a package somewhere in your development sandbox that has a setup.py. This package gets a symlink somewhere in site-packages so that setuptools recognizes it as an egg, but the source stays wherever you want to work on it. You can maintain the source in CVS, svn, bzr, ... -- http://worldcookery.com -- Professional Zope documentation and training ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: Using svn checkout with zc packages
Am Montag, 30. Juli 2007 schrieb Stephan Richter: On Monday 30 July 2007 09:59, Jeff Shell wrote: Last time I checked, which I admit has been a while, buildout didn't provide any examples of how to transition into buildout style development. I agree we are totally lacking At the one end we push hard for people to use eggs -- even make the Zope 3 trunk checkout totally useless -- and on the other hand we are providing zero documentation on how to get started. The common answer you will get is: Look at all the SVN packages, there are many examples. I think this is a horrible thing to say. Unfortunately there is a big push behind using egg-based development without taking care that all bases are covered. I think this is because most development is driven by customer requirements these days and not by the academic purity (as people called it) with which we started developing Zope 3. I guess this is a good and a bad thing. Here are some documents that should get you started (in order I would look at them): - zc.buildout presentation slides: http://svn.zope.org/zc.buildout/trunk/doc/tutorial.txt?rev=76281view=auto Here is a PDF version of the slides: http://www.zope.de/redaktion/dzug/tagung/potsdam-2007/folien/introduction-to-zc-buildout.pdf/download Florian ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: Using svn checkout with zc packages
On 30 Jul 2007, at 19:14 , Florian Lindner wrote: Am Sonntag, 29. Juli 2007 schrieb Philipp von Weitershausen: On 29 Jul 2007, at 21:06 , Florian Lindner wrote: Am Mittwoch, 25. Juli 2007 schrieb Philipp von Weitershausen: Florian Lindner wrote: Hello, I use a Zope3 svn checkout for developement. What is the best way to make this working with the zc packages? I don't want to easy_install the entire Zope checkout but I also want my code to work with easy_install'ed versions of these packages. (don't want to change import statements and so on...) My favorite way would be to just do a svn checkout of the zc packages too but it seems to me that it won't work this way (or am I missing something?) Of course you can get a checkout of any package you wish from svn.zope.org, including the zc.* packages. However, they'll likely have dependencies which you will have to resolve as well. Some might also define entry points which means they really want to be installed as eggs. Why do you use checkouts? Do you actually change the packages while you're developing with them? Have you looked at zc.buildout? Checkout the tutorial [1]. Also, pretty much any zope.* or zc.* package's sandbox is set up using buildout these days, providing you with lots of examples. I'm fine with easy_install for installing Zope3 and the z3c packages but at this time I don't want to use it for my own projects. But when I install Zope3 (for example by easy_install zope.component) I don't find any mkzopeinstance. I know about zopeproject but that creates an egg what I don't want. How can I get mkzopeinstance with easy_install? I haven't found anything in PyPi. It seems that you you want to install Zope 3 from eggs but don't want your own projects to be eggs (hence you reject zopeproject). I don't quite see the point of that reasoning. The whole idea of Zope being available in egg form is that we can use egg machinery (deployment, dependency management, etc.) for your own projects. Anyway, mkzopeinstance isn't available when you install Zope 3 from eggs because it's not egg-aware. It's completely geared towards the full tree installation (from tarball or checkout). And frankly, as I pointed out in the paragraph above, it doesn't make that much sense in an egg-centric world anyway. I suggest zopeproject or the zc.buildout recipes from zc.zope3recipes as alternatives. Hi! What I want is: - have an runnable Zope3. I don't care if it is an SVN checkout, a released version or as an egg Then why don't you get a checkout if the other stuff troubles you so much? In my very first response to you I wrote: Of course you can get a checkout of any package you wish from svn.zope.org, including the zc.* packages. However, they'll likely have dependencies which you will have to resolve as well. I think those a very clear instructions: get the package you want from subversion and also get its dependencies so that it works. What's the problem? - be able to use the z3c packages - don't need to work in a new build architecture It seems that these requirements are diametrically opposed. I suppose working in the zc.buildout appears to be the least evil (or even a good at the end) in your eyes, isn't it? I'm not sure what working in the zc.buildout is supposed to mean. I don't consider zc.buildout evil. Not totally at least :). ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: Using svn checkout with zc packages
Am 30.07.2007 um 19:37 schrieb Philipp von Weitershausen: I'm not sure what working in the zc.buildout is supposed to mean. I don't consider zc.buildout evil. Not totally at least :). I benefit from zc.buildout in two ways for my zope projects since i figured it out: - every-time-and-every-place reproducable development environments - only install what is really necessary But sometimes: - I am bothered by that .installed.cfg (I always stumble over it, because it's hidden). - Someone already mentioned the .pyc-file misery. - And it's not easy to find the right order for including the .zcml-files in larger projects. Maybe there is a recommended order somewhere which I didn't recognize until now. I thought about extracting it from the DEPENDENCIES.cfg and import-statements. Altogether it is really worth to dive into zc.buildout (but you should take a deep breath ;-) ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
