Quoting Carlos Amengual ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
> Justin Wells wrote:
> >
> > I think if you view WebMacro is a style sheet language which operates
> > on regular Java objects, we're getting close.
> >
> > Consider that XML can be represented with a Java API and you'll see
> > where I am headed.
>
> You are mixing different things. I do want to be able to do document
> structure management from a programming language (Java), but not
> styling.
Right. But in my experience the line is very blurry. Styling is often
discussed as though it were just fonts and colours; but usually it
winds up being a bit more.
If you have a document with a bunch of subsections, you often want to
generate a table of contents at the top, by extracting the title from
each subsection. Not hard to do, but you have moved into the
transformation world--isn't deciding where to put the table of
contents really a presentation issue?
You might even want to change the order of the information--pulling
out key data from within the document to create an executive summary.
Again, despite it being a transformation, I think it's still
a look and feel issue.
I want to be able to do this kind of styling up frint, in one place. I
am not talking about radical changes to the structure or organization
of the document; but it goes beyond fonts and colours.
> > However, 90% of servlets are not document centric.
>
> 90% of servlets involve simple things that do not require having a macro
> or script language put at the document.
I still think you're missing the point here. WebMacro script is not some
complex language; and I can't think of a useful servlet so simple that
it isn't simpler to work with a template. I can think of complicated
document processing applications where something like ECS would be better;
but not things that are so simple that they justify the hack of mixing
HTML and Java control code.
The advantage of being able to let my customers customize is, to me, minor
compared to the cleanliness and attitude shifts that go along with a
template approach. Even the simplest application can grow, feature by
feature, into something compex. Unless you embrace change from the
outset, as your basic attitude, you will wind up adding hacks on top of
hacks. A template approach encourages you to make frequent changes, large
or small, by making it easy and natural.
> This is the problem that I mentioned. I do not pretend that there is a
> global solution for everything. But if I have to live with XML and style
> sheets (it seems we all will), I would like to have a simple way for
> designers to work with.
>
> Haven't really thought about it, but I have a quick suggestion for such
> an application. Imagine an IDE where you have an XML document,
> admittedly with a default style sheet layout. You click on a certain
> tag-associated structure and then a toolbar with several possible "style
> controls" get active. You click one and then edit the properties. You
> end with a GUI-created style-sheet, much as when you end with a windows
> resource file with the VC++ GUI editor.
SoftQuad's SGML browser, Panorama, used to work this way. It's great
for simple styling, but as I said above, you freequently want to do
more. Unless your tool provides the extra power, you will wind up
doing unnecessary extra transformations, or hacking your application,
to get the stylistic appearance you want.
I intend WebMacro to become an XML styling language eventually. That
will have to wait until after 1.0 though, as thee are more pressing
bread-and-butter issues to deal with first.
> Your opinion, Justin ?
I certainly have no shortage of opinions :-)
Justin
WebMacro Servlet Framework
http://webmacro.org
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