On Thu, 29 Aug 2019 at 9:04 am, Owen DeLong <o...@delong.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Aug 28, 2019, at 13:44 , Aftab Siddiqui <aftab.siddi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Javed,
>
> On Thu, 29 Aug 2019 at 6:33 am, Javed Khan <javedkha...@outlook.com>
> wrote:
>
>> We may think we are living in a perfect world but we are not.
>>
>
> of course
>
> With this proposal I'm more worried about the network downtime as managing
>> an AS0 ROA by an RIR may be prone to errors as we all do regardless if its
>> a manual or automated solution.
>>
>
> Would you like to explain how AS0 ROA can create network downtime?
>
>
> One possible way I can think of (I’m sure there are others)…
>
> ISP Q is issued 2001:db8::/32 by APNIC.
>
> ISP Q does not participate in RPKI and does not create ROAs.
>
> APNIC accidentally issues an incorrect AS 0 ROA for 2001:db8:8000::/33,
> taking down some fraction (up to half) of ISP Q’s customers and possibly
> their infrastructure.
>

Since there is no AS0 ROA today so let’s focus on your later example.


>
> Operators network downtime doesn't have any effect on APNIC business as
>> they can simply say we stuffed up and fixing it.
>>
>> But think about those networks facing the downtime and their business
>> obligations to their customers, who will bear this liability. Sure these
>> operators can drag APNIC to the courts but that costs money that they
>> cannot afford but accept the stuff ups.
>>
>
> Still you don’t understand how AS0 ROA works and what this policy is
> trying to address. If a network operator is using a Bogon (unallocated
> address space) then trust me mate that network has no chance defending that
> case in any court. In fact APNIC should be dragging these network operators
> to court.
>
>
> No, he understands (or at least I don’t see anything to say he doesn’t.
> However, he and I also understand that we don’t live in a perfect world and
> we’re talking about what happens when something goes wrong.
>
> Right now, say APNIC accidentally deletes the above registration from the
> database… Nothing super bad happens. Some possibility that his RDNS stops
> working, but his packets still get routed. Some of his RDNS continues to
> function for a while due to caching, so the damage is potentially
> significant, but not total.
>

Many IXes filtering on valid route objects will stop accepting their
prefixes. Many upstreams also filtering on route objects will stop
accepting the prefix. Total outage.

>
> OTOH, if APNIC accidentally deletes the registration and issues an AS0 ROA
> for the entire netback, then you’re (potentially) talking about near total
> catastrophic routing failure for this ISP and all of his customers.
>

Let’s assume they accidentally delete the registration for any reason there
are cooling off periods in place which goes up to 60 days or we can put
measures in place through policy to have decent cooking off periods. Also
let’s talk about stats, how many times how many RIRs have deleted their
members by mistake? Do you have any case?


>
>
>> So I am not in favor of asking the RIR to create AS0 ROA.
>>
>
> Thats absolutely fine we can agree to disagree but let’s have a clear
> understanding of the policy.
>
>
> What makes you think he does not understand the policy?
>

Because the policy only addresses the bogon, how an address space becomes a
bogon is APNIC operating procedure. Do you see the problem of understanding
here?

Also it’s seems you are fine with people advertising bogons just because
fixing it might make one/two people unhappy.


> Owen
>
>
>
>> J Khan
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* Aftab Siddiqui <aftab.siddi...@gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 27 August 2019 6:16 PM
>> *To:* Owen DeLong <o...@delong.com>
>> *Cc:* Javed Khan <javedkha...@outlook.com>; Policy SIG <
>> sig-pol...@apnic.net>; Sumon Ahmed Sabir <sasa...@gmail.com>
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [sig-policy] prop-132-v002: AS0 for Bogons
>>
>> Hi Owen,
>>
>>
>> I don’t think you actually addressed his concern…
>>
>>
>> Well, let me try again then :)
>>
>>
>> On Aug 26, 2019, at 17:17 , Aftab Siddiqui <aftab.siddi...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Javed,
>> I understand your concern, let me try to explain.
>>
>> AS-0 ROA is an attestation by the holder of a prefix that the prefix
>> described in the ROA, and any more specific prefix, should not be used in a
>> routing context. The route validation consider a "valid" outcome if "ANY"
>> ROA matches the address prefix and origin AS, even if other valid ROAs
>> would provide an "invalid" validation outcome if used in isolation.  Since,
>> its not possible to generate a prefix with AS-0 there fore it is not
>> possible that valid ROA will impact the routing of a prefix even if there
>> is an AS-0 ROA for that prefix. Also, AS 0 ROA has a lower relative
>> preference than any other ROA that has a routable AS.
>>
>>
>> Presumably, APNIC would withdraw/invalidate any other ROA for the prefix
>> (or its subordinates) at or before the time when they would issue an AS-0
>> ROA.
>>
>> Revoking the previously valid ROAs moves the prefix from VALIDATED/GOOD
>> to UNVALIDATED/UNKNOWN status in any route validator. This would not affect
>> the routing table in most cases since there won’t be a validated route (in
>> this instance) to supersede the UNVALIDATED/UNKNOWN route which was
>> previously VALIDATED/GOOD.
>>
>> Issuing the AS-0 ROA would subsequently move the prefix from
>> VALIDATED/GOOD or UNVALIDATED/UNKNOWN status to INVALID/KNOWN status, thus
>> causing most validating routers to discard the route.
>>
>>
>> There are only few reasons why APNIC would remove a valid ROA from
>> member's account.
>> - Due to Non-payment and APNIC reclaiming the resources and closing the
>> account
>> - Returned address space by the member for any reason and the space
>> becomes part of free pool.
>>
>> In either case there are some cooling off period as I shared in previous
>> email which goes up to 60 days before APNIC can mark those resources as
>> free/available. IMO, there is absolutely no reason to have those ROAs in
>> place but again this is an operational issue and this policy is not dealing
>> with it. But can you suggest any reason when those ROAs should not be
>> removed?
>>
>> For Example,
>> - APNIC creates AS-0 ROA for 103.8.194.0/24 (This is an unallocated
>> prefix announced AS135754, a bogon).
>> - If I'm doing ROV then this prefix (103.8.194.0/24) will become invalid
>> for me because it doesn't have a valid ROA. Anyone not doing ROV or any
>> other form of bogon filtering will still accept this prefix and keep on
>> treating it as normal.
>> - Now, APNIC delegates this prefix to someone else after some time
>> (remember the AS-0 ROA still exist). That someone is AS139038 (myself).
>> - Because this prefix is now under my administration I can create ROA
>> with my own ASN i.e. AS139038
>> - Before delegating the prefix to me APNIC should have delete that AS-0
>> ROA but lets assume they forgot to do so or some technical glitch happened
>> and the AS-0 ROA still exist for this prefix even after delegating it to me
>> - Since I have created a ROA with my ASN i.e. AS139038 then the
>> validators will mark the prefix originating from my ASN as valid even
>> though there is an AS-0 ROA for that prefix.
>>
>>
>> Different example:
>>
>> APNIC issues 2001:db8:feed::/48 to XYZ Corp. who creates a ROA for
>> AS65551.
>> If you’re doing ROV, then this prefix 2001:db8:feed::/48 is validated
>> assuming you receive the route with an AS PATh that matches "* 65551 $”.
>> Subsequently, XYZ Corp forgets to pay their APNIC invoice and APNIC
>> revokes the space.
>> Under current policy, APNIC Simply deletes the ROA and anyone doing ROV
>> no longer sees 2001:db8:feed::/48 as valid, but they don’t see it as
>> invalid. It moves to unknown.
>> In the current (and foreseeable future) world, and unknown route is
>> probably still going to be accepted by the vast majority of peers, so this
>> has little effect on routing.
>> Under the proposed policy, at some point, APNIC issues a new ROA for
>> 2001:db8:feed::/48 tied to AS0.
>> This has two effects that are not present in the current situation:
>> 1. The route with origin AS6551 is no tagged as “Invalid” — There is no
>> matching VALID ROA since they were all revoked by the RIR.
>> 2. Most peers doing ROV will likely drop the prefix. While unknown
>> prefixes are not likely dropped, known invalid prefixes are a different
>> matter and
>> even though some ROV operators will not drop them today, more and more
>> will sooner rather than later.
>>
>> This means that the RIR now has much greater direct power over
>> influencing routing decisions than in the pre-RPKI/ROV days.
>>
>>
>> This policy is addressing only one thing "Control Bogon Announcements".
>> If the XYZ Corp hasn't paid the due fees (even after several reminders
>> which are in place by the RIR and after the cooling off period as per the
>> operational practice of RIR) then XYZ Corp doesn't have the right to use
>> 2001:db8:feed::/48 and APNIC will mark those resources as free/available.
>> The policy deals with the resources part of free/available pool, how they
>> become part of that pool is not part of this policy and its an operational
>> issue.
>>
>> Today, a terminated member can keep on using the resources without any
>> consequences unless APNIC reach out to them (which doesn't work at times)
>> or their upstream and tell them to stop advertising it.
>>
>>
>> I’m not saying whether this is good or bad (who am I to judge at this
>> point), but I am saying it’s a valid concern and a huge potential
>> operational consequence
>> of this proposed policy.
>>
>>
>> I'm still unable to see that as a concern, XYZ Corp has to pay the fees
>> to use those resources. Its part of the membership agreement they signed
>>
>> "3.2 The Member must: Promptly pay all fees and charges due to the
>> Company in accordance with the Fee Schedule"
>>
>> But again this is not part of the policy.
>>
>>
>>
>> You can also check prefix 103.114.191.0/24 via any validator you are
>> running which has both AS-0 ROA (created by them) and also a ROA with their
>> routable ASN (AS397702). Many operators have created AS-0 ROAs along side
>> the ROA with their own routable ASN.
>>
>>
>> Yes, but this doesn’t cover the case Javed expressed concern about.
>>
>> I hope this helps answer you concern. Please let me know if you still
>> have any question.
>>
>>
>> Even if Javed is somehow satisfied with your answer, I think that we need
>> a detailed explanation from staff how this policy would be implemented and
>> what measures would be taken to avoid the erroneous (and potentially
>> disastrous) combination of revocation of all previous ROAs and issuance of
>> an AS-0 ROA.
>>
>>
>> The policy doesn't talk about revocation of resources and subsequent ROAs
>> associated with it and its mechanism. Fee schedule, Revocation and
>> membership termination/cancelation is part of the membership agreement and
>> how APNIC executes the revocation is the operational issue of the APNIC.
>>
>> Also, a clear description of the timelines for how
>> non-payment/cancellation would be handled in terms of when ROAs would be
>> revoked
>> and when the AS-0 ROA would be issued for a reclaimed block in relation
>> to the revocation of previous ROAs and in relation to the invoice due date.
>>
>> I hope that’s a clear enough expression.
>>
>>
>> I will leave that for APNIC to respond and its a fair enough concern that
>> a clarity is needed.
>>
>>
>>
>> That is my current question about this proposal. I am sure Javed will
>> speak up if it doesn’t also reflect his question/concerns.
>>
>>
>> I once again tried to answer your questions and happy to hear from Javed
>> as well :)
>>
>>
>>
>> Owen
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Aftab A. Siddiqui
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 12:29 AM Javed Khan <javedkha...@outlook.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> For now, I'm neither for or against this proposal. I think the intention
>> of the author is good but the implementation is not as easy as is explained
>> in the proposal. QoS is very crucial for ISPs to sustain the fierce market
>> competition and if APNIC fails to timely update the AS0 ROAs, this will
>> effect the service delivery and/or network downtime.
>>
>> I request APNIC to provide a detailed review of this proposal from a
>> service and legal perspective so the community can better understand the
>> implementation, if this proposal reaches consensus.
>>
>>
>> Kind regards
>> Javed Khan
>> MSCE and CCSP
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* sig-policy-boun...@lists.apnic.net <
>> sig-policy-boun...@lists.apnic.net> on behalf of David Farmer <
>> far...@umn.edu>
>> *Sent:* Friday, 23 August 2019 10:48 AM
>> *To:* Aftab Siddiqui <aftab.siddi...@gmail.com>
>> *Cc:* Sumon Ahmed Sabir <sasa...@gmail.com>; Policy SIG <
>> sig-pol...@apnic.net>
>> *Subject:* Re: [sig-policy] prop-132-v002: AS0 for Bogons
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 9:04 PM Aftab Siddiqui <aftab.siddi...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi David,
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 6:36 AM David Farmer <far...@umn.edu> wrote:
>>
>> The problem statement says;
>>
>> Bogons are defined in RFC3871, A "Bogon" (plural: "bogons") is a packet
>> with an IP source address in an address block not yet allocated by IANA
>> or the Regional Internet Registries (ARIN, RIPE NCC, APNIC, AFRINIC and
>> LACNIC)...
>>
>>
>> So that raises a question, what about resources that are deregisterd
>> because they are returned, revoked, or otherwise reclaimed, for any of a
>> myriad of reasons, including non-payment of fees? Do they become Bogons
>> with AS0 ROAs the moment they are deregistered? Later, if so when? What if
>> there is a ROA for them in the system? Are the ROAs removed, if so when?
>>
>>
>> I also had some concerns about revoked and/or reclaimed space and closed
>> account due to non payment so I asked Secretariat in advance and here is
>> the response.
>> =======
>> APNIC membership account is classified as closed when its status is
>> flagged as ‘closed’ in APNIC’s internal system.
>>
>> 30 days - payment period upon issuance of invoice, if no payment is
>> received within this period member receives expiry notice and the account
>> status becomes 'suspended'
>> After 15 days – member receives email notification for closure giving
>> them another 15 days to pay
>> After 15 days – the status of the account becomes 'closed' and all
>> delegated resources under the account are reclaimed
>>
>> All in all members have 60 days period to pay before the status of the
>> account becomes ‘closed’.
>> =======
>>
>> As long as the account is suspended APNIC doesn't consider those
>> resources as free/available/reclaimed and because they are not part of
>> unallocated pool thats why no need to create AS0 ROAs for such resources.
>> AS0 ROAs will be created once APNIC mark those resources available and
>> remove them from their delegation record. Now, the second issue is if there
>> is a ROA for them in the system. Because AS 0 ROA has a lower relative
>> preference than any other ROA that has a routable AS then APNIC has to
>> somehow delete the existing ROA from the system. Its easy if the member
>> account is closed and all resources are reclaimed. But I leave this to
>> APNIC to decide how they are going to make that happen.
>>
>>
>> Currently, when the account is closed nothing actively makes the
>> resources unusable, accept for if you were also changing providers during
>> this timeframe, then when the new provider checks the resources they will
>> be unregistered. But most providers don't recheck the registration of
>> resources very often, if ever, other than at the time of setup of service.
>>
>> With this proposal at some point, the resource will effectively become
>> unusable with nonpayment, when the AS0 ROA is created, and any ROAs are
>> removed, I'm fine with this, but it should be called out as a consequence
>> of the proposal, so no one can say they didn't realize that is a
>> consequence of the proposal.
>>
>> This proposal changes the consequences for nonpayment, that should be
>> made clear in the proposal one way or another.
>>
>> Also as Owen noted the RIRs frequently have a hold period after the
>> account is closed, resource are usually held for some period after account
>> closure and before they are reissued to a new user.
>>
>>
>> Personally I think they should be deregistered for some amount of time
>> before the becoming Bogons and have an AS0 ROA created them, also for the
>> AS0 ROA to be effective any ROAs for these deregistered resources need to
>> be removed as well.
>>
>>
>> I would propose something like the following;
>>
>>    1. Upon de-reregistration any existing ROAs are removed from RPKI
>>    2. 30 days after de-registraion, AS0 ROAs are created except for
>>    non-payment fees
>>    3. 90 days after de-registraion, AS0 ROAs are created in the case of
>>    non-payment fees
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>>
>> Thanks for these suggestions but do you think the existing waiting period
>> as outlined above in APNIC's response is good enough to mark them as
>> free/unallocated? or you think additional cooling-off window should be
>> added after the account is closed? How about 30 days after de-registration
>> whether it was closed due to non-payment or otherwise.
>>
>>
>> They were just suggestions, but I will note that you only discussed the
>> timing for nonpayment, resources can be returned voluntarily or they can be
>> revoked for cause, this is rare but it does happen and the timing
>> assoicated with these instances should be understood as well.
>>
>> Also, I was suggesting the AS0 ROAs should not created immediately on
>> account closure but some period of time after that,
>>
>> Right now there seems to be two phases, suspension and account closure,
>> I'm proposing a third phase resource deactivation, the creation of the AS0
>> ROAs. I suppose account closure and resource deactivation can occur
>> simultaneously, I think they should be separate as an escalating series of
>> events.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 12:52 AM Sumon Ahmed Sabir <sasa...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Dear SIG members
>>
>> A new version of the proposal "prop-132: AS0 for Bogons"
>> has been sent to the Policy SIG for review.
>>
>> Information about earlier versions is available from:
>> http://www.apnic.net/policy/proposals/prop-132
>>
>> You are encouraged to express your views on the proposal:
>>
>>   - Do you support or oppose the proposal?
>>   - Is there anything in the proposal that is not clear?
>>   - What changes could be made to this proposal to make it more
>> effective?
>>
>> Please find the text of the proposal below.
>>
>> Kind Regards,
>>
>> Sumon, Bertrand, Ching-Heng
>> APNIC Policy SIG Chairs
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> prop-132-v002: AS0 for Bogons
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Proposer: Aftab Siddiqui
>>            aftab.siddi...@gmail.com
>>
>>
>> 1. Problem statement
>> --------------------
>> Bogons are defined in RFC3871, A "Bogon" (plural: "bogons") is a packet
>> with an IP source address in an address block not yet allocated by IANA
>> or the Regional Internet Registries (ARIN, RIPE NCC, APNIC, AFRINIC and
>> LACNIC) as well as all addresses reserved for private or special use by
>> RFCs.  See [RFC3330] and [RFC1918].
>>
>> As of now, there are 287 IPv4 bogons and 73 IPv6 bogons in the global
>> routing
>> table. In the past, several attempts have been made to filter out such
>> bogons
>> through various methods such as static filters and updating them
>> occasionally
>> but it is hard to keep an up to date filters, TeamCymru and CAIDA
>> provides full
>> bogon list in text format to update such filters. TeamCymru also
>> provides bogon
>> BGP feed where they send all the bogons via a BGP session which then can
>> be
>> discarded automatically. Beside all these attempts the issue of Bogon
>> Advertisement
>> hasn't be resolved so far.
>>
>>
>> 2. Objective of policy change
>> -----------------------------
>> The purpose of creating AS0 (zero) ROAs for unallocated address space by
>> APNIC
>> is to resolve the issue of Bogon announcement. When APNIC issues an AS0
>> ROA for
>> unallocated address space under APNIC’s administration then it will be
>> marked as
>> “Invalid” if someone tries to advertise the same address space.
>>
>>
>> Currently, in the absence of any ROA, these bogons are marked as
>> “NotFound”. Since
>> many operators have implemented ROV and either planning or already
>> discarding “Invalid”
>> then all the AS0 ROAs which APNIC will create for unallocated address
>> space will be
>> discarded as well.
>>
>> 3. Situation in other regions
>> -----------------------------
>> No such policy in any region at the moment.
>>
>>
>> 4. Proposed policy solution
>> ---------------------------
>> APNIC will create AS0(zero) ROAs for all the unallocated address space
>> (IPv4 and IPv6)
>> for which APNIC is the current administrator. Any resource holder (APNIC
>> member) can
>> create AS0 (zero) ROAs for the resources they have under their
>> account/administration.
>>
>>
>> A ROA is a positive attestation that a prefix holder has authorised an
>> AS to originate a
>> route for this prefix whereas, a ROA for the same prefixes with AS0
>> (zero) origin shows
>> negative intent from the resource holder that they don't want to
>> advertise the prefix(es)
>> at this point but they are the rightful custodian.
>>
>>
>> Only APNIC has the authority to create ROAs for address space not yet
>> allocated to the members
>> and only APNIC can issue AS0 (zero) ROAs. Once they ROA is issued and
>> APNIC wants to allocate
>> the address space to its member, simply they can revoke the ROA and
>> delegate the address space
>> to members. (this proposal doesn't formulate operational process).
>>
>> 5. Advantages / Disadvantages
>> -----------------------------
>> Advantages:
>> Those implementing ROV globally and discarding the invalids will be able
>> to discard bogons from
>> APNIC region automatically.
>>
>> Disadvantages:
>> No apparent disadvantage
>>
>> 6. Impact on resource holders
>> -----------------------------
>> No impact to APNIC or respective NIR resource holders not implementing
>> ROV. Those implementing ROV
>> and discarding the invalids will not see any bogons in their routing
>> table.
>>
>>
>> 7. References
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>> RFC6483 - https://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc6483.txt
>> RFC6491 - https://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc6491.txt
>> RFC7607 - https://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc7607.txt
>> _______________________________________________
>> *              sig-policy:  APNIC SIG on resource management policy
>>      *
>> _______________________________________________
>> sig-policy mailing list
>> sig-policy@lists.apnic.net
>> https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ===============================================
>> David Farmer               Email:far...@umn.edu
>> Networking & Telecommunication Services
>> Office of Information Technology
>> University of Minnesota
>> 2218 University Ave SE
>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/2218+University+Ave+SE?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>       Phone: 612-626-0815
>> Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029   Cell: 612-812-9952
>> ===============================================
>> *              sig-policy:  APNIC SIG on resource management policy
>>      *
>> _______________________________________________
>> sig-policy mailing list
>> sig-policy@lists.apnic.net
>> https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ===============================================
>> David Farmer               Email:far...@umn.edu
>> Networking & Telecommunication Services
>> Office of Information Technology
>> University of Minnesota
>> 2218 University Ave SE
>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/2218+University+Ave+SE?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>       Phone: 612-626-0815
>> Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029   Cell: 612-812-9952
>> ===============================================
>>
>> *              sig-policy:  APNIC SIG on resource management policy
>>           *
>> _______________________________________________
>> sig-policy mailing list
>> sig-policy@lists.apnic.net
>> https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
>>
>>
>>
>> --
> Regards,
>
> Aftab A. Siddiqui
>
>
> --
Regards,

Aftab A. Siddiqui
*              sig-policy:  APNIC SIG on resource management policy           *
_______________________________________________
sig-policy mailing list
sig-policy@lists.apnic.net
https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy

Reply via email to