Hey Wayne,
I got a strange message, and I wondered if you sent it.
( or caused it to happen ) I think you could do it. <grin>
Yep - I started to actually send a message impersonating you to *this*
list to demonstrate my point, but decided to just send a message that I
knew would generate a bounce to *you* (since it appeared to be 'from'
you, but sent to a list that you weren't subscribed to) - this bounce
being the result of the well designed smtp protocol in action... ;)
Hope you aren't offended/angry - no harm intended...
I just set up a personality to use Fugitt.com mail server.
Fugitt.com is not a mail server, it is a TLD (top level domain).
What would you call it ?
As I said - a TLD (top level domain)...
mail.fugitt.com .........
mail.fugitt.com != (does not equal) fugitt.com
mail.fugitt.com - in your case - is an MX record - or it could be a
subdomain...
http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/S/subdomain.html.
I have talked to these ISP's and they will tell me, I cannot send to
another mail server.
Again - you don't send *to* any particular server - you *relay*/send
*through* - *via* - some smtp server.
the only way any ISP can prevent you from using other smtp servers is to
block *both* port 25 *and* port 587. I have never heard of one that
blocked port 587, but that doesn't mean there isn't one or more
numbskull's out there that do...
Fact is many still allow me to send messages to another mail
server.
Maybe it is your wording...
Maybe so, but it is true, nevertheless.
I doubt it - ask them if they block port 587 (aka the 'submission' port)...
Again - the only way is if they blocked *both* ports - and even then,
you could set up an smtp server running on any one of thousands of ports
that they *don't* block (*no* ISP blocks all ports) and access it that way.
Yes, I understand that. I have used on POP server and a different
SMTP server for the same personality.
Yes, but my point is that most smtp servers will only relay mail that
are sent from a 'personality' that belongs to their domain.
Meaning, you cannot set up a 'personality' with a return email address
of [email protected], and send an email using gmails server, even if the smtp
server 'personality' you have set up has the correct username and password.
I do believe that Gmail *only* allows authenticated relaying
through port 587, but it is quite common for services like this to
allow you to use either (25 or 587).
I know some of the ports, but not all, There are 64,000 or so are
they not ? For the ones that don't know, these are virtual ports.
In the computer world, *everything* is 'virtual'. But the rest are
irrelevant. Certain ports have well defined functions. Port 25 is the
smtp port. Port 587 is the *alternate* smtp 'submission' port. Port 110
is the POP3 port. 143 is the IMAP
See a full list here (makes for very boring reading):
http://www.iana.org/assignments/port-numbers
Knowledgeable hackers can combine them in a fashion to access remote
computers, unless they are specifically blocked.
They don't 'combine' them - they 'exploit' them - but only if they are
'open'.
This is why all modern Cable/DSL modems come with a firewall that blocks
*all* inbound ports.
Often I think Microsoft over done many things. It tool some fools to
try to run a battle ship on Microsoft software. I forget how many
times it had to be towed back to the dock.
Windows can be secured very easily, if you know what you are doing - but
I agree that, out of the box, it is very insecure, and a huge part of
the problem...
which makes me inclined to believe that we are *not* >>
talking about them leaving port 25 open.
I did not say we were, did I ?
Not precisely - but your words were imprecise, requiring me to try to
figure out exactly what you meant by "... some bogus ISP's will allow
you to SEND out only on their mail server." This can easily be read to
mean that 'some bogus ISPs block port 25'...
Packets are transmitted via protocols (ie, TCP/IP, SMTP, IMAP, POP,
etc), over ports. Both protocols *and* ports can be individually
blocked, thus preventing 'packets' from being sent over that particular
protocol or port.
A protocol is software, not hardware. There is nothing magic going
on.
Not quite... a protocol is a *written standard*. Software can be written
to *implement* protocols, but the protocol itself is not 'software'.
Packets must be transmitted by some hardware it seems to me.
Transmission of packets requires a lot of things, hardware being one.
Still, some ISP's are intentionally set up to BLOCK, ( not pass the
packets ) to another SMTP server.
Right - some ISPs block port 25 (which is a *good* thing, but you said
it was bogus).
As you said, they have good reasons, but I wonder how the others
handle the protection.
They don't - thats why I said they are part of the [spam] *problem*.
in use, as one of their prime targets to block is botnets, and
one of the primary indications of a compromised PC is if it is a
home pc - ie, using a dynamically allocated IP address belonging
to their ISP, which is what all DSL/Cable subscribers are using.
Most home users know near zero about security so I would agree.
? Not sure of your point - whether or not you use a dynamic IP on a home
network has nothing to do with one's level of knowledge of computer
security...
Several years back, I set up a server in the back room at an
industrial site. I got free high speed access for some time, and
never had any problems. Likely there are 100's more hackers now.
Curious - when you say 'free high speed access', I'm assuming that you
mean you were stealing someone else's unsecured Wi-Fi? ;) This is indeed
a big problem - although most new routers are coming with auto-setup
programs that steps people through setting them up fairly securely (as
long as they choose a non-dictionary password).
By the way - if that is what you were doing, be aware it is illegal now...
Some ISP's allow these to pass thru and others don't. Is that
what you are addressing ?
Yes - any ISP that allows this (does not block port 25 except for
their own smtp server) is part of the spam PROBLEM...
Again, the ones that do have been in business 20 years or more. I
mentioned they must solve the problem in some other way.
The only other way would be to monitor everyone's usage and block them
when they use too much bandwidth... which is extremely problematic and
unreliable, and totally unnecessary, when all you have to do is block
port 25.
so what is an SMTP server if not a mail server? To most of us, an
SMTP is as close as we will ever come to a "Mail server".
'Mail' server is a generic term. There are SMTP servers, POP servers,
IMAP servers - all are 'mail' servers'.
An smtp server is used to relay email. There are different ways they can
be used - as simple relays, as outbound only, inbound only, or highly
specialized transports.
An IMAP (or POP3) server is used to provide access to mail that has been
delivered to its ultimate destination.
You are advanced in this area, and I am just a country boy that has
never been to school.
I hope you aren't taking offense - none is intended... I just like
clarity - and you pushed one of my buttons (suggesting that any ISP that
blocked port 25 was 'bogus', when in fact the opposite is true)... ;)
I did build and sell half a million dollars worth of computers in
1997 including servers that cost 40 to 50 grand. The operating system
cost 25 grand, so I learned a little from the school of hard knocks.
But I still do not know what a mail server really is, ....... it
appears/
I realize my words and terms are different, so you could tell me what
a SMTP server is and what a Mail server really is ? I realize that
an SMTP server is software and a mail server may be hardware, but it
could be software also. Which is trivia the way I see it.
<sigh> Where to begin...
A Protocol is like a language. It is a well-defined method for one
machine to talk to another intelligently and reliably with respect to
the purpose it was written for.
SMTP is a protocol - in fact, 'SMTP' is an acronym for 'Simple Mail
Transfer Protocol'. It is designed for one thing and one thing only -
transferring mail intelligently and reliably from one machine to
another, until it gets to its final destination.
- but you are welcome to try - try relaying through
smtp.media-brokers.com and see what happens...
Only two things can happen, it passes or not. Why do it?
You claimed you could 'send it out to any mail server you wanted' - I
challenged you to prove it.
Of course, nothing stops you from *trying*, if that is what you meant,
but arguing such a point would be - pointless - so I didn't read it that
way...
Any mail server that accepts anonymous relays is what is known as
an 'open relay', and again, is part of the spam PROBLEM. Open
relays are [one of] the bane[s] of the internet.
So, you are saying when I send mail to mail.fugitt.com I would be
using the mail server at the ISP I use ?
How in the world could you read what I wrote to mean that??
But to answer your question - it depends, but yes, it is *possible*.
Your ISP could be *hosting* 'mail.fugitt.com' *for* you, in which case
it probably would be handled by one of their servers, but in a 'virtual
sense' - virtual hosting is quite common, and there many different
levels. But only the person responsible for managing 'mail.fugitt.com'
can answer that question authoritatively.
Maybe so, but I do not see it that way, and never have. I don't
believe that is true.
It isn't - and I fail to see how you could interpret what I said to mean
that.
When I send mail to mail.fugitt.com
Again - you are NOT sending mail to 'mail.fugitt.com' - you are sending
mail to - for example - '[email protected]'... DNS handles the
transaction, by first authenticating you to the smtp server you have set
up for the account you are using to send the message, and if you pass
that test, that smtp server accepts the message and attempts to deliver
it to the ultimate destination, as determined by DNS queries and responses.
I am not addressing my ISP mail server.
Correct - you address it to a 'recipient'.
I see it as pass thru packets. If you call it something else, and it
is, please explain that.
The smtp server the account you use to send the mail sees it as an smtp
transaction. The packets do indeed 'pass-thru' your ISPs servers - but
not their 'smtp' servers.
Sorry I use the wrong terms and confuse the issues, even the ones I
understand.
No apologies necessary - the main point I wanted to get across is that
'ISPs blocking port 25 is a *good* thing'... :)
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