On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 01:14:59PM -0400, Ode Coyote wrote:
>
>
> Within context.
> If there are no observable changes, there are no changes in any
> practical sense.
> There are ALWAYS limits to observation.
>
> I assure you that I am well aware of how tricky an EC meter can be
> after going round and round with Hanna Tech for 3 months asking them why
> I was repeatedly observing something when using their calibration fluid
> and them denying that I could be.
>
> They finally said I was too stupid to ask questions.
> I told them they were too defensive of their product to provide answers
> to a very simple question.
>
> Why does the number keep rising and rising when I try to calibrate this meter?
> Telling me it can't doesn't cut it...it IS.
>
> I had to figure it out myself when a simple one liner in the
> instructions would have provided the answer:
>
> "Don't hold the stupid sachet in your hand while calibrating the
> meter...idiot. Salesmen lie and tech is paid from sales. "
>
> ie "Temperature compensation isn't all we made it out to be" [But we'll
> never admit it ]
>
> I don't care about your ad copy, just tell me about the limits and I'll
> go from there...tech turkeys.
>
>
> One thing at a time.
>
> You have claimed that sunlight turns silver ions into particles after the
> process is complete.
No, I never said that at all.
I mentioned getting rid of ions by allowing solution to sit in the sun.
I also never claimed to have verified this with instrumentation, just
pointed out that according to what I know, that should do it (I leave the
lid off for speedier results, in case you were wondering).
Ions are unstable; it doesn't matter which element we're discussing.
They will react with other compounds at their first opportunity.
So yes, I am assuming my method to be sufficient. But, I don't think I ever
claimed otherwise.
> I have not seen that happen..within the limits of observation, of course.
> I have seen TE increase over a few days with or without
> sunlight...sunlight irrelevant...contaminants relevant...normal Hydroxide
> and Oxide reactions relevant, accomplished with or without sunlight, but
> once completed, unchanged for years and years in any observable manner,
> sunlight or none.
>
> By what mechanism is that possible?
> Premis: If it's absolutely impossible, I'm just not going to observe it
> happening.
> Since I haven't seen it happen, I'd like to know how it's possible.
>
> Explain within a context that excludes other elements which may or may
> not be there.
> We are dealing with Hydrogen, Oxygen, Silver, any of their possible
> compounds and light...after power has been removed and after the
> presumably pure product has stabilized.
>
> How can light change an ion in a manner that it won't change without light?
>
Light is a common catalyst in chemical reactions, whie any ion is just dying
to react with whatever it can by its very nature. Also, you are mistaken
about the nature of sealing containers. Screwing the lid back on an empty
food jar does not seal it (packing plants do more than just screw lids on).
And finally, fluctuation in barometric pressure most assuredly is the cause
of gasses passing just such an imperfect barrier.
Really, you should just rephrase your original claim.
You *believe* your solution was unchanged after five years; your EC meter
test may be all you need to consider that a fact, but you have not proven it.
I encourage you to spend some quality time at the library or with Google,
these answers are not quite as rare as hen's teeth...
I believe you are sincere Ode, and I wish you well. I do not want to go
around and around with you on these matters; it's as simple as definitive
proof vs belief. Belief is fine I guess, if you can believe in it (and if
it doesn't hurt you), but I really like to have definitive proof myself.
When no definitive proof exists, I don't mind properly qualified anecdotal
evidence ("properly qualified" is where we got at odds). I have accepted
your story as anecdotal evidence, and will bear it in mind. I'm not calling
you a liar, if that's what you think. I'm just a skeptical person, which (IMO)
is only sensible, after all.
indi
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