At 10:45 AM 8/19/2004 -0400, you wrote: >Re: CS>H2o2 >From: Ode Coyote >Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 07:12:34 > > > I think it was Nancy Delise that showed a micrograph of CS taken > > by a water treatment plant before and after adding peroxide that > > proves the case out. > > > Frank Key could run something definitive, if he were so inclined. > > > Ode > > Hi Ken, > > Those photographs raise a number of questions. > > 1. How do we know the shiny particles in the photos are made of > silver? It could be simple dust particles due to room air > contamination. ## WE don't really. Why would peroxide break apart a dust particle? > > 2. If the particles were indeed silver, how were they created? > Silver is insoluble in dw, as Frank Key went to extraordinary > lengths to discover. ## By definition, silver colloid is suspended in water, not dissolved. > > There is a slight possibility that silver crystals could be etched > from the surface of the electrode while the electrolysis process is > following a grain boundary. However, it is difficult to see how > electrolysis could work underneath a crystal, since it would shield > the electric field necessary to liberate silver ions. ## If the voltage is high enough, possible electrosputering? No, I do believe the silver particles form later out of ions as they pick up electrons from somewhere. It not 'just only' ion/anion stuff. Where? Golly, everywhere. It's more amazing that ions can exist for so long. > > Perhaps your extensive experience in plating would give some > guidance. ## My experience there was over 30 years ago by doing it and watching closely to do it well, seat of the pants style...not by a chemical engineering education. > > But in order to keep the chemical equations balanced, it is > difficult to see how pure silver can be created during electrolysis. ## All it takes is an electron to make a particle out of an ion. Anions play a role in certain spots to make hydroxides and oxides to some extent but I don't think that's the only source of electrons. The oxides and hydroxides tend to form on and to stay on the electrodes as fluffy white and fluffy black deposits if the current is low. Part of the bubble structure I've mentioned before is probably part silver hydroxide and part metallic particles. If it drops to the bottom, the hydrogen dissolves out of the structure releasing a white cloud identical to the "ion" cloud but leaves a portion of itself on the bottom as a white dust. It's hard to tell the difference between a clumpy cluster of silver particles having a white cast due to texture and silver hydroxide which has its own white color, so I couldn't say that either is there exclusively. If the electrodes are positioned very close to the bottom of the container, I get a black spot on one side, a white spot on the other and a silver plating in between. H2O2 doesn't seem to want to touch any of them. It all has to be scrubbed off mechanically. > > The only source of electrons near the anode is the hydroxyl ion, > OH-. When it meets a silver ion, it creates silver hydroxide, which > is unstable and may covert to plain silver oxide. ## That would explain both of the electrodes sometimes becoming black. It's a rare occurance but it happens.
The same thing > happens at the cathode. This is the soft black or dark brown coating > everyone wipes off their electrodes. ## Yup, silver oxides 'now', made instantly and never making it off the cathode. > > If the current density is low enough, silver ions can plate out at > the cathode. This is the source of the gray whiskers on the cathode > at the end of the brew. As you explained long ago, the silver atoms > enclose hydrogen bubbles to form the sludge. However, it is not > clear that Nancy's cs generator ran at low enough current for this > to occur. ## Somewhere along the line, the atoms form to coat the bubbles..and make suspended silver particles...and hydroxides. > > It is easy to tell the difference H2O2 has on silver oxide vs pure > silver. If you put a drop on your silver electrode and look at the > reaction under a microscope, you see tiny bubbles forming rather > slowly. ## I've seen the peroxide clean off the oxide pretty fast. What I don't understand is why, if a black electrode is left in peroxide after being cleaned off, does it turn black again. > > If you evaporate several ounces of cs to form silver oxide/hydroxide > as I described in recent posts, then add H2O2, the reaction is much > faster. It bubbles and fizzes as it liberates oxygen. The result is > a clear solution of silver ions. ##You know, some people say that adding peroxide reduces TE indicating a return to ionic form, but I don't see that. What I see is a change in quality of the TE from course and grainy to ultra fine, uniform and fuzzy..and quite often increasing in intensity I think there may be a lot more going on than a few equations can account for, perhaps due to a difference in monatomic and diatomic oxygen doing things differently when interacting with silver ions. There is also such a thing as silver peroxide and 3 different formulations of silver oxide. Silver hydroxls are very unstable... if I have it right, while silver hydroxide is stable enough to dry package and sell. It could be that running batches of CS differently makes different mixes entirely, with proportions distributed differently. I see much evidence that this is true but getting a handle on what is specifically true in specific cases is a huge job. I tend to discard that which I don't like rather than figuring out why that happened, while persuing what I do like. I tried the ultra low current density and didn't care for the results. What I'm saying is, using ultra low current density doesn't do exactly the same thing as using medium current density which doesn't do the same thing as using high current density. Then throw stirring into it and something else happens in different places to different degrees and even the 'rate' of stirring can make big differences. How much of what, where is it when and for how long? [Oh golly..lots o luck] I'm not so sure that hydroxls always convert to hydroxides or that particles are always simple silver oxides or that simple compounds are all there is to it all. Maybe there are some loose associations involved, some stage or form that's not an actual compound..more like a structural 'pattern' or quasi alloy where different forms of oxygen fill a lattice structure in a crystal without making a compound. Temperature and atmospheric pressure will affect outgassing which may in some cases prevent oxidation of silver ions and the formation of silver hydroxide. Are we dealing with different mixes and ratios of monoatomic and diatomic oxygen? All this remains unclear, but it is very clear that making EIS is a highly dynamic and complex process where the slightest thing makes a difference to the point that no two batches are exactly the same. If any given person gets a 'range' of repeatability, I call that good. It follows that the effects of H2O2 will be somewhat different from person to person, system to system, procedure to procedure...never mind trace elements in water and stray catalysts. I've heard people describe at least 3 different effects on their various batches of silver water made their particular way...ranging from the dissappearance of the TE, to a strengthening of the TE to changes in TE quality at the same intensity, explosions of yellow turning milky white, then sometimes back to clear with and without a TE...even developing a blueish cast. I've not seen a significant increase in conductivity after adding peroxide beyond what I'd expect from peroxides own conductive nature [doesn't turn particles into ions]..then conductivity sometimes goes down after a while, TE becomes more pronounced with a different quality, no explosions or fizzing. Others say different. I don't even get the same results from adding salt that you describe. In my experience, peroxide will remove black oxides from electrodes, [then put it back on and not take it off again] but not from the bottom of a container where they were deposited there by close proximity of the electrode. Why the difference? I think that a 'few' chemical and electro equations may only touch a tenth of what 'can' happen and at our levels of instrumentation, we'll never really know what did happen. I'm not so sure that adequate instrumentation even exists that can differentiate all the nuances. > > Then, if you add salt, a very dense cloud of silver chloride is > produced. This shows the H2O2 converts the silver oxide/hydroxide > back to silver ions, and kept them separated. > > The reason I mention this is if the particles in Nancy's photos are > silver, it would take days or weeks to covert them to ions. The > reaction of H2O2 on pure silver is extremely slow. You can show this > yourself by making some silver sludge in your Silverpuppy, then > adding H2O2 to convert it to ions. The sludge particles will bubble > for a very long time, no matter how much H2O2 you add to the > solution. ## I made a batch 'with' H2O2 once..ran it for days, never went over 13 uS, made great big shiney metal flakes. They eventually disappeared leaving several small round hard black balls in the bottom while the water turned faint yellow. Took almost a year. Very strong flavor with a tongue idea that there was still a lot of peroxide in that water. I didn't like it, threw it out and never tried it again. End of story. > > So I am not sure what the shiny particles in Nancy's photos are, but > I don't think they are silver metal. ## And I don't see why they wouldn't be. Obviously something makes that TE and it's not black..though I have made stuff with a black cast and a TE, getting progressively blacker over time by using too high a current density. Off hand, I'd say that was oxides in the water. ..even made a black frothy emulsion in less than 4 minuutes that seperated into brown and black layers using both high voltage and high current density. Couldn't throw it away fast enough. Nope, that ain't it. ...next... Edison wasn't nearly as smart as Tesla, but he knew what he wanted to see and discarded a lot that didn't look like that while following that which resembled what he was looking for. It's not like he knew what he was doing...he just knew what he wasn't doing and probably didn't care why something didn't work. [He was into 'search'...not re-search?] He could have spent decades analyzing the failures and oddities down to the last nuance, adding to a knowledge base but not making a light bulb. Ode > >Best Wishes, > >Mike Monett > > >-- >The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. > >Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org > >To post, address your message to: [email protected] >Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html > >Address Off-Topic messages to: [email protected] >OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html > >List maintainer: Mike Devour <[email protected]> > >
