Mike Monett wrote: > Re: CS>Adding peroxide to CS > From: Marshall Dudley > Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 07:25:44 > http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/m72870.html > > ref: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/m72863.html > > > This would certainly be interesting to try, however I don't agree > > with your conclusions. Here are the equations: > > > 2Ag(+) + 2OH(-) --> Ag2O + H2O > > Great! We agree on the basic and most fundamental property of silver > electrolysis! Silver oxide is formed when silver ions released at > the anode combine with hydroxyl ions formed at the cathode.
That is only one way they can form. Other ways are the monoatomic oxygen reacting with the silver in the electrode directly and monoatomic hydrogen reacting directly with the silver on the other electrode producing Silver Hydroxide, which then spontaneously changes to silver oxide. > > > This is most likely to occur where the concentrations are the > highest, which is in the Nernst diffusion layer right next to the > electrodes. This also explains why running at high current produces > black oxides on both electrodes, and this limits the max > concentration of Ag+ that can be obtained with the 3 nines or other > high-current methods. > > Running at lower current reduces the density of ions in the Nernst > layer, which allows some silver ions to reach the cathode and accept > an electron to become a neutral atom. This explains how the gray > sludge is formed when silver atoms enclose the hydrogen gas formed > at the cathode, plus may other things that have caused a great deal > of confusion in the past. However, on to your next equation: > > > Ag2O + H2O2 --> 2 Ag + H20 + O2 > > Now this is where I have a problem. I searched for information on > the charges involved with H2O2, and the only thing I can find > corresponds with your statement that H2O2 is water with an extra > oxygen tacked on. For example, H2O2 dissociates to plain water by > releasing oxygen gas: > > 2H2O2 --> O2 + 2H2O True. Water is H(+)(OH)(-). H2O2 is weird, according to the oxidation states, it should not even be possible. I will have to check further. > > > So if this equation is correct, there are no missing or extra > electrons involved. That accounts for one of the oxygen in your > equation. > > But, the Ag2O has to supply two electrons to form the other oxygen > atom needed for O2. So don't you think the equation should read: > > Ag2O + H2O2 --> 2Ag(+) + H20 + O2 I am not tracking electrons, they take care of themselves and will always balance. If you want to start plotting charges then it would be: Ag(+)2O(--) + H2O2 = 2Ag + H2O + O2. But you can't track charges as if they are atoms, they can cancel out, and for compounds that are covalent bonded, there are no charges at all, like for O2. The charges should sum to 0 on both sides of the equation, which your equation does not. > > > I really don't understand your next equation: > > > Ag + H2O2 --> AgO + H2O > > What would cause an ordinary neutral silver atom to suddenly combine > with an ordinary plain neutral oxygen atom? Don't they both have to > be ions in order to combine? No not at all. Try putting some sodium in water, it will react violently! If that were true, then elements would be unable to form compounds at all, and gasoline would not burn at all. > > > > AgO + H2O2 --> Ag + H2O + O2 > > Same argument as before. I think the equation should read something > like the following, but there seems to be one electron missing: > > AgO + H2O2 --> Ag(+) + H2O + O2 No electron missing, if you want to track the charges then you have: Ag(++)O(--) + H2O2 --> Ag + H2O + O2 Charges add up to 0 on both sides of the equation as they should. > > > > The results are complicated by the fact that not only do we not > > know which form of silver oxide if formed, but also that the > > reaction both forms silver oxide, and forms silver from silver > > oxide. > > But we do know the forms of the oxides produced during silver > electrolysis: > > Ag(+) + OH(-) --> AgOH (hydroxide) > > The hydroxide can remain as it is, or combine to form oxide: > > 2AgOH --> Ag2O + H2O (silver oxide) > True for that route, but on the anode, monoatomic oxygen can combine directly with silver and produce AgO (or Ag2O). This can be easily demonstrated by putting silver into H2O2 where the monoatomic oxygen reacts with the silver tarnishing it, and producing a precipitant if left long enough. > > > To make the experiment correct he needs to take the silver oxide > > that is formed, and dissolve it into water leaving behind any > > metallic silver. Then he should divide the water with the silver > > oxide in it into two parts. Then add the H2O2 to one of them, but > > not the other. Then when the salt is added to each, compare the > > difference between the two. > > Excellent idea! This forms a control that was missing from the > procedure. > > Now all we have to do is get Ken to run the tests:) I await the results. :-) > > > > I would expect the one that had H2O2 added to it to have less > > silver chloride formed. > > I would expect none in the control sample, and heavy dispersion with > the H2O2 sample. It is a matter of whether silver will give up oxygen for chlorine, or vice versa, or if it does both so there will be a combination of both that stabalizes to some ratio. Unfortunately I cannot find a good reference that has oxygen in the series of what will replace what in silver. > > > > The final stage would be to let evaporate again, and dissolve out > > the silver oxide. The one with HO2 added should have some silver > > left, whereas the other one should not. If it were possible to > > weight the silver and silver oxide and get a ratio, we could get > > an idea of the relative rates of the two reactions. > > Now we are getting beyond the capacity of my simple mind to > comprehend. We need to write the expected equations for me to grasp > what you are after. > Lets see what the results are, then I can write the equations for the results, writing them for what I think is possible would be a waste of time at this point. > > > BTW, a lot of silver oxide can be made by simply putting silver > > into some H2O2 for a couple of days, a good bit will form and > > settle out on the bottom of the glass. > > Interesting... What are the equations? 2Ag + 2H2O2 --> 2Ag(++)O(--) + 2H2O + O2 or 2Ag + 2H2O2 --> Ag(+)2O(--) + 2H2O Marshall > > > > Marshall > > Best Wishes, > > Mike Monett > > -- > The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. > > Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org > > To post, address your message to: [email protected] > Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html > > Address Off-Topic messages to: [email protected] > OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html > > List maintainer: Mike Devour <[email protected]>
