> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dean Willis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 11:45 AM
> To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
> Cc: IETF SIP List; Audet, Francois (SC100:3055); Christer Holmberg
> Subject: Re: What are we arguing about when we say INFO? (was 
> Re: [Sip] INFO)
> 
> 
> On Oct 11, 2007, at 6:54 PM, DRAGE, Keith ((Keith)) wrote:
> 
> > There is one major downside to this.
> >
> > If we are sending stuff in the dialog, it really ought to have some 
> > relation to the dialog, not just be included there because 
> the dialog 
> > happened to exist.....then you end up with people wanting 
> to route the 
> > dialog to a centralised point where you can extract this 
> piggy-backed 
> > information ... Then you end up with a stimulus protocol 
> between this 
> > UE and this centralised server where the dialog contains 
> absolutely no 
> > knowledge of the state of the session.
> >
> > Providing an in dialog mechanism makes it much harder to to 
> stop this 
> > happening.
> 
> That's back to the question of  "Is SIP an application 
> protocol or a transport protocol"?
> 
> Should the SIP-layer software be aware of and coupled to the 
> state of the application that's using SIP?
> 
> If so, then the proper design model is to build a new SIP 
> request method for every new piece of application functionality.

You forgot about supported.

> 
> So for example, DTMF: Using this model of SIP extension, we 
> might define a new "DTMF" method. It would look just like 
> DTMF-over-INFO, except the name of the method would be DTMF. 
> It clearly resolves the INFO-context question, because now we 
> KNOW we're getting dialog- related DTMF over it, and we know 
> what to do with it. We know what we can transport in 
> DTMF-requests, because the RFC that defines the DTMF 
> extension method will also define exactly what payload format to use.

INVITE
Supported: foo
Allow: INFO
Accept: application/foo

200 OK
Supported: foo
Allow: INFO
Accept: application/foo

...

INFO
Content-Type: application/foo
[DTMF]


Where is this broken?
> 
> This too is a clean solution to the problem, although it 
> embodies a different design philosophy than the same-dialog NOTIFY.
> 
> This leads back to my question: What is the right extension 
> modality for SIP? Until we have an answer here, we're going 
> to keep going back and forth on this. MAKE A DECISION, PEOPLE!

You can't feasibly make a clean one. There will always be SDP vs.
non-SDP extension modalities.

> 
> Now for the bad news: People are still having this argument 
> about HTTP (we had it during XCAP in the GET/PUT vs POST 
> debate) even though the real world has proven dramatically by 
> example that HTTP is a transport protocol and is 
> protocol-wise completely decoupled from the state of the 
> application (see AJAX as an example).
> 
> --
> Dean
> 
> 
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