Hi folks, Let's wrap this conversation up, at least until someone takes the time to document the salient, actionable points of this conversation here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Camera-based_Input
If you'd like to continue to discuss this, a good place to put your thoughts is here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Talk:Camera-based_Input Thanks, Rob On 06/08/2009 09:24 AM, Dahlia Trimble wrote: > A few points about the Natal video that I find difficult to believe > from a technological perspective: > > * the actor's arms are often occluded from the sensor by their bodies > yet the avatars react as if the arm positions are tracked > > * a few of the actors are wearing flowing clothing that can occlude > body positions such as loose open sweaters > > * at the very beginning of one of the videos there is some text along > the bottom left: "Product vision: actual features and functionality > may vary" > > Given that, I don't think a company like Microsoft would publicize > non-existent technology unless they had some proof of concept working > in their labs. 3D scene recognition via stereo cameras has been around > for quite a few years now and I think the time is ripe for consumer > products like this to come about. I somehow doubt that the first > generation products will work as well as the video suggests. > > On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 9:08 AM, Ron Blechner <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > Oh, p.s. > > I met up with someone at the CT Film Festival this weekend who > confirmed that the whole body interactive demos by Microsoft? STAGED. > Entirely a mock-up demo. The technology apparently works but they're > no where near actual product demo. > > -Ron / Hiro > > On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 11:31 AM, Ron Blechner<[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > The problem with the handshake: > > > > In short - it's 2 seconds worth of interaction. That's a tiny amount > > of reward for a tremendous amount of work it would take to make it > > better. And, there are already handshake and bow animations - they > > don't line up with another avatar, but doing all the work to make > > handshakes doesn't even create a new function - it just polishes an > > existing one. > > > > Compare that with putting in effort to do better facial animations - > > that would affect 100% of the time of interaction between two > people. > > And consider that facial animation programming is *client-side* by > > nature, and doesn't require breaking apart and redoing the > avatar code > > in Second Life to the degree that handshakes / puppeteering does. > > That's a helluva lot more results for a helluva lot less effort. > > > > I'd also like to add that, as Lawson pointed out, there is cultural > > bias. According to Neilsen, there are 170 million Americans actively > > using social media. There are twice that in China alone. China > has 20% > > of the world's population. Are we here to make a Western > metaverse, or > > a global one based on ideals not bound by one country, or one > culture? > > The reason we handshake instead of bow is because the West has > > controlled the vast amounts of wealth in the world. Like it or not, > > the West is spending its Wealth and a tremendous amount is going to > > the East. In 20 years - we all may be bowing, like it or not. > > > > I don't want to ruffle too many features, but it's an important > > exercise to escape one's own assumptions and biases when debating > > functionality with a platform whose stated goal is to be "a new > > country", as Rosedale would say. > > > > And to bring this back - the larger issue is that people tend to get > > caught up in particular niceties like handshakes and miss > > bigger-picture items. What good are handshakes if the rest of the > > conversation is less meaningful because it lacks facial expression? > > > > I say, FORGET puppeteering. Forget handshakes. Let's focus our > efforts > > on something much easier to accomplish, and with far more impact on > > Second Life. Facial expressions from video. > > > > *runs off to blog these thoughts* > > > > > > -- > > Ron Blechner > > Chief Technology Officer > > Involve, Inc > > www.involve3d.com <http://www.involve3d.com> > > SL: Hiro Pendragon > > > > > > p.s. PLUG! http://secondtense.blogspot.com > > > > On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Tateru > Nino<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > >> Maybe it isn't really about handshakes, and more about general > >> lining-up-of-body-parts between avatars? :) > >> > >> However, for most people in first-world western cultures, a > handshake is the > >> frequently sole form of socially allowable physical contact > between two > >> people who aren't intimates at some level. That makes it > strongly symbolic. > >> > >> For handshake you can substitute a few variations: > Knuckle-bumps, high-fives > >> and such, but they're all basically a handshake with different > emotional > >> flavoring. > >> > >> Ron Blechner wrote: > >> > >> Question: > >> > >> Why are handshakes so important that they are much more of a > topic of > >> discussion of implementation, against facial expressions? > >> > >> -Ron / Hiro > >> > >> On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 7:34 AM, Argent > >> Stonecutter<[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > >> > >> > >> On 2009-06-04, at 08:55, Jan Ciger wrote: > >> > >> > >> Argent, read my comment to Tigro's mail. It wouldn't work. At least > >> not > >> in a nice way. For reaching and grasping you need much more IK than > >> just > >> the three arm joints and then you are hitting a severely > >> under-constrained and computationally expensive problem. > >> > >> > >> That's why you don't try and solve it computationally. You don't > >> replace normal animation, you use this for minor adjustments to the > >> existing animation, and you limit the strength of the adjustment to > >> small angles and specific joints. > >> > >> So it's down to the person selecting the base animation and > providing > >> the strength and possibly range (either distance or angle). > >> > >> > >> > >> E.g. in one case I have seen the solver to keep the hands next > to the > >> avatar's waist but stick the waist forward to reach a goal. > >> > >> > >> Wouldn't happen, unless the person selected the waist as the joint > >> that would move, and unless the waist was already close to the > goal. > >> > >> > >> > >> IK is a nice tool, but extremely hard to use unless you have an > >> animator > >> guiding it. > >> > >> > >> Which is the point. > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > >> privileges > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Tateru Nino > >> http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/ > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > Ron Blechner > Chief Technology Officer > Involve, Inc > www.involve3d.com <http://www.involve3d.com> > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated > posting privileges > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
