Fred, I agree with your opinion. I read the threads and had to take a larger overview to what a benchmark actually means.
In my opinion, Benchmark planes, means some plane to which other planes are compared to so that a noticeable advancement in performance, building, transport, and flying can be measured. They should be unique and contribute unique characteristics. With that said, the Onyz, or Sharon, or Supra, in fact nearly 99% of the planes on the market currently are really just "refinements" to existing designs, and really are not improvements. The problem with "benchmarks" is that they generally last a very short time, perhaps only one contest, or one weekend of flying. Why? Because if any improvement is so radical that it makes the plane fly 3-6% better, it will be incorporated into the next generation model, or an existing model, and it's distinctiveness rapidly lost. So, in my opinion, the following might be considered benchmarks: 1) The Nelson KA6. You know this plane. It is perhaps the first fully fiberglass and molded, aerobatic, 12 ft R/C sailplane of the 1970's. 2) The Graupner Cirrus. Again in the 1970's, it was the first fully plastic molded fuselage. It has ailerons, flying stab, was very light for it's time. 3) The EPP Zagi wing: I look at this as the first time we could fly combat with a wing and not have to spend so much time in the shop fixing planes. Besides the durability (a benchmark), EPP would permit a lot of PSS planes to be made, and got a lot of simulator pilots and computer geeks out to the slope. 4) The Aquila: When Skip Miller added a semisymmetrical airfoil to the plane, we saw the advent of new types of airfoils being used that provided greater range. 5) The Mirage: Designed by Blaine Rawdon, this was one of the early designs that spurred lightweight floater sailplanes. It also started the "thick" vs "Thin" debate, started winch development to the strong ones we have today. It spurred first the thick flat bottomed sections, but later as CF was put in the spars, lead to the planes that we currently fly today. An Ava or Bubble Dancer, etc, is nothing more than a tricked up Mirage. 6) SWK MK I: You probably don't know this model, but it was designed by Jerry Krainock and flown by him to several cross country distance records prior to Joe Wurts' current records. I had a thick airfoil, was foam cored, and was very fast. 7) The Sunbird: Dave Thornburg designed this early HLG, but this HLG was not the first, nor the best HLG, out there for its time. It did have a big influence in getting HLG going, as did the Mirage and others. Most other HLGs, in my opinion, just refinements. 8) The Upstart: The Upstart was the first DLG used in competition. Tip launching was first pioneered by Dick Barker and Harold Locke, in Seattle, and Dick Barker used the launching method to be able to keep up with the overhand throws of Joe Wurts and the rest. When EVERYONE else realized that they could use this method, most effectively by adding a gyro to their current planes, DLG became the only method for launching. Gyros are now gone by good DLG design and airfoiled tailgroups, but overall the UpStart was the benchmark. It did not last long. 9) The Todi: Bob Dodgsen brought out this first flaperon ship, which used mechanical mixers for the flaperons. The Ace MicroPro TX as well as early JR radio designs permitted planes to be built with electronic rather than mechanical mixers. The Todi represented the first time a TD plane could use airfoil camber for tasks. So, EVERY TD ship that uses any sort of aileron and flap changing owes it's existence to the Todi. They are refinements. 10) The Challenger: Designed by Otto Heitdecker, this large flapperon plane was a precursor to the subsequent larger Maestro designs of Dodgsen. Otto was a dominating pilot of the SOAR nats years. He can be compared to all of us that fly molded flapped ship today. 11) Sitars/Dohle: German designs, they were early precursors to F3B ships, molded, new HQ airfoils, flapped. Basically it showed that multiple models from the same molds can be made for competition and all fly the same. 12) Hobie Hawk: Designed by Hobie Alder, the plane represented one of the first mass produced composite laminated planes. It spurred vacuum bagging techniques, as well as foam cutting and fiberglass skins, then CF use. It was not a great contest winner, but the building techniques it used lead to what we currently are refining today. 13) Rolf Decker Designs: I cannot quote which planes were built by Rolf Decker, but Rolf had some of the first really great F3B molded planes. For example, he had a F3B plane that had telescoping wings. For speed it pulled the wings in and for thermaling, they were expanded. The building techniques, airfoils, and plane moments in current F3B designs have origins here. 14) Thermic 50: This is a Goldberg design whose influences are seen in the Bird of Time. 15) JW Wing: Here is one of the first planes that permitted Dynamic Soaring to take hold. It permitted every DS pilot to home their skills prior to the current developments. OK, So you guys want to flame me for trying to set benchmarks. Personally, most of the planes we fly today are not too distinct, and certainly do not have any real improvements that make them better than any others. I would venture to characterize today's planes as "Mutts", as in referring to the dog world. They are not purebred for their characteristics, and none of the planes really are a "species" that contributes new and unique characteristics. Think back, what plane really had something unique for the sport? Those, in my opinion, are the benchmarks, even though they way now be by the wayside. Chris > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [RCSE] Re: Supra or Onyx JW?? > From: Fred Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Wed, November 28, 2007 11:48 pm > To: RCSE <soaring@airage.com> > > I've got to quickly get closer to my toilet... I think I'm going to > PUKE~!!!! > JW? Onyx? Benchmarks???? You gotta be kiddin' me......... PUKE!!!! > damn it! > Weav > > Pat McCleave wrote: > > Brian, > > > > That could be said of about any model Joe flys then. I have watched him > > successfully HLG several different models out. One fairly heavy old beater > > looking thing he was flying several years ago in Tulsa, I saw him launch > > out several times in a row while shooting landing practice. Basically that > > anoits Joe as one of the Master Pilots and does not really say a whole lot > > about the plane. Don't get me wrong I think the Supra is one of best > > planes out there but I do not necessarily consider it the bench mark for > > all other designs. > > > > See Ya, > > > > Pat McCleave > > Wichita, KS > > ---- Brian Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >> Joe Wurts who could fly any model he chooses, winning the Nats, coming to > >> Tullahoma and hand launching into a sky out 95% of the time did not hurt > >> the Supras anointing any too much.. YUP..Gordy knows!! (grin) Brian > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: Joe Rodriguez > >> To: soaring@airage.com > >> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 11:18 AM > >> Subject: Re: [RCSE] Re: Supra or Onyx JW?? > >> > >> > >> What I find interesting why is the Supra considered the "bench mark" ? > >> who is the soaring lord who made this decree? > >> > >> The Supra is the most documented sailplane since it's release to the > >> public, with it's many issues depending what serial number you have. I can > >> not agree that fits a standard for "bench mark" status. > >> > >> > >> > >> j > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: Gordysoar > >> To: soaring@airage.com > >> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 12:03 PM > >> Subject: [RCSE] Re: Supra or Onyx JW?? > >> > >> > >> > >> -I went with the Onyx Jw because I thought it performed about like a > >> Supra - Jack > >> > >> What I find interesting is that the Supra is considered the 'bench > >> mark' and then there are the others...cheaper, but with some feature > >> that makes them...better? worth more? almost as good for the cost? > >> > >> There are a lot of reasons to chose something other than the ships that > >> are most proven and popluar, cost being one but in fact the cost is a > >> few lawn mowings or driveway shovelings extra cash away from each > >> other. > >> > >> The number one reason to get something other than the 'bench mark' > >> ship? > >> Because you want to try something else...it makes the hobby that much > >> more fun for you. > >> > >> Second best reason...because IF you enter a contest flying the same > >> ship as the majority....you are left with one less excuse for not > >> having done as well as they all did. Flying the same design as the > >> group can make Man On Man more about the pilot. Maybe takes a little > >> more guts :-) > >> > >> Third Reason...because you still believe that a certain model's foil or > >> weight or span offers some advantage that will tip the time or landing > >> points your way over the other poor saps stuck with that that 'bench > >> mark' sailplane. > >> > >> > >> Gordy > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Gordysoar > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> Gordysoar's Profile: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?u=12801 > >> View this thread: > >> http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=772985 > >> > >> RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send > >> "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note > >> that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format > >> with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and > >> AOL are generally NOT in text format > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> > >> > >> No virus found in this incoming message. > >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. > >> Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.8/1154 - Release Date: > >> 11/27/2007 11:40 AM > >> > > > > RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and > > "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and > > unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. > > Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT > > in text format > > > > > > > RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. 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