Re: Rigging and Animation in Modo

[Jason S]

On 08/22/14 13:06, Serch Mucino wrote: Workflow-wise, I'd say Modo is closer to Maya than anything else. Apart from the mentioned issues, for me that's what I wasn't too fond about Modo (feels a bit like a cross between Maya & Lightwave) but it's at least still much more approachable than either. Also, I know the 701 did get great performance improvements for some things, so at least we see that it's possible, but that was only after many many years of knowing of the problem (like now) which also -still remains-. (probably rather deep core stuff, where it's hard to not break, or not have to basically redo entire trickling chunks, while also already having as many issues with stability) ... we should get a Montreal Modo User Group going! I know there are a few Modo users over here... maybe something could be done ;-). Lol I would love to, but for me.. I'll be focusing on comp (which I love) at least for a while, but which is I guess at least part of why I'm somewhat unhappy about how things turned out. All Softimage studios around me have either kept-on using SI until further notice, (but not necessarily  hiring) or until something comparably let say:'efficient' surfaces.. (not just finishing previous projects, but also starting new ones   not wanting to deal with ~2x as long/hard, ~2x the staff, 2x everything ) .. or somehow managed to -cope- with Maya (coping with the ~2x as long/hard, ~2x the staff, 2x everything.. to which the tweak tool or the H key hardly compensates).. OR.. have actually closed down! (with the quite literal ~2x as long/hard, ~2x the staff, 2x everything quite possibly having something to do with a good part of it). And I guess same goes for me (in studios), deadlines often being (pretty normally) rather tight, XSI has somehow always been specially good for exactly that, and Maya has always been almost like the exact opposite while not having really changed.. it's pretty incredible. (historically, and pretty much still just as much, while always only adding new things) That unless there is like dedicated teams for all sorts of little things at the same time, or be in one of the bigger studios who use old maya versions that have nothing to do with Maya and that aren't even interested in new versions. And already in XSI, despite being by far the most "forgiving", it sometimes happens that it's barely enough to deliver in time, enough that we couldn't have imagined what (or if) we would have delivered with anything else. Which is what I guess brought me personally to focus on comp (at 40, I can't/don't want to do the ~80h I use to) But I think that it's fair to say that the killing of SI, at least seriously hindered a major part of the small(er) (non-super-huge) shop market (where SI existed most), leaving the only other option out there that can (currently) otherwise 'take it' (very -technically- speaking). and why? Because Bifrost is coming?  (sigh!) (and/or Maya  wanted it all?) Success! Maya now has it all! I LOVE Modo's schematic environment. It's really comfortable to work in (in spite of its complete lack of grouping or layout features... which I'm guessing will be addressed soon), and it has a lot of really useful nodes (I wished 3ds max had this for many years). It's not as deep as ICE (yet), but I can already replicate pretty much all my ICE Kinematics setups in Modo. The schematic can also be used to create/manage particle systems and (Bullet) dynamics, but I can't compare those to ICE, since I didn't really explore that side of it in my brief time with Soft. Modo still lacks some bread-n-butter tools, and in some parts, the workflow is rather rough. However, where it really stands apart is in the way deformations are treated. It's a very open-ended system, that can achieve very complex setups with ease, using something commonly referred to as the OOO stack (or Order Of Operations). I've been able to do some very interesting things with it. Modo is not a very procedural application, but when it comes to rigging, it does accomplish pretty much anything you could think of. It still needs to better support some data types (such as matrices), but I think that it's headed in the right direction, and having ICE-like workflows is just a matter of time. Yes, Modo still doesn't have the performance Soft or Maya provide. It's something that's known. I really hope this gets solved, because it's one of the most pressing factors I've seen that stop people from using it for animation. If you're doing bipedal characters, you definitely want to take a look at ACS. It's a Kit (add-on) for Modo that provides some really nice rigging/animation features. The downside to it is that's currently limited to bipeds. I'm looking forward to this becoming a more Gear-like system, although it already excels in several areas. I guess I'd sum it up in that Modo does not yet provide the depth of Maya or the polished workflows of Softimage. But my hopes for it are high. If The Foundry continue to invest in the animation side of things, I think it could become a serious viable alternative. For those also interested in scripting (lots of riggers I know are), be prepared to go through some headaches. Modo has the most unorthodox Python implementation I've used so far. I understand it's mainly due to the architecture of the application (it was written in C, not C++, so there's not an object model the way you'd be used to find in other applications or languages). TF is working on making this a lot more Pythonic by wrapping parts of the Python API in user classes, which do provide a much more "OO" approach at scripting, but these classes are still WIP, so some areas are still not there, and you'll have to deal with the raw Python API (or the legacy services, which once you wrap your head around, are actually quite useful). Anyway, I'm not gonna turn this into a long thread. If anyone has any specific questions, do shoot. We'll do our best to answer. I not have enough Modo rigs to update my demo reel. If I post anything soon, I'll let you guys know. Jason... we should get a Montreal Modo User Group going! I know there are a few Modo users over here... maybe something could be done ;-). Cheers all! ---- Sergio Mucino On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 11:54 AM, Jason S <jasonsta...@gmail.com> wrote: Performance and/or stability issues, or not rattling over 40mph,  seems to be what keeps either of them from being more widely used as main pipeline apps. Currently, at least in my part of the woods (in Montreal.. being not exactly in the middle of the woods except physically :p ) .. virtually no studio runs with either of them, and even worldwide, job posts seem to be scarce to say the least. And would be delighted to see one, or even more *BOTH* overcome their relative limitations enough for them to be more seriously considered, otherwise not at-all lacking in really great things. On 08/22/14 10:25, Tim Crowson wrote: I can tell you that voices are pretty loud on this topic (i.e. everyone agrees with you vehemently), and The Foundry can't help but hear us. There are performance issues that need to be dealt with, and I sure hope they get them resolved. -Tim On 8/22/2014 9:05 AM, Eric Thivierge wrote: However, in my opinion and from my perspective rigs need to be fast and able to load high resolution geometries with full deformations. If that isn't a super high priority for companies in the next 2 years, you're missing the boat. Eric T.