Surface fires involving flammable liquids, gases, and solids protected by total
flooding do not have a
"high" flow rate, [ 1 minute to reach extinguishment concentration] it just a
higher rate than deep
seated ( 2 Min to reach 30%). My theory is that Surface fires involving
flammable liquids, gases, and
solids will continue to grow in size or become more difficult to extinguish as
time goes on. Re-flash
also becomes more likely. Deep seated fires are by definition "not going
anywhere soon" and 7 minutes
are allowed to reach design concentration.
Subfloors don't have the venting problem because they are connected by many
holes and vents to the
main room. But frankly, I'm uncomfortable with your design concept. I know of
NO computer room
application where the above floor was protected with a clean agent and the
subfloor protected with a
different clean agent. I am neither an AHJ nor a PE, but I am a certifier of
systems. I wouldn't
certify such a system if I ran into it installed somewhere. I would order it
tagged "Non-compliant".
Burton Ford
SET, CFPS
Member AFAA
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
267-487-1000
Fax 267-487-1010
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-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Reza Esmaeili
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 12:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Carbon Dioxide System Discharge Time
Thanks All,
Ford, if the intent of slow flow rate for deep seated fires is preventing
over pressurization, so
why NFPA-12 suggest high flow rate for Surface fires involving flammable
liquids, gases, and solids?
NFpa12 States that "Surface fires are the most common hazard particularly
adaptable to
extinguishment by total flooding systems. They are subject to prompt
extinguishment when carbon
dioxide is quickly introduced into the enclosure in sufficient quantity to
overcome leakage and
provide an extinguishing concentration for the particular materials involved."
NFpa12 also States that "For deep-seated fires, the required extinguishing
concentration shall be
maintained for a sufficient period of time to allow the smoldering to be
extinguished and the material
to cool to a point at which reignition will not occur when the inert atmosphere
is dissipated."
I think I explained at first in a bad manner. There are two protected area.
1- Computer room: would be protected with FM-200 system
2- Computer room subfloor with electrical equipment and cable runs: would be
protected with high
pressure carbon dioxide system.
My question is about subfloor, while NFPA 12 states that "For deep-seated
fires, the design
concentration shall be achieved within 7 minutes, but the rate shall be not
less than that required to
develop a concentration of 30 percent in 2 minutes." Is it a problem if the
total discharge time would
be only 1 minute for this case?
Thanks,
Reza
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I don't disagree just haven't had any of the sparky/computer types have
any warm fuzzies when you speak of wet pipe sprinklers. Usually with
reluctance they will accept the pre-action scheme but would rather have
nothing with water in the room at all. Then you explain the fact that
if there's a fire, the responders will most likely be bringing hoses in
and that sometimes gets their attention.
In any case these types of situation are always a point of contention
mostly due to a lot of misinformation and fables.
But can you blame them with all those leaking, false tripping, deluge
systems they see on TV?
Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Group
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.lg.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 11:29 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Carbon Dioxide System Discharge Time
Craig:
I wasn't saying a pre-action sprinkler system instead of a wet pipe
system.
My preference is a wet system with independent smoke sensors tied to the
fire alarm system. The only time I use pre-action is when the owner is
the nervous type.
Otherwise, the water damage can be greater due to potential operation of
more heads due to the operational delay.
Regards,
James L.(Jim) Roberts, PE, SET
Fluor Corporation
100 Fluor Daniel Drive - C104F
Greenville, SC 29607
864.281.5149
864.281.4916(Fax)
Sent by:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To
prinkler.org
08/23/2007 11:07 AM
cc
Please respond to
sprinklerforum
Subject
RE: Carbon
Dioxide System Discharge Time
Can the room be occupied at any time either by service personnel or
other occasional operators? Typically the answer would be yes as all
equipment needs human intervention at some time.
What Jim is saying is that a Pre-action sprinkler system would actually
be the best choice and the most cost effective with something like
FM-200 as the next choice instead of CO2. There are some serious life
safety issues you must consider when using CO2 in potentially occupied
spaces.
Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Group
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.lg.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Reza
Esmaeili
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 10:59 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Carbon Dioxide System Discharge Time
Jim,
I forgot to explain, the room doesn't have any operators at all, and
carbon dioxide is the best choice.
Thanks,
Reza
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Reza:
I would not recommend a CO2 system as it is potentially too dangerous. I
would consider a clean agent sytem per NFPA 2001.
Hopefully, this is only a back-up to a wet pipe system, which is still
my favorite.
Regards,
James L.(Jim) Roberts, PE, SET
Fluor Corporation
100 Fluor Daniel Drive - C104F
Greenville, SC 29607
864.281.5149
864.281.4916(Fax)
Reza Esmaeili
Sent by: To
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [email protected]
prinkler.org cc
08/23/2007 10:18 AM
Please respond to Subject
sprinklerforum Carbon Dioxide System Discharge Time
Hi all,
For designing a total flooding high pressure carbon dioxide system in a
3,500 cubic feet computer room with electrical equipment and cable runs,
I have specified my room as "Dry electrical hazard" with flooding factor
of
0.083 lb/cubic.feet and 50% design concentration according to NFPA-12.
My questions are as below:
1)- Is a computer room fire a deep seated fire?
2)- NFPA 12 states that "For deep-seated fires, the design concentration
shall be achieved within 7 minutes, but the rate shall be not less than
that required to develop a concentration of 30 percent in 2 minutes." Is
it a problem if the total discharge time would be only 1 minute for this
case?
Many thanks for your help in advance.
Reza
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