Greg, I think they will be in the same boat we are. If you can't find someone to do the work or be the one with the credentials to carry the license you can't do the work.
We've been trying to find a competent designer for almost 2 years, no luck. So if plumbers wanting to do sprinkler design and installation are subject to the same laws and requirements as licensed sprinkler contractors there should be no difference in that versus a new sprinkler contractor opening shop in town. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Group Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ch2m.com -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 10:26 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers With all due respect I think many of you are missing my point. This is not about Plumbers vs Sprinkler Contractor's. It is not about the cost of the system. Where and how are they going to get trained people when we can't? Are they going to immediately have knowledgeable people at their disposal? Are they currently capable of training their huge pool of people to become knowledgeable? HOW are they going to handle this great influx of new work in an industry they do not have experience in? (OBVIOUSLY I am not talking about Plumbers with dual license who know what they are doing!) Are we so inept that we cannot pay people better than average pay and attract them, train them and keep them in the industry and they can? I genuinely want to know the answers because then we could have a bigger pool of designers to pull from, right? And YES, please enforce the code within reason using discretion and judgement. PLEASE weed out the guys putting 1/2" orifice heads and .20 densities in 30' tall warehouses with 24' storage (real situation within the last 2 years and yes it is still there). Please REVIEW drawings and get them corrected prior to construction. Please do NOT wait until the final inspection and wonder why the FDC is not where you wanted it but did not mark it on the drawings at initial review. Please require Owners Information Certificates and protection accordingly. Please do so for everyone that works in your jurisdiction. Thank you, Greg McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC 1160 McKenzie Road Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 Fax: 850-937-1852 -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Drucker Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 8:52 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers Greg, Interesting take on non-compliant work, AHJ's, inspections and so forth. Around these parts I often get accused of "being tough", "enforcing the code" and all sorts of colorful comments. Seems to me that many contractors don't want comprehensive enforcement. Which is it ? I rarely find a field inspection that gets approved the first time around. Big things from SR heads in LH's where QR's are required, Incorrect threads on hose valves, leaky hydros to missing head boxes, spare heads, A/U Certs, missing orifices on test connections, restraint on end pendents over 100psi, etc. etc. Seems that Quality Control is missing. I'm sure other inspectors are heroes, nice guys and the like for not properly enforcing code, the whole things backwards ! Listen, I hear the anguish. Sprinklers are Sprinklers and damn it that's our work !. What I heard in Rochester was plain and clear, cost cost cost. As I've said to my friend Sal Izzo, ya gotta come up with a prescriptive cookie cutter method using that pex the plumbers use that's cheap, simple and fast. As a licensed electrical contractor I can attest to the evolution (I put the sprinkler tools down in 1982 when we were screwing 6" S40) that the electrical trade has seen. We started with BX, yea that metal stuff.... too costly, how about plastic, alas we have Romex.....but still metal boxes and screw clamps....alas plastic boxes just push the wire in no clamps.........but still those pesky screws on the receps...........alas "backstabbing" just push the wire into the back of the receptacle......guess what we may actually see the return of aluminum 12 & 14 romex !, yea some of us remember this from the 60's and 70's. Evolution I suppose, but society has spoken. So what say, can the sprinkler industry meet the challenge with a low cost down and dirty system ? John Drucker Fire Protection Subcode Official (AHJ) New Jersey -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 9:24 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers I said "still" - meaning we already have non-compliant work being performed. I am not casting stones at them without casting it at myself first. If the plumbers or welders or sheetrock finisher's or any other trade could step in and fix our design and labor shortage; they will then become part of our industry and we will learn from them or be pushed out. I consider myself the least of the regular contributors to this forum and I think I am reasonably intelligent. I have beat my head and chest to find a solution to the design problem in my own little world with poor results. I am sure the smarter and more experienced among us have tried even harder and the results have obviously been the same for the industry as a whole. It is not a stretch to say that if another trade can fix our industries' problems then I personally embrace the help and hope I am wise enough to learn what they know and implement it in my life. Thank you, Greg McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC 1160 McKenzie Road Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 Fax: 850-937-1852 -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 8:00 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers Greg, there are enough terrible jobs being done by our own industry that we should refrain from throwing rocks at mechanicals/plumbers. I'm sure, like me, you try very hard to toe the line in your sphere of control, but alas, there are plenty of non-compliant jobs being installed by sprinkies that are either ignorant or relying on "but that's what was specified" if not out-and-out greed. Seriously, how many 30' tall spec/flex buildings are protected to OH2 by sprinkler guys? I'm not saying plumbers are the answer, or that they do better or worse than sprinkler contractors. The reality is we've abandoned the market segment by never showing up in force. glc -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 8:46 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers Ok, so their pond has better candidates for designers than our pond which is the USA? No, they will have unqualified people designing and you are still going to have AHJ's that do not know the code letting them get away with inadequate work. I am sorry but I do not know the answer but bringing in another trade will get more work done, but not done better. Thank you, Greg McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC 1160 McKenzie Road Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 Fax: 850-937-1852 -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Minkel Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 7:25 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers I think the mechanical contractors are fishing in a way bigger pond than the sprinkler contractors are. Bill Minkel, Designer Western States Fire Protection, Dallas NFPA Member #2578666 -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 6:58 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers OK, so the plumbers are going to "miraculously" do what the sprinkler industry can't and immediately discover qualified designers behind the rocks OR they are going to be able to train them effectively when we can not? I am crying foul here - I don't care what code you are using D, R or full 13, the issue is the same. I know we have spent money and time trying to train and I am sure you more experienced guys have spent exponentially more than us "young" guys. The problem is deeper - MANY Americans do not want to work in ANY field and they definitely REFUSE to take responsibility for their own lives and careers. Bring me a person of character and integrity and I can train them and they will work if they have basic natural ability. I have seen many, dozens of people with the natural ability fail repeatedly due to character and integrity issues. I am sure the plumbers will take and perform the work; but I am even more certain that they will have the same problems we already do to a much larger degree and with less accountability. Thank you, Greg McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC 1160 McKenzie Road Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 Fax: 850-937-1852 -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ed Vining Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 12:58 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Fire Systems and Plumbers Not quite. The NEC has the requirements for wiring of fire alarm systems, but NFPA 72 (laughingly called the National Fire Alarm Code) stands on its own. On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 8:56 PM, Timothy W Goins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Big difference, NFPA 72 is part of the electrical code, or it was the > last time I checked. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Drucker > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 8:43 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers > > > > No different then Electrical Contractors that install Line Voltage > Interconnected Smoke/Carbon Monoxide Alarms in Homes versus Alarm > contractors that install Low Voltage Fire Alarm Systems. > > Bottom line its about cost. The plumbing contractor who installs sprinklers > as an extension of the plumbing system is no different then the electrical > contractor who installs smoke alarms as an extension of the > electrical system. > > As for the NFPA, do they really "represent" any particular trade or merely > fire safety interests as a whole ? > > John Drucker > Fire Protection Subcode Official (AHJ) New Jersey > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 7:13 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers > > Booyah! Well put, oh great poobah of sprinkie-stuff. This is the > dirty little secret (or 600-lb. gorilla in the living room, depending > on your > perspective) that I was alluding to in my rant a few weeks back about > large plumbing contractors moving into residential sprinklers. Unless > we (WE, the fire sprinkler community, inclusive) seriously ramp up > our human > and training resources for designers and installers, it will be impossible > to deal with the flood of proposal requests that are > inevitable. This has been recognized and in some cases is already > being acted upon by certain plumbing firms on a regional basis. > > Back to Timothy's question (aren't you glad you opened THIS can of > worms Tim-bo?); presuming it was a Uponor system you saw advertised, keep in > mind that they're market-making right now. And the NFPA Journal is one > of several publications in which they're advertising, along with > Rehau who > manufactures the only other PEX product approved for 13D systems at > the moment. If you don't want to see fire protection ads directed at plumbers, > then you'll also definitely want to avoid PM Engineer and Contractor > magazine too. > > Steve Leyton > Protection Design & Consulting > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Muncy > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 3:01 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Fire Systems and Plumbers > > For multi-systems, there are currently several states that REQUIRE > that a licensed plumber install the system because they are considered > an extension of the domestic water supply. Fire sprinkler contractors > are PROHIBITED from installing such systems, unless of course they > have a plumbing license -- but the system is still being installed > under the plumbing license. And when those systems are inspected, > they will be inspected by Plumbing officials - not the fire marshal. > > Multi-purpose systems have been been recognized as acceptable in > NFPA-13D for a long time but it was not until fairly recently that use > use accelerated. New changes being incorporated into the > International Plumbing Code offer a simplified design for multi- > purpose systems that does not require hydraulic calcs but is based on > distance and water pressure. My understanding is that the NFPA-13D > committee has accepted the language proposed in the IPC proposal. By > the way, it was the International Association of Fire Chiefs who > recommended the code change to add the simplified procedure to the IPC. > > Bottom line is that you are going to see a lot more of these systems > in the future. It is likely that most "lower-end" homes will adopt > the multi-purpose approach and larger, more expensive homes will have > a standalone system. > > When (not IF) the International Residential Code moves the > requirements for sprinklers in single-family dwellings from the > appendix to the body of the code, thus making it required, the number > of residential systems will EXPLODE. Sure, there will be battles on > the local level to remove that requirement, but it is more difficult > to remove a provision from the code on a local level. > > Think about this - based on the number of new homes built in 2007, > each and every fire sprinkler contractor in the country would have to > install 375 single-family fire sprinkler systems. That is how big > this market will eventually be, and most fire sprinkler contractors > don't do many single-family systems when there are plenty of more > lucrative commercial jobs to dedicate the limited number of employees > to. > > If plumbers are going to do this work.... and they will.... let's > just hope that they feel the need to acquire some TRAINING on the > subject before they jump head-first into the fire protection business. > > > > > Steve Muncy, CAE Fire Sprinklers Save Lives! > American Fire Sprinkler Assn. > Dallas, TX > > > > On Mar 24, 2008, at 9:58 AM, Timothy W Goins wrote: > > Why would the NFPA journal, MAR/APR 2008 edition, use an advertiser > > for > residential piping systems that ONLY recommends plumbers to > install > their > product? I know the answer is money, but I thought > they were looking > out for > our industry and it's standards, both > written and installed. > > > > Isn't this like having an architect layout "design" fire sprinkler > > systems? > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ed Vining 4819 John Muir Rd Martinez CA 94553 925-228-879 _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) CONFIDENTIAL AND PROPRIETARY: This email message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged and confidential, nor is it, unless specifically stated, intended to be relied upon by any person or persons other than the individual or entity named above and no warranties or representations are made or intended to persons or entities not named above. 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