One more time. The main reason I started this discussion was the following statement from a dealers Frequently Asked Questions web site:
"Can my plumbing contractor install an Uponor fire protection system? Answer Your plumbing contractor may be Uponor-trained. If not, we can train him/her or help you find one in your area." Yes plumbers can run pipe, yes they can follow instructions but do they have the experience and or knowledge to install a fire sprinkler system? Does the manufacturer really care about the integrity of the system performance? Is the manufacturer qualified to train a plumber to make such judgement calls? It sounds like with a 1 day seminar from the manufacturer's rep they will be installing systems like a fire sprinkler contractor SHOULD be installing them. The problem really is having qualified, knowledgeable people in the office and at the site. Timothy -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Todd Williams - FPDC Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 10:20 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers I have yet to see anything of value for a sprinkler system come out of a pre-fab home builder. I usually refuse to do them, but got suckered into one by a client a couple of years ago for modular apartments. They company had to have PE stamped dimensioned drawings approved by the local AHJ, then they stuck some sticks of CPVC in the truss space, covered most of them with sheetrock and billed for the sprinkler system. There were a total of two glued fittings. By the time we got through with them, they paid for a new retrofit system with Decoshield. At 11:01 AM 3/25/2008, you wrote: >Most new residential developments only have a handfull of different >home models in the entire community. Won't the majority of these >systems be pre-engineered and pre-drawn? > >Justin D. Reid, P.E. >Project Engineer >RLH Fire Protection >3430 Unicorn Road >Bakersfield, CA 93308 >Office: (661) 410-1350 >Cell: (213) 798-0251 >Fax: (661) 322-6816 >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg >McGahan >Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 7:26 AM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers > >With all due respect I think many of you are missing my point. This is >not about Plumbers vs Sprinkler Contractor's. It is not about the cost >of the >system. > >Where and how are they going to get trained people when we can't? Are >they going to immediately have knowledgeable people at their disposal? >Are they >currently capable of training their huge pool of people to become >knowledgeable? HOW are they going to handle this great influx of new >work in >an industry they do not have experience in? (OBVIOUSLY I am not talking >about Plumbers with dual license who know what they are doing!) Are we >so >inept that we cannot pay people better than average pay and attract >them, >train them and keep them in the industry and they can? > >I genuinely want to know the answers because then we could have a >bigger pool of designers to pull from, right? > >And YES, please enforce the code within reason using discretion and >judgement. PLEASE weed out the guys putting 1/2" orifice heads and .20 >densities in 30' tall warehouses with 24' storage (real situation >within the last 2 years and yes it is still there). Please REVIEW >drawings and get them >corrected prior to construction. Please do NOT wait until the final >inspection and wonder why the FDC is not where you wanted it but did not >mark it on the drawings at initial review. Please require Owners >Information >Certificates and protection accordingly. Please do so for everyone that >works in your jurisdiction. > > >Thank you, >Greg McGahan > >Living Water Fire Protection, LLC >1160 McKenzie Road >Cantonment, FL 32533 >850-937-1850 >Fax: 850-937-1852 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John >Drucker >Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 8:52 AM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers > >Greg, > >Interesting take on non-compliant work, AHJ's, inspections and so >forth. > >Around these parts I often get accused of "being tough", "enforcing the >code" and all sorts of colorful comments. Seems to me that many >contractors don't want comprehensive enforcement. Which is it ? > >I rarely find a field inspection that gets approved the first time >around. Big things from SR heads in LH's where QR's are required, >Incorrect threads on hose valves, leaky hydros to missing head boxes, >spare heads, A/U Certs, missing orifices on test connections, restraint >on end pendents over 100psi, etc. etc. Seems that Quality Control is >missing. > >I'm sure other inspectors are heroes, nice guys and the like for not >properly enforcing code, the whole things backwards ! > >Listen, I hear the anguish. Sprinklers are Sprinklers and damn it >that's our work !. What I heard in Rochester was plain and clear, cost >cost cost. As I've said to my friend Sal Izzo, ya gotta come up with a >prescriptive cookie cutter method using that pex the plumbers use >that's cheap, simple and fast. > >As a licensed electrical contractor I can attest to the evolution (I >put the sprinkler tools down in 1982 when we were screwing 6" S40) that >the electrical trade has seen. We started with BX, yea that metal >stuff.... too costly, how about plastic, alas we have Romex.....but >still metal boxes and screw clamps....alas plastic boxes just push the >wire in no clamps.........but still those pesky screws on the >receps...........alas "backstabbing" just push the wire into the back >of the receptacle......guess what we may actually see the return of >aluminum 12 & 14 romex !, yea some of us remember this from the 60's >and 70's. Evolution I suppose, but society has spoken. > >So what say, can the sprinkler industry meet the challenge with a low >cost down and dirty system ? > >John Drucker >Fire Protection Subcode Official (AHJ) >New Jersey > >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg >McGahan >Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 9:24 AM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers > >I said "still" - meaning we already have non-compliant work being >performed. I am not casting stones at them without casting it at myself >first. > >If the plumbers or welders or sheetrock finisher's or any other trade >could step in and fix our design and labor shortage; they will then >become part of our industry and we will learn from them or be pushed >out. I consider myself the least of the regular contributors to this >forum and I think I am reasonably intelligent. I have beat my head and >chest to find a solution to the design problem in my own little world >with poor results. I am sure the smarter and more experienced among us >have tried even harder and the results have obviously been the same for >the industry as a whole. > >It is not a stretch to say that if another trade can fix our >industries' problems then I personally embrace the help and hope I am >wise enough to learn what they know and implement it in my life. > >Thank you, >Greg McGahan > >Living Water Fire Protection, LLC >1160 McKenzie Road >Cantonment, FL 32533 >850-937-1850 >Fax: 850-937-1852 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George >Church >Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 8:00 AM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers > >Greg, there are enough terrible jobs being done by our own industry >that we should refrain from throwing rocks at mechanicals/plumbers. > >I'm sure, like me, you try very hard to toe the line in your sphere of >control, but alas, there are plenty of non-compliant jobs being >installed by sprinkies that are either ignorant or relying on "but >that's what was specified" if not out-and-out greed. > >Seriously, how many 30' tall spec/flex buildings are protected to OH2 >by sprinkler guys? > >I'm not saying plumbers are the answer, or that they do better or worse >than sprinkler contractors. The reality is we've abandoned the market >segment by never showing up in force. > >glc > >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg >McGahan >Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 8:46 AM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers > >Ok, so their pond has better candidates for designers than our pond >which is the USA? No, they will have unqualified people designing and >you are still going to have AHJ's that do not know the code letting >them get away with inadequate work. > >I am sorry but I do not know the answer but bringing in another trade >will get more work done, but not done better. > >Thank you, >Greg McGahan > >Living Water Fire Protection, LLC >1160 McKenzie Road >Cantonment, FL 32533 >850-937-1850 >Fax: 850-937-1852 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill >Minkel >Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 7:25 AM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers > > I think the mechanical contractors are fishing in a way bigger pond >than the sprinkler contractors are. > > >Bill Minkel, Designer >Western States Fire Protection, Dallas >NFPA Member #2578666 > >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg >McGahan >Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 6:58 AM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers > >OK, so the plumbers are going to "miraculously" do what the sprinkler >industry can't and immediately discover qualified designers behind the >rocks OR they are going to be able to train them effectively when we >can not? > >I am crying foul here - I don't care what code you are using D, R or >full 13, the issue is the same. I know we have spent money and time >trying to train and I am sure you more experienced guys have spent >exponentially more than us "young" guys. The problem is deeper - MANY >Americans do not want to work in ANY field and they definitely REFUSE >to take responsibility for their own lives and careers. > >Bring me a person of character and integrity and I can train them and >they will work if they have basic natural ability. I have seen many, >dozens of people with the natural ability fail repeatedly due to >character and integrity issues. > >I am sure the plumbers will take and perform the work; but I am even >more certain that they will have the same problems we already do to a >much larger degree and with less accountability. > >Thank you, >Greg McGahan > >Living Water Fire Protection, LLC >1160 McKenzie Road >Cantonment, FL 32533 >850-937-1850 >Fax: 850-937-1852 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ed >Vining >Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 12:58 AM >To: [email protected] >Subject: Re: Fire Systems and Plumbers > >Not quite. The NEC has the requirements for wiring of fire alarm >systems, but NFPA 72 (laughingly called the National Fire Alarm Code) >stands on its own. > >On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 8:56 PM, Timothy W Goins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >wrote: > > Big difference, NFPA 72 is part of the electrical code, or it was > > the last time I checked. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John >Drucker > > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 8:43 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers > > > > > > > > No different then Electrical Contractors that install Line Voltage > > Interconnected Smoke/Carbon Monoxide Alarms in Homes versus Alarm > > contractors that install Low Voltage Fire Alarm Systems. > > > > Bottom line its about cost. The plumbing contractor who installs >sprinklers > > as an extension of the plumbing system is no different then the >electrical > > contractor who installs smoke alarms as an extension of the > > electrical system. > > > > As for the NFPA, do they really "represent" any particular trade or >merely > > fire safety interests as a whole ? > > > > John Drucker > > Fire Protection Subcode Official (AHJ) New Jersey > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > > Steve >Leyton > > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 7:13 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers > > > > Booyah! Well put, oh great poobah of sprinkie-stuff. This is the > > dirty little secret (or 600-lb. gorilla in the living room, > > depending > > > on your > > perspective) that I was alluding to in my rant a few weeks back > > about large plumbing contractors moving into residential > > sprinklers. >Unless > > we (WE, the fire sprinkler community, inclusive) seriously ramp up > > our >human > > and training resources for designers and installers, it will be >impossible > > to deal with the flood of proposal requests that are > > inevitable. This has been recognized and in some cases is already > > being acted upon by certain plumbing firms on a regional basis. > > > > Back to Timothy's question (aren't you glad you opened THIS can of > > worms Tim-bo?); presuming it was a Uponor system you saw > > advertised, >keep in > > mind that they're market-making right now. And the NFPA Journal is >one > > of several publications in which they're advertising, along with > > Rehau >who > > manufactures the only other PEX product approved for 13D systems at > > the moment. If you don't want to see fire protection ads directed > > at >plumbers, > > then you'll also definitely want to avoid PM Engineer and > > Contractor > > > magazine too. > > > > Steve Leyton > > Protection Design & Consulting > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > > Steve >Muncy > > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 3:01 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: Fire Systems and Plumbers > > > > For multi-systems, there are currently several states that REQUIRE > > that a licensed plumber install the system because they are > > considered > > > an extension of the domestic water supply. Fire sprinkler > > contractors > > > are PROHIBITED from installing such systems, unless of course they > > have a plumbing license -- but the system is still being installed > > under the plumbing license. And when those systems are inspected, > > they will be inspected by Plumbing officials - not the fire marshal. > > > > Multi-purpose systems have been been recognized as acceptable in > > NFPA-13D for a long time but it was not until fairly recently that > > use > > > use accelerated. New changes being incorporated into the > > International Plumbing Code offer a simplified design for multi- > > purpose systems that does not require hydraulic calcs but is based > > on > > > distance and water pressure. My understanding is that the NFPA-13D > > committee has accepted the language proposed in the IPC proposal. > > By > > > the way, it was the International Association of Fire Chiefs who > > recommended the code change to add the simplified procedure to the >IPC. > > > > Bottom line is that you are going to see a lot more of these > > systems > > > in the future. It is likely that most "lower-end" homes will adopt > > the multi-purpose approach and larger, more expensive homes will > > have > > > a standalone system. > > > > When (not IF) the International Residential Code moves the > > requirements for sprinklers in single-family dwellings from the > > appendix to the body of the code, thus making it required, the > > number > > > of residential systems will EXPLODE. Sure, there will be battles on > > the local level to remove that requirement, but it is more difficult > > to remove a provision from the code on a local level. > > > > Think about this - based on the number of new homes built in 2007, > > each and every fire sprinkler contractor in the country would have > > to > > > install 375 single-family fire sprinkler systems. That is how big > > this market will eventually be, and most fire sprinkler contractors > > don't do many single-family systems when there are plenty of more > > lucrative commercial jobs to dedicate the limited number of > > employees > > > to. > > > > If plumbers are going to do this work.... and they will.... let's > > just hope that they feel the need to acquire some TRAINING on the > > subject before they jump head-first into the fire protection >business. > > > > > > > > > > Steve Muncy, CAE Fire Sprinklers Save Lives! > > American Fire Sprinkler Assn. > > Dallas, TX > > > > > > > > On Mar 24, 2008, at 9:58 AM, Timothy W Goins wrote: > > > Why would the NFPA journal, MAR/APR 2008 edition, use an > > advertiser > > > > for > residential piping systems that ONLY recommends plumbers to > > install > their > product? I know the answer is money, but I > > thought > > > they were looking > out for > our industry and it's standards, > > both written and installed. > > > > Isn't this like having an architect layout "design" fire sprinkler > > > > systems? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > >-- >Ed Vining >4819 John Muir Rd >Martinez CA 94553 >925-228-879 >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >To Unsubscribe, send an email >to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >To Unsubscribe, send an email >to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >To Unsubscribe, send an email >to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >To Unsubscribe, send an email >to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >To Unsubscribe, send an email >to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >To Unsubscribe, send an email >to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >CONFIDENTIAL AND PROPRIETARY: >This email message is intended only for the use of the individual or >entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is >privileged and >confidential, nor is it, unless specifically stated, intended to be >relied >upon by any person or persons other than the individual or entity named >above and no warranties or representations are made or intended to >persons >or entities not named above. 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Thank you. > > >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >To Unsubscribe, send an email >to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >To Unsubscribe, send an email >to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >To Unsubscribe, send an email >to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut www.fpdc.com 860.535.2080 _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
