On the nose Rod. On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 8:13 AM, Rod DiBona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Have to agree with Todd here. The reality is that when this comes I > believe it will come in phases especially in regards to demographics. > > Greg I think the whole key to the "where will they find qualified > designers and fitters?" question is the fact that we are talking about > 13D systems here. I think you will have to agree that the main problem > that all of us sprinkler people have is "finding" good qualified > designers because it takes time and training to become good. Good > designers are not generally found. Typically if they are out of work it > is for a reason. They are made from within. Now compare how long it > would take a competent person to become good at doing design on 13D > compared to the systems that most of us deal with on a daily basis. The > same principle goes for the installation. To compare the dilemna that > sprinkler contractors are in with the potential dilemna that the > plumbers could be in is not apples to apples and quite honestly isn't > even close. > > > Rod DiBona > Vice President > Rapid Fire Protection > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > 605-348-2342 ph > 605-391-3553 cell > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John > Drucker > Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 7:52 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers > > Greg, > > Interesting take on non-compliant work, AHJ's, inspections and so forth. > > Around these parts I often get accused of "being tough", "enforcing the > code" and all sorts of colorful comments. Seems to me that many > contractors don't want comprehensive enforcement. Which is it ? > > I rarely find a field inspection that gets approved the first time > around. Big things from SR heads in LH's where QR's are required, > Incorrect threads on hose valves, leaky hydros to missing head boxes, > spare heads, A/U Certs, missing orifices on test connections, restraint > on end pendents over 100psi, etc. etc. Seems that Quality Control is > missing. > > I'm sure other inspectors are heroes, nice guys and the like for not > properly enforcing code, the whole things backwards ! > > Listen, I hear the anguish. Sprinklers are Sprinklers and damn it that's > our work !. What I heard in Rochester was plain and clear, cost cost > cost. As I've said to my friend Sal Izzo, ya gotta come up with a > prescriptive cookie cutter method using that pex the plumbers use that's > cheap, simple and fast. > > As a licensed electrical contractor I can attest to the evolution (I put > the sprinkler tools down in 1982 when we were screwing 6" S40) that the > electrical trade has seen. We started with BX, yea that metal stuff.... > too costly, how about plastic, alas we have Romex.....but still metal > boxes and screw clamps....alas plastic boxes just push the wire in no > clamps.........but still those pesky screws on the receps...........alas > "backstabbing" just push the wire into the back of the > receptacle......guess what we may actually see the return of aluminum 12 > & 14 romex !, yea some of us remember this from the 60's and 70's. > Evolution I suppose, but society has spoken. > > So what say, can the sprinkler industry meet the challenge with a low > cost down and dirty system ? > > John Drucker > Fire Protection Subcode Official (AHJ) > New Jersey > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg > McGahan > Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 9:24 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers > > I said "still" - meaning we already have non-compliant work being > performed. > I am not casting stones at them without casting it at myself first. > > If the plumbers or welders or sheetrock finisher's or any other trade > could step in and fix our design and labor shortage; they will then > become part of our industry and we will learn from them or be pushed > out. I consider myself the least of the regular contributors to this > forum and I think I am reasonably intelligent. I have beat my head and > chest to find a solution to the design problem in my own little world > with poor results. I am sure the smarter and more experienced among us > have tried even harder and the results have obviously been the same for > the industry as a whole. > > It is not a stretch to say that if another trade can fix our industries' > problems then I personally embrace the help and hope I am wise enough to > learn what they know and implement it in my life. > > Thank you, > Greg McGahan > > Living Water Fire Protection, LLC > 1160 McKenzie Road > Cantonment, FL 32533 > 850-937-1850 > Fax: 850-937-1852 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George > Church > Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 8:00 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers > > Greg, there are enough terrible jobs being done by our own industry that > we should refrain from throwing rocks at mechanicals/plumbers. > > I'm sure, like me, you try very hard to toe the line in your sphere of > control, but alas, there are plenty of non-compliant jobs being > installed by sprinkies that are either ignorant or relying on "but > that's what was specified" if not out-and-out greed. > > Seriously, how many 30' tall spec/flex buildings are protected to OH2 by > sprinkler guys? > > I'm not saying plumbers are the answer, or that they do better or worse > than sprinkler contractors. The reality is we've abandoned the market > segment by never showing up in force. > > glc > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg > McGahan > Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 8:46 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers > > Ok, so their pond has better candidates for designers than our pond > which is the USA? No, they will have unqualified people designing and > you are still going to have AHJ's that do not know the code letting them > get away with inadequate work. > > I am sorry but I do not know the answer but bringing in another trade > will get more work done, but not done better. > > Thank you, > Greg McGahan > > Living Water Fire Protection, LLC > 1160 McKenzie Road > Cantonment, FL 32533 > 850-937-1850 > Fax: 850-937-1852 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill > Minkel > Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 7:25 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers > > I think the mechanical contractors are fishing in a way bigger pond > than the sprinkler contractors are. > > > Bill Minkel, Designer > Western States Fire Protection, Dallas > NFPA Member #2578666 > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg > McGahan > Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 6:58 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers > > OK, so the plumbers are going to "miraculously" do what the sprinkler > industry can't and immediately discover qualified designers behind the > rocks OR they are going to be able to train them effectively when we can > not? > > I am crying foul here - I don't care what code you are using D, R or > full 13, the issue is the same. I know we have spent money and time > trying to train and I am sure you more experienced guys have spent > exponentially more than us "young" guys. The problem is deeper - MANY > Americans do not want to work in ANY field and they definitely REFUSE to > take responsibility for their own lives and careers. > > Bring me a person of character and integrity and I can train them and > they will work if they have basic natural ability. I have seen many, > dozens of people with the natural ability fail repeatedly due to > character and integrity issues. > > I am sure the plumbers will take and perform the work; but I am even > more certain that they will have the same problems we already do to a > much larger degree and with less accountability. > > Thank you, > Greg McGahan > > Living Water Fire Protection, LLC > 1160 McKenzie Road > Cantonment, FL 32533 > 850-937-1850 > Fax: 850-937-1852 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ed Vining > Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 12:58 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Fire Systems and Plumbers > > Not quite. The NEC has the requirements for wiring of fire alarm > systems, but NFPA 72 (laughingly called the National Fire Alarm Code) > stands on its own. > > On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 8:56 PM, Timothy W Goins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > Big difference, NFPA 72 is part of the electrical code, or it was the > > last time I checked. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John > Drucker > > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 8:43 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers > > > > > > > > No different then Electrical Contractors that install Line Voltage > > Interconnected Smoke/Carbon Monoxide Alarms in Homes versus Alarm > > contractors that install Low Voltage Fire Alarm Systems. > > > > Bottom line its about cost. The plumbing contractor who installs > sprinklers > > as an extension of the plumbing system is no different then the > electrical > > contractor who installs smoke alarms as an extension of the > > electrical system. > > > > As for the NFPA, do they really "represent" any particular trade or > merely > > fire safety interests as a whole ? > > > > John Drucker > > Fire Protection Subcode Official (AHJ) New Jersey > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve > Leyton > > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 7:13 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers > > > > Booyah! Well put, oh great poobah of sprinkie-stuff. This is the > > dirty little secret (or 600-lb. gorilla in the living room, depending > > > on your > > perspective) that I was alluding to in my rant a few weeks back about > > > large plumbing contractors moving into residential sprinklers. > Unless > > we (WE, the fire sprinkler community, inclusive) seriously ramp up > > our > human > > and training resources for designers and installers, it will be > impossible > > to deal with the flood of proposal requests that are > > inevitable. This has been recognized and in some cases is already > > being acted upon by certain plumbing firms on a regional basis. > > > > Back to Timothy's question (aren't you glad you opened THIS can of > > worms Tim-bo?); presuming it was a Uponor system you saw advertised, > keep in > > mind that they're market-making right now. And the NFPA Journal is > one > > of several publications in which they're advertising, along with > > Rehau > who > > manufactures the only other PEX product approved for 13D systems at > > the moment. If you don't want to see fire protection ads directed at > plumbers, > > then you'll also definitely want to avoid PM Engineer and Contractor > > > magazine too. > > > > Steve Leyton > > Protection Design & Consulting > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve > Muncy > > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 3:01 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: Fire Systems and Plumbers > > > > For multi-systems, there are currently several states that REQUIRE > > that a licensed plumber install the system because they are considered > > > an extension of the domestic water supply. Fire sprinkler contractors > > > are PROHIBITED from installing such systems, unless of course they > > have a plumbing license -- but the system is still being installed > > under the plumbing license. And when those systems are inspected, > > they will be inspected by Plumbing officials - not the fire marshal. > > > > Multi-purpose systems have been been recognized as acceptable in > > NFPA-13D for a long time but it was not until fairly recently that use > > > use accelerated. New changes being incorporated into the > > International Plumbing Code offer a simplified design for multi- > > purpose systems that does not require hydraulic calcs but is based on > > > distance and water pressure. My understanding is that the NFPA-13D > > committee has accepted the language proposed in the IPC proposal. By > > > the way, it was the International Association of Fire Chiefs who > > recommended the code change to add the simplified procedure to the > IPC. > > > > Bottom line is that you are going to see a lot more of these systems > > > in the future. It is likely that most "lower-end" homes will adopt > > the multi-purpose approach and larger, more expensive homes will have > > > a standalone system. > > > > When (not IF) the International Residential Code moves the > > requirements for sprinklers in single-family dwellings from the > > appendix to the body of the code, thus making it required, the number > > > of residential systems will EXPLODE. Sure, there will be battles on > > the local level to remove that requirement, but it is more difficult > > to remove a provision from the code on a local level. > > > > Think about this - based on the number of new homes built in 2007, > > each and every fire sprinkler contractor in the country would have to > > > install 375 single-family fire sprinkler systems. That is how big > > this market will eventually be, and most fire sprinkler contractors > > don't do many single-family systems when there are plenty of more > > lucrative commercial jobs to dedicate the limited number of employees > > > to. > > > > If plumbers are going to do this work.... and they will.... let's > > just hope that they feel the need to acquire some TRAINING on the > > subject before they jump head-first into the fire protection > business. > > > > > > > > > > Steve Muncy, CAE Fire Sprinklers Save Lives! > > American Fire Sprinkler Assn. > > Dallas, TX > > > > > > > > On Mar 24, 2008, at 9:58 AM, Timothy W Goins wrote: > > > Why would the NFPA journal, MAR/APR 2008 edition, use an advertiser > > > > for > residential piping systems that ONLY recommends plumbers to > > install > their > product? I know the answer is money, but I thought > > > they were looking > out for > our industry and it's standards, both > > written and installed. > > > > > > Isn't this like having an architect layout "design" fire sprinkler > > > > systems? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > > -- > Ed Vining > 4819 John Muir Rd > Martinez CA 94553 > 925-228-879 > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > CONFIDENTIAL AND PROPRIETARY: > This email message is intended only for the use of the individual or > entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is > privileged and confidential, nor is it, unless specifically stated, > intended to be relied upon by any person or persons other than the > individual or entity named above and no warranties or representations > are made or intended to persons or entities not named above. 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