I believe it is safe to say that if you are doing seismic calc's, you would want to do them per 2007, as ASCE had some very real concerns and problems with both the means and methods we used in the 2002 guidelines. You may be justified in using 2002, because it is the adopted standard, but if you do so knowing there are problems with it, and a better solution was available(2007), if not adopted, some lawyer's going to have you for lunch should you ever end up in court.
Most AHJ's don't have a problem with you using a newer version of the standard, if you show them first. Even if you only use part of it. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eckard, Mark - Mark E Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 7:00 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Seismic Calcs I was referring to the 2002 Edition of NFPA which is still adopted by a majority of the US. Mark E. Eckard S.E.T. Engineering Manager Lowe's Companies 1605 Curtis Bridge Road REEC Dock Wilkesboro, N.C. 28697 Phone: (336) 658-4359 Fax: (336) 658-3257 Cell: (336) 467-0194 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 1:14 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Seismic Calcs Mark, Can you give me some background on where you've come to this conclusion on seismic design category D and higher not being within the scope of NFPA-13? My latest ASCE7 manual seems to suggest otherwise. PARSLEY CONSULTING Ken Wagoner, SET 760.745.6181 voice 760.745.0537 fax [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> e-mail www.ParsleyConsulting.com <http://www.ParsleyConsulting.com> website Eckard, Mark - Mark E wrote: > Another issue with seismic bracing design and calculation is the fact > that NFPA 13 only applies to seismic design category A, B, & C. > Categories "A" and "B" usually do not require bracing unless it is a > local jurisdictional requirement to brace everything. Seismic design > category D and higher are out of the scope of NFPA-13 and require design > by a Professional Engineer. So in summary NFPA is good for Seismic > design category "C". > I have come to realize that quite a large number of designers don't > realize this. > > Mark E. Eckard S.E.T. > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve > Leyton > Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 11:33 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Seismic Calcs > > If you consider this issue in terms of the 2007 standard, the sprinkler > system EQB designs are based on standard values that can be taken from > referenced sources (such as ASCE). You then plug the values into > equations prescribed by NFPA 13 and you get a finalized design > (basically, you confirm the fastener or means of anchorage for the brace > assembly). None of which takes into account the capacity of the > building itself to bear the applied loads that have been calculated, but > you don't need the help of an SE to simply design the braces. > > Once upon a time, we did our designs on a deferred basis, showed EQB's > every 40', picked a hanger based on the type of structural member and > submitted for approval. Today, especially here in the Southwest, we > consult the project structural engineer of record on every project. > Modern lightweight construction systems, engineered wood products and > high seismic force values often mean that even if one could design a > brace assembly that bears enough load to space out to 40' on center, you > simply can't put 600, or 700 or 800 lbs. of horizontal load on the floor > or roof framing. We currently have projects where bracing is limited to > 25-30' on center, just to dilute the load on each brace. > > Southern California has several fire departments that now REQUIRE review > by the SE of record and an accompanying letter of acceptance. This > speaks to the original question of what to put on the shop drawings - > perhaps nothing, if you can submit documentation of a 3rd-party review. > I know that this is another step that most in our industry have never > undertaken and generally doesn't account for in estimating design costs, > but I strongly recommend that every project be submitted to the > Architect for review by the designer(s) of record before submittal to > the FD. And if you're in a region that is just now breaking into the > whole "seismic thing", I would also craft language into my standard > proposal form that excludes costs for review by structural engineer as > may be required. > > Steve Leyton > Protection Design & Consulting > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Todd > Williams - FPDC > Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 7:51 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Seismic Calcs > > Bill, > > I think that you may have discovered another disconnect between theory > and practice. To my knowledge, none of the AHJs in my area have either > the expertise or staff to do a review on seismic. My guess is that > they are just going to say "yes, there is seismic". > That is pretty much what I see now and I don't see it changing, given > municipal budgeting. The exception could possibly be in larger cities > or at the state level. The structural engineer from the design team > (assuming that there is one) would be the only person qualified to do > an actual review. Whether they ever see sprinkler shop drawings is > questionable. > > > At 10:02 AM 5/28/2008, you wrote: > >> NFPA 13-2007, 22.1.3(39) requires "Calculation of loads for sizing and >> details of sway bracing". What should a typical shop drawing package >> include so that the selected sway bracing can be approved? >> >> Who reviews these calculations prior to submission to the AHJ? Do AHJs >> pass these on to structural design reviewers, or are the sprinkler >> installer's submittals accepted without review? >> >> Bill Brooks >> >> William N. Brooks, P.E. >> Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. >> 372 Wilett Drive >> Severna Park, MD 21146 >> 410-544-3620 Phone >> 410-544-3032 FAX >> 412-400-6528 Cell >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email >> > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> > > Todd G. Williams, PE > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > Stonington, Connecticut > www.fpdc.com > 860.535.2080 > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
