So if you could have your say, what would be the desired deliverable from the 
AE?  Would you want to see a pile of drawings, a CD full of drawings, a walk 
through of the building via some 3D magic or what?

3D cad hasn't been around forever, when I first started in this business it was 
ink on mylar and you got copies of everyone else's drawings to do your 
coordination.   The only computers were on the Starship Enterprise.


Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Specialist
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.ch2m.com


-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 1:54 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: LAK OF CO-ORDINATION

This is typically what we all see. "Sprinkler shall co-ordinate with all 
trades" MEANING "If I get here first you'll have to move even if your drawings 
are the only ones that give elevation and distance off walls and column lines"

Remember when we used to get "Duct Shop Drawings" that had duct sizes, BOD 
(bottom of duct) showed where they were off of the structure in feet and 
inches. Now every duct guy just installs off the MPE drawings with no 
elevations or set distances, just because it's on cad. It leaves you to guess 
if his fittings are FOB (Flat on Top) or FOB (Flat on Bottom) Why are there 
more change orders? Because the engineering community hasn't increased their 
Level of Care, to reflect that their bid drawings are now the shop drawings for 
the MPE trades.

Yeah we all hear the 3D will make this change order thing go away, just like a 
"Paperless society" Computers and printers have only made more paper usage 
easier. When was the last time you bought a printer that printed fewer pages 
per min than the one it replaced? More paper + more CYA, so when in double 
print it out, in case the computer crashes. 3D can help with co-ordination, but 
only to the level of expertise of the person inputting the data. Usually a IT 
geek or nerd, not the PE, and rarely anyone with actual hands on experience of 
how it really goes together.

Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel:  970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926



 (sprinkler) can go around us. It's like a 3D retrofit. The only thing that 
changes is we spend more design time to come up with the same product.
Besides we FP contractors have been doing 3D since the beginning of time, it's 
just that the presentation has been 2D.

Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic
Phoenix, AZ

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