I'd say that connecting diesel fire pump(s) (and large electric jockey?) to a 250,000 gal tank that is suitable for industrial process water, perhaps built to AWWA standards, is far superior to relying on elec well pumps even with backup power; even if the tank isn't compliant to #22.
Wow- that's not an hour duration at 5,000 GPM system, hose, and "misc/process/dom". Good thing you'd have substantial well refill or as a direct connection to UG loop. Point out that increasing 250k gal to 400k is a smaller cost than starting over with dedicated FP tank, and for $20k might comply with 22 if significant insurance savings $ could be gained. Glc Connection to a big tank is better than no tank, but that's not any official proclamation by nfpa, just by former member of 22. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 8:58 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Wells as a water source This project is still in the concept stage so there are many unanswered questions. The well information (flow and pressure) is coming from the well drilling company. Well history in this area is consistent and wells are deemed extremely reliable, apparently the locals had never had an issue with supply nor have been affected by droughts. I have asked for an aquifer performance analysis or other records relating to the supply. Yes these will be new wells for this site. These wells will be used for potable and process water supply. They are planning on putting in a 250,000 gallon process water storage tank but flat out said they didn't want a fire water tank. There has been no mention of putting the well pumps on backup power. That is one of my concerns but since they are not fire pumps I have not been able to find any code directive stating that they must be on backup power. From a protection standpoint it makes perfect sense but in today's economy if an owner isn't required to do something they are not going to volunteer to spend money. So their idea is that the wells be tied into a fire pump that serves a loop with hydrants and the local fire protection systems for the structures on site. No tank. At this point I don't even have enough data to do a hazards analysis so in the end the 4500 gpm may not even be enough. A good sized deluge system could take care of that in a hurry. So while it appears that conditions and codes may permit the wells without a lot of restrictions, there may be other design issues that render them impractical or even unusable. My preference would be a tank, either standalone or in combination with the process water storage and diesel pump package. Then just use the wells for tank refill. Thanks for all the input, Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [email protected] http://www.ch2m.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 9:10 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Wells as a water source And why would a secondary pump that's diesel be more reliable than an electric pump with back up power? Particularly since the well pumps are going to be electric and you don't mention any back-up at all for them. No water coming out of the well means no water for the fire pump. I've lost some part of this I'm sure. On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 3:11 PM, Todd Williams <[email protected]> wrote: > Where are you getting the well criteria? 1500 gpm out of a well > probably means you are hitting an aquifer. Three of them and it is > 4500 gpm. That's a lot of water. Where does the 26 psi come from? Is > this based on other wells in the area? (My assumption is that they are > to be new wells, not existing). Is there any sort of state or regional > water planning or advisory board? They might have a say on this sort > of thing. I am on one up here and they would definitely want to know > about something like that. Are they going to use these wells for > process water as well as fire? > > It sounds like a potential 55 gallon drum of worms. > > > > At 04:57 PM 4/13/2010, you wrote: >>We've got a rural chemical processing plant. No real municipal water >>supply. Owner wants to use wells, 3 at 1500 gpm each with an >>estimated, pumped residual pressure of approximately 26 psi at the surface. >> >>So there will be a pump within the well supplying water to a multi-use >>water main which will then branch off to feed the fire pumps. It is >>their desire not to have a fire water tank. >> >>Well water supply is supposed to be extremely reliable in this area. >> >>At this stage of the game maximum system demand is yet to be determined. >> >>The question is what are the issues with having a well pump or pumps >>serving a fire pump? Any restrictions or things to consider? I have >>found nothing giving any specific guidelines concerning this >>arrangement. I've looked at NFPA 20, 2007, 7.2 and NFPA 1142 and it >>appears that a dedicated fire well is presumed. These wells are going >>to be costly so they will not want to drill wells dedicated to FP only. >> >> >>Craig L. Prahl, CET >>Fire Protection Specialist >>Mechanical Department >>CH2MHILL >>Lockwood Greene >>1500 International Drive >>PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - >>864.599.8439 [email protected] http://www.ch2m.com >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Sprinklerforum mailing list >>[email protected] >>http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >>For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >>To Unsubscribe, send an email >>to:[email protected] >>(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > Todd G. Williams, PE > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > Stonington, CT > 860.535.2080 > www.fpdc.com > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Bates Technical College Tacoma, WA Member: SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
