_ Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: Roland Huggins <[email protected]> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 11:03:44 To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Wells as a water source
That ice is so thin it wouldn't even creak before falling through it. If (in order of priority) the AHJ and the insurance group blesses it, full steam ahead. That doesn't mean if there is a problem, you are off the liability hook but it is on opinion. Since this thread is now overly redundant, I'm letting it go. Roland On Apr 14, 2010, at 10:51 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Well, by inference through NFPA 13, 2007, A.23.1.8 there is > reference to "driven wells" when referring to other sources of water > and the need for a particular backflow preventer. Based on that > wording it could be interpreted that NFPA 13 does allow by > inclusion, driven (pumped) wells as a source for above ground fire > sprinkler systems. Since 23.2.5 lists other natural water resources > and no specific exclusion of wells is mentioned, one might conclude > that a natural water source would be permitted. > > > Craig L. Prahl, CET > Fire Protection Specialist > Mechanical Department > CH2MHILL > Lockwood Greene > 1500 International Drive > PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 > Direct - 864.599.4102 > Fax - 864.599.8439 > [email protected] > http://www.ch2m.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected] > ] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins > Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 1:23 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Wells as a water source > > you bring up an interesting point. The pump boys have indeed > introduced the use of a well but you are interpreting WELL > incorrectly. IN this case it is not a pipe with a pump on top of it. > It is a hole in the ground that is feeding a vertical turbine pump > (noting it is in section 7.2). So we are still facing the fact that > the sprinkler boys have not said a well pump is allowed for THEIR > system. > > Roland > > On Apr 14, 2010, at 7:45 AM, <[email protected]> <[email protected] > > wrote: > >> 2007 - NFPA 20, Section 7.2 Water Supply, gives plenty of information >> regarding wells as water source. NFPA 1142 also provides some >> guidance while not making recommendations for plants such as this. >> So >> there is information outside of the NFPA 13 set for this type of >> supply. While not optimum, there are cases where it is the only >> source. Where the reliability may be questioned it would obviously >> be >> prudent to specify a storage tank as the primary source. >> >> At this stage of the project they have no procedures for anything. >> This is the concept stage where you weed out all the potential >> problems, irregularities, and obstacles and then work with the client >> and local AHJ's to come to a resolution. >> >> >> Craig L. Prahl, CET >> Fire Protection Specialist >> Mechanical Department >> CH2MHILL >> Lockwood Greene >> 1500 International Drive >> PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 >> Direct - 864.599.4102 >> Fax - 864.599.8439 >> [email protected] >> http://www.ch2m.com >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected] >> ] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins >> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 10:34 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: Wells as a water source >> >> i Since only 13D allows the use of a domestic well as a water >> supply, what is your basis for saying - it appears the codes permit >> it? In other words, your argument doesn't hold water. What you >> need to do is determine whether their domestic supply is equivalent >> to the reliability of a public water works. What is their process >> for monitoring and procedure for responding to problems? >> >> Roland >> >> On Apr 14, 2010, at 5:58 AM, <[email protected]> <[email protected] >>> wrote: >> >>> This project is still in the concept stage so there are many >>> unanswered questions. >>> >>> The well information (flow and pressure) is coming from the well >>> drilling company. Well history in this area is consistent and wells >>> are deemed extremely reliable, apparently the locals had never had >>> an >>> issue with supply nor have been affected by droughts. I have asked >>> for an aquifer performance analysis or other records relating to the >>> supply. Yes these will be new wells for this site. >>> >>> These wells will be used for potable and process water supply. They >>> are planning on putting in a 250,000 gallon process water storage >>> tank >>> but flat out said they didn't want a fire water tank. >>> >>> There has been no mention of putting the well pumps on backup power. >>> That is one of my concerns but since they are not fire pumps I have >>> not been able to find any code directive stating that they must be >>> on >>> backup power. From a protection standpoint it makes perfect sense >>> but >>> in today's economy if an owner isn't required to do something they >>> are >>> not going to volunteer to spend money. >>> >>> So their idea is that the wells be tied into a fire pump that >>> serves a >>> loop with hydrants and the local fire protection systems for the >>> structures on site. No tank. At this point I don't even have >>> enough >>> data to do a hazards analysis so in the end the 4500 gpm may not >>> even >>> be enough. A good sized deluge system could take care of that in a >>> hurry. >>> >>> So while it appears that conditions and codes may permit the wells >>> without a lot of restrictions, there may be other design issues that >>> render them impractical or even unusable. My preference would be a >>> tank, either standalone or in combination with the process water >>> storage and diesel pump package. Then just use the wells for tank >>> refill. >>> >>> Thanks for all the input, >>> >>> Craig L. Prahl, CET >>> Fire Protection Specialist >>> Mechanical Department >>> CH2MHILL >>> Lockwood Greene >>> 1500 International Drive >>> PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - >>> 864.599.8439 [email protected] http://www.ch2m.com >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [email protected] >>> [mailto:[email protected] >>> ] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 9:10 PM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: Re: Wells as a water source >>> >>> And why would a secondary pump that's diesel be more reliable than >>> an >>> electric pump with back up power? Particularly since the well pumps >>> are going to be electric and you don't mention any back-up at all >>> for >>> them. No water coming out of the well means no water for the fire >>> pump. I've lost some part of this I'm sure. >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 3:11 PM, Todd Williams <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> Where are you getting the well criteria? 1500 gpm out of a well >>>> probably means you are hitting an aquifer. Three of them and it is >>>> 4500 gpm. That's a lot of water. Where does the 26 psi come from? >>>> Is >>>> this based on other wells in the area? (My assumption is that they >>>> are to be new wells, not existing). Is there any sort of state or >>>> regional water planning or advisory board? They might have a say on >>>> this sort of thing. I am on one up here and they would definitely >>>> want to know about something like that. Are they going to use these >>>> wells for process water as well as fire? >>>> >>>> It sounds like a potential 55 gallon drum of worms. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> At 04:57 PM 4/13/2010, you wrote: >>>>> We've got a rural chemical processing plant. No real municipal >>>>> water supply. Owner wants to use wells, 3 at 1500 gpm each with >>>>> an >>>>> estimated, pumped residual pressure of approximately 26 psi at the >>>>> surface. >>>>> >>>>> So there will be a pump within the well supplying water to a >>>>> multi- >>>>> use water main which will then branch off to feed the fire pumps. >>>>> It is their desire not to have a fire water tank. >>>>> >>>>> Well water supply is supposed to be extremely reliable in this >>>>> area. >>>>> >>>>> At this stage of the game maximum system demand is yet to be >>>>> determined. >>>>> >>>>> The question is what are the issues with having a well pump or >>>>> pumps >>>>> serving a fire pump? Any restrictions or things to consider? I >>>>> have found nothing giving any specific guidelines concerning this >>>>> arrangement. I've looked at NFPA 20, 2007, 7.2 and NFPA 1142 and >>>>> it >>>>> appears that a dedicated fire well is presumed. These wells are >>>>> going to be costly so they will not want to drill wells dedicated >>>>> to >>>>> FP only. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Craig L. Prahl, CET >>>>> Fire Protection Specialist >>>>> Mechanical Department >>>>> CH2MHILL >>>>> Lockwood Greene >>>>> 1500 International Drive >>>>> PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 >>>>> Fax - >>>>> 864.599.8439 [email protected] http://www.ch2m.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>>>> >>>>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >>>>> to:[email protected] >>>>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>>> >>>> Todd G. Williams, PE >>>> Fire Protection Design/Consulting >>>> Stonington, CT >>>> 860.535.2080 >>>> www.fpdc.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>>> >>>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >>>> to:[email protected] >>>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Ron Greenman >>> Instructor >>> Fire Protection Engineering >>> Bates Technical College >>> Tacoma, WA >>> >>> Member: >>> SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>> >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >>> [email protected] >>> >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >>> to:[email protected] >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>> >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >>> [email protected] >>> >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >>> to:[email protected] >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
