Well, by inference through NFPA 13, 2007, A.23.1.8 there is reference to "driven wells" when referring to other sources of water and the need for a particular backflow preventer. Based on that wording it could be interpreted that NFPA 13 does allow by inclusion, driven (pumped) wells as a source for above ground fire sprinkler systems. Since 23.2.5 lists other natural water resources and no specific exclusion of wells is mentioned, one might conclude that a natural water source would be permitted.
Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [email protected] http://www.ch2m.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 1:23 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Wells as a water source you bring up an interesting point. The pump boys have indeed introduced the use of a well but you are interpreting WELL incorrectly. IN this case it is not a pipe with a pump on top of it. It is a hole in the ground that is feeding a vertical turbine pump (noting it is in section 7.2). So we are still facing the fact that the sprinkler boys have not said a well pump is allowed for THEIR system. Roland On Apr 14, 2010, at 7:45 AM, <[email protected]> <[email protected] > wrote: > 2007 - NFPA 20, Section 7.2 Water Supply, gives plenty of information > regarding wells as water source. NFPA 1142 also provides some > guidance while not making recommendations for plants such as this. So > there is information outside of the NFPA 13 set for this type of > supply. While not optimum, there are cases where it is the only > source. Where the reliability may be questioned it would obviously be > prudent to specify a storage tank as the primary source. > > At this stage of the project they have no procedures for anything. > This is the concept stage where you weed out all the potential > problems, irregularities, and obstacles and then work with the client > and local AHJ's to come to a resolution. > > > Craig L. Prahl, CET > Fire Protection Specialist > Mechanical Department > CH2MHILL > Lockwood Greene > 1500 International Drive > PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 > Direct - 864.599.4102 > Fax - 864.599.8439 > [email protected] > http://www.ch2m.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected] > ] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins > Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 10:34 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Wells as a water source > > i Since only 13D allows the use of a domestic well as a water > supply, what is your basis for saying - it appears the codes permit > it? In other words, your argument doesn't hold water. What you > need to do is determine whether their domestic supply is equivalent > to the reliability of a public water works. What is their process > for monitoring and procedure for responding to problems? > > Roland > > On Apr 14, 2010, at 5:58 AM, <[email protected]> <[email protected] > > wrote: > >> This project is still in the concept stage so there are many >> unanswered questions. >> >> The well information (flow and pressure) is coming from the well >> drilling company. Well history in this area is consistent and wells >> are deemed extremely reliable, apparently the locals had never had an >> issue with supply nor have been affected by droughts. I have asked >> for an aquifer performance analysis or other records relating to the >> supply. Yes these will be new wells for this site. >> >> These wells will be used for potable and process water supply. They >> are planning on putting in a 250,000 gallon process water storage >> tank >> but flat out said they didn't want a fire water tank. >> >> There has been no mention of putting the well pumps on backup power. >> That is one of my concerns but since they are not fire pumps I have >> not been able to find any code directive stating that they must be on >> backup power. From a protection standpoint it makes perfect sense but >> in today's economy if an owner isn't required to do something they >> are >> not going to volunteer to spend money. >> >> So their idea is that the wells be tied into a fire pump that >> serves a >> loop with hydrants and the local fire protection systems for the >> structures on site. No tank. At this point I don't even have enough >> data to do a hazards analysis so in the end the 4500 gpm may not even >> be enough. A good sized deluge system could take care of that in a >> hurry. >> >> So while it appears that conditions and codes may permit the wells >> without a lot of restrictions, there may be other design issues that >> render them impractical or even unusable. My preference would be a >> tank, either standalone or in combination with the process water >> storage and diesel pump package. Then just use the wells for tank >> refill. >> >> Thanks for all the input, >> >> Craig L. Prahl, CET >> Fire Protection Specialist >> Mechanical Department >> CH2MHILL >> Lockwood Greene >> 1500 International Drive >> PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - >> 864.599.8439 [email protected] http://www.ch2m.com >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected] >> ] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman >> Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 9:10 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: Wells as a water source >> >> And why would a secondary pump that's diesel be more reliable than an >> electric pump with back up power? Particularly since the well pumps >> are going to be electric and you don't mention any back-up at all for >> them. No water coming out of the well means no water for the fire >> pump. I've lost some part of this I'm sure. >> >> On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 3:11 PM, Todd Williams <[email protected]> wrote: >>> Where are you getting the well criteria? 1500 gpm out of a well >>> probably means you are hitting an aquifer. Three of them and it is >>> 4500 gpm. That's a lot of water. Where does the 26 psi come from? >>> Is >>> this based on other wells in the area? (My assumption is that they >>> are to be new wells, not existing). Is there any sort of state or >>> regional water planning or advisory board? They might have a say on >>> this sort of thing. I am on one up here and they would definitely >>> want to know about something like that. Are they going to use these >>> wells for process water as well as fire? >>> >>> It sounds like a potential 55 gallon drum of worms. >>> >>> >>> >>> At 04:57 PM 4/13/2010, you wrote: >>>> We've got a rural chemical processing plant. No real municipal >>>> water supply. Owner wants to use wells, 3 at 1500 gpm each with an >>>> estimated, pumped residual pressure of approximately 26 psi at the >>>> surface. >>>> >>>> So there will be a pump within the well supplying water to a multi- >>>> use water main which will then branch off to feed the fire pumps. >>>> It is their desire not to have a fire water tank. >>>> >>>> Well water supply is supposed to be extremely reliable in this >>>> area. >>>> >>>> At this stage of the game maximum system demand is yet to be >>>> determined. >>>> >>>> The question is what are the issues with having a well pump or >>>> pumps >>>> serving a fire pump? Any restrictions or things to consider? I >>>> have found nothing giving any specific guidelines concerning this >>>> arrangement. I've looked at NFPA 20, 2007, 7.2 and NFPA 1142 and >>>> it >>>> appears that a dedicated fire well is presumed. These wells are >>>> going to be costly so they will not want to drill wells dedicated >>>> to >>>> FP only. >>>> >>>> >>>> Craig L. Prahl, CET >>>> Fire Protection Specialist >>>> Mechanical Department >>>> CH2MHILL >>>> Lockwood Greene >>>> 1500 International Drive >>>> PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - >>>> 864.599.8439 [email protected] http://www.ch2m.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>>> >>>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >>>> to:[email protected] >>>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>> >>> Todd G. Williams, PE >>> Fire Protection Design/Consulting >>> Stonington, CT >>> 860.535.2080 >>> www.fpdc.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>> >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >>> [email protected] >>> >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >>> to:[email protected] >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Ron Greenman >> Instructor >> Fire Protection Engineering >> Bates Technical College >> Tacoma, WA >> >> Member: >> SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email >> to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email >> to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
