Greg, it sounds like you're defining the scope of your work like an Engineer of Record would do.
The TC list is on the nfpa codes and stds website, and both AFSA and NFSA will provide "informal interpretations for members- we use this frequently to provide documentation to support our position when the AHJ interp differs from what we read. I had a fire official who didn't believe a pump could supply more than one building. Now any big industrial complex with a pump and tank- or more- usually feeds more than one building, but he wanted some proof. I requested a letter (actually a REPLY) from a couple committee members of both 13 and 20, the applicable standards, and he accepted them as sufficient evidence what we proposed met the intent of the committee. So there's another reason to go to AFSA's convention, it s more likely you'll get a letter back from a TC member if you've bought em a refreshment or at least bothered to show up at convention and met em. Otherwise you're liable to be classified as one who asks questions he could look up, and lazy isn't a reason for bothering the TC members. Those pump letters spared my customer something like a dozen pumps, some 13Ds, some 20's. Any question that membership in our associations and attendance at convention allows you the tools to properly serve your customers? I saw a competitor's proposal on Friday that stated their insurance company does not allow them to do anything that isn't in the code. By inference, I'm thinking performance-based design and anything under 1.4 Equivalency isn't touched with a 10-foot pole. I like that because there are times when alternative means and methods make sense and a strict adherence to the applicable standard doesn't, not to mention a couple million dollars in Quell jobs we've done. Be sure to provide written substantiation to the AHJ supporting your Equivalency, produced by someone competent to write the documentation, or you're just outside the code. glc -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 9:12 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: 2010 handling and storage of combustibles Thanks for the debate but is there anyone on the committee that can help? What about the most common overhang we see in these situations: hangs over the truck to keep things dry while entering the building, there is no "dock" under the Overhang. When we try to protect it and also get paid for doing so, what do I hang my liability hat on with the legalists out there? "It doesn't say handled, and sitting out there for a few hours is not stored" Can't you hear it now? On 8/30/2010 8:07 AM, [email protected] wrote: > It's just the nature of the beast. There are a lot of things not clarified or defined in the Codes. > > My biggest challenge right now being the occupancy classification of a machine shop, architects have one idea, engineers and operators another. Only those who put these undefined categories in the Codes know what is what for sure. > > Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled topic..................... > > Craig L. Prahl, CET > Fire Protection Specialist > Mechanical Department > CH2MHILL > Lockwood Greene > 1500 International Drive > Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 > Direct - 864.599.4102 > Fax - 864.599.8439 > [email protected] > http://www.ch2m.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Todd > Williams > Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 8:54 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: 2010 handling and storage of combustibles > > Then why doesn't NFPA and/or the Building Codes state that? (i.e not > include it in the same section as porte cochere). It would make our > lives easier. > > A8.15.7.5 describes "Short-term transient storage" and states that it > should not be considered storage or handing of combustibles. So if a > pallet of goods is put down on a dock while a truck is being loaded > and organized for deliveries, would that be short-term transient > storage? I think the original question was in effect, what constitutes > "short-term"? Legit question. Goes back to my unattended comment. > > I know appendix material is not part of the standard, however, it is > quite frequently either incorporated into Code or used for interpretation. > > > > At 08:49 AM 8/30/2010, you wrote: >> Exactly. That's why you protect it if its intended use is storage. >> We're not the police. >> >> A congregation just moved into their new church we sprinklered after >> 29 years in their "temporary" sanctuary. Nuff said? >> >> glc >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Todd >> Williams >> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 8:37 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: RE: 2010 handling and storage of combustibles >> >> If a pallet touches the ground, it's storage? Difficult to police in >> real life. >> >> >> >> At 08:26 AM 8/30/2010, you wrote: >>> "..not ever stored.." means they are NEVER placed there for any >>> reason ever. I have had the pleasure of playing semantics with >>> those who will say, "they are STAGED, not stored", when I ask for >>> how long, well that depends, might be a few hours, might be a few >>> days. So >> >from a personal standpoint, staging, handling, storage are >>> all treated as storage. If there is any chance that any >>> combustible commodities will be placed within the area for any >>> length of time, it's a potential STORAGE area. >>> >>> Craig L. Prahl, CET >>> Fire Protection Specialist >>> Mechanical Department >>> CH2MHILL >>> Lockwood Greene >>> 1500 International Drive >>> Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 >>> Direct - 864.599.4102 >>> Fax - 864.599.8439 >>> [email protected] >>> http://www.ch2m.com >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [email protected] >>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Greg >>> McGahan >>> Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 10:46 PM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: 2010 handling and storage of combustibles >>> >>> Can someone please look in the 2010 handbook and tell me what the >>> intent of 8.15.7.1, 2 and 5 is? According to the way I read it - >>> >>> .1 states that all overhangs over 4' wide need protection UNLESS >>> .2,.3 or .4 are met. >>> .2 states that protection can be omitted if the overhang is over 4' >>> wide and made of Non-comb material >>> .5 states that protection is required if the overhang is OVER 2' >>> wide and combustible materials are STORED >>> >>> Therefore, if you have a noncombustible canopy that is over 4'-0" >>> wide where combustibles are loaded and unloaded but not stored then >>> protection is not required regardless of the size of the overhang? >>> >>> So now we could have a canopy that covers thousands of square feet >>> and yet materials are not ever "stored" under them and protection is >>> not required? >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>> >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >>> [email protected] >>> >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >>> to:[email protected] >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>> >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >>> [email protected] >>> >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >>> to:[email protected] >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> Todd G. Williams, PE >> Fire Protection Design/Consulting >> Stonington, CT >> 860.535.2080 >> www.fpdc.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email >> to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email >> to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > Todd G. Williams, PE > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > Stonington, CT > 860.535.2080 > www.fpdc.com > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
