In SC when our office reviews the shop drawing stage submissions, we require complete documentation including both hydraulic and seismic calculations (unless not applicable). In addition, some designs we may also require submission of structural calculations [for non-listed hangers], sizing calculations [for trapeze hangers], and thermodynamic (heat transfer) calculations [to address freeze protection concerns such as piping crossing an unheated space between heated areas].
In South Carolina, our SC Fire Protection Sprinkler Systems Act [http://www.scstatehouse.gov/code/t40c010.htm] has codified requirements for fire sprinkler systems and [generally speaking (there are exceptions)] requires: 1) a licensed engineer [at a minimum] completes and seals, signs, and dates a Fire Sprinkler System Specification Sheet form [See http://www.scfiremarshal.llronline.com/EngServices/index.asp?file=forms.htm] to specify the design basics (per 40-10-240 & 250) 2) a licensed sprinkler contractor prepare the shop drawings, include their license number on the drawing, and have a qualifier [NICET III or IV] for that office sign the drawing (per 40-10-260(A)) 3) the licensed engineer [of record] perform a compliance review of the licensed sprinkler contractors shop drawings, associated calculations, and other documentation(per 40-10-260(B)) 4) the licensed engineer, after completing their compliance review iterations with the licensed sprinkler contractor, completes and seals, signs, and dates a Certificate of Compliance form [See http://www.scfiremarshal.llronline.com/EngServices/index.asp?file=forms.htm] (per 40-10-260(D)(1)) 5) the local AHJ or state AHJ may require plan review by them, us, or both. (per 40-10-260(C)(2)) 6) we can either accept the P.E. certification after performing a limited review or perform a complete review 7) we are part of the same agency that licenses the engineers and contractors, and we refer both types to the appropriate licensing board for various offenses There are many specifics for fire sprinkler contractors found in SECTION 40-10-110 regarding "Offenses warranting disciplinary actions; civil penalties; revocation or cancellation of license; work in progress." The engineering law [in 40-22-20] defines "Fraud or deceit", "Gross negligence", "Incompetence" and "Misconduct". We refer those that earn it to our agency's Office of Investigations and Enforcement. The engineering law details the "Penalties; grounds" in SECTION 40-22-110. See http://www.llr.state.sc.us/POL/Contractors/index.asp?file=disciplininfo.htm and http://www.llr.state.sc.us/POL/Engineers/index.asp?file=disciplininfo.htm for lists of formal final disciplinary actions. Our sprinkler Act needs improvement but is a good start to ensuring the involvement of properly licensed designers [P.E. or NICET IV(only allowed where building is exempt from P.E. requirement in law)]. Feel free to utilize our law text as a starting model/inspiration for legislation in other states.... Respectfully, David W. S. Blackwell, II, PE, CFPE Engineer III Office of State Fire Marshal SC Department of Labor, Licensing, & Regulation, 141 Monticello Trail, Columbia, SC 29203 Telephone: 803.896.9800 [Office] 803.896.9833 [Direct] Fax: 803.896.9806 [Office] Email: [email protected] Website: http://www.scfiremarshal.llronline.com/ Please note that you can sign up to receive automatic information on SC Division of Fire and Life Safety current events, policies, laws and procedures by visiting our Web site at: http://www.scfiremarshal.llronline.com/ -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mark Sornsin Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:06 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Engineers Stamp vs. Seal Those in the business since the 1970s please correct me if I'm wrong: It's been my impression that there is another factor at work, and that is the fact that fire sprinkler design once used to be relatively simple - you went to NFPA 13 for your spacing rules and pipe schedule information, etc. Design was more akin to plumbing design. Hence, the engineers relegated it to their techs. Many engineering plans I've seen from the 1960s show pipe layouts and sizes - not often run in logical locations (e.g. branch lines parallel to the joists), but certainly far closer to reality than today's efforts by most engineering firms. As time went on technology and progress changed the game, the engineers were too out of it to notice. Then all of a sudden, sprinklers were being required in more and more buildings - yet most didn't bother to change. And here we are. To be fair, I know of a few MEs who recognize this issue and have done something about it. They have either avoided fire sprinkler specifying, or they have gotten educated. In both cases they are being true to their professional engineering code of ethics. As far as I'm concerned it's criminal that more haven't altered their practice in one of these two ways. I don't claim to be a perfect PE; but I accept my limitations. I have never signed an HVAC or plumbing drawing, despite my ME degree. I wish the same were true of the MEs who don't know fire suppression. Mark A. Sornsin, PE| Fire Protection Engineer Ulteig Engineers, Inc.| Fargo, ND [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 11:44 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Engineers Stamp vs. Seal That points to one of my favorite things about this controversy: When there wasn't much going on techs were sufficient but when there became real and sustained money to be made all of a sudden inexperienced engineers became more knowledgeable by legislative fiat than thirty year veteran techs. Wizard of Oz stuff. On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 9:29 AM, 321 <[email protected]> wrote: > ----Original Message----- > From: > [email protected][mailto: > [email protected]] > On Behalf Of A.P.Silva > Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 12:19 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Engineers Stamp vs. Seal > > Was it different before 30 years? > > Tony > > ...about 35 years ago the only work we were doing was insurance > mandated warehouse and commercial property conservation systems for > FM...IRI,etc. > When > the codes changed during the boom in the late 70's ~ early '80's the > PE community decided that they needed to get in on the action. About > 10% of the PE's involved in Fire Sprinklers here in Florida know what > they are doing and are pretty sharp...the rest of them are clueless. > > > John W. Farabee > Vice President Fire Sprinkler Operations State License No. > 20251600012010 > 1480 SW 3RD Street Suite 9 > Pompano Beach, Fl 33411 > 954-785-7800 800-372-2770 Telephone > 954-785-7804 Fax > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: George Church <[email protected]> > To: "[email protected]" > <[email protected]> > Sent: Mon, August 29, 2011 3:45:36 PM > Subject: RE: Engineers Stamp vs. Seal > > No. > Maybe even worse. > I remember in mid/late 70's we'd explain to the PEs what the reams of > computer printouts meant (generated by the mainframe in Cleveland HQ > by guys in white coats on raised > floors) > After we got done our explanation, they'd stamp em approved and send > em back to us. > > Yes, this is when fittings were threaded then a 1'-6 pce TG to a > grooved > coupling- > > I believe the cost of two 6" grooved 90's and 4 couplings was the same > as > 16 > hours of Local 692 labor in Phila. > We had 5" and 3.5", and a lot of 1-1-1.25.......still have those > memorized, even above and below. > > Frankly, I think it more important to focus on getting sprinklers in > houses rather than licensing laws. > We'd save more people, create a larger market, and we have actually > achieved our goals in some pockets, one of them being PA for 4 months. > Whereas, are there ANY jurisdictions where FPEs specify all criteria, > give us corrected flow tests for basis of calcs, on 90% or more of > projects? > I'll wager none on Earth except Lake Woebegone, just up the Red River > from Fargo, where all the children are above average, and there's a PTA. > > I was told once that getting drunk drivers off the road would save > more lives than all our residential sprinklers- and at 3,000 annual > deaths vrs 55,000 for drunks killing us, can't say I could argue. > I just kept pushing for resi sprinklers, tho. I don't own an insurance > company. > > > > George L. Church, Jr., CET > Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc. > PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842 > 877-324-ROWE 570-837-6335 fax > [email protected] > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > A.P.Silva > Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 12:19 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Engineers Stamp vs. Seal > > Was it different before 30 years? > > Tony > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of 321 > Sent: August 29, 2011 9:59 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Engineers Stamp vs. Seal > > Welcome to the party...here in Florida we have been dealing with this > stupidity for 30 years. > > > > > John W. Farabee > Vice President Fire Sprinkler Operations State License No. > 20251600012010 > 1480 SW 3RD Street Suite 9 > Pompano Beach, Fl 33411 > 954-785-7800 800-372-2770 Telephone > 954-785-7804 Fax > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was > scrubbed... > URL: > < > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attac > hment > s/20110829/4f2f3c22/attachment.html> > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was > scrubbed... > URL: < > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attac > hments/20110830/e272fa1c/attachment.html > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 [email protected] http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20110830/5cb7e8a3/attachment.html> _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
