Those in the business since the 1970s please correct me if I'm wrong: It's been my impression that there is another factor at work, and that is the fact that fire sprinkler design once used to be relatively simple - you went to NFPA 13 for your spacing rules and pipe schedule information, etc. Design was more akin to plumbing design. Hence, the engineers relegated it to their techs. Many engineering plans I've seen from the 1960s show pipe layouts and sizes - not often run in logical locations (e.g. branch lines parallel to the joists), but certainly far closer to reality than today's efforts by most engineering firms.
As time went on technology and progress changed the game, the engineers were too out of it to notice. Then all of a sudden, sprinklers were being required in more and more buildings - yet most didn't bother to change. And here we are. To be fair, I know of a few MEs who recognize this issue and have done something about it. They have either avoided fire sprinkler specifying, or they have gotten educated. In both cases they are being true to their professional engineering code of ethics. As far as I'm concerned it's criminal that more haven't altered their practice in one of these two ways. I don't claim to be a perfect PE; but I accept my limitations. I have never signed an HVAC or plumbing drawing, despite my ME degree. I wish the same were true of the MEs who don't know fire suppression. Mark A. Sornsin, PE| Fire Protection Engineer Ulteig Engineers, Inc.| Fargo, NDÂ [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 11:44 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Engineers Stamp vs. Seal That points to one of my favorite things about this controversy: When there wasn't much going on techs were sufficient but when there became real and sustained money to be made all of a sudden inexperienced engineers became more knowledgeable by legislative fiat than thirty year veteran techs. Wizard of Oz stuff. On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 9:29 AM, 321 <[email protected]> wrote: > ----Original Message----- > From: > [email protected][mailto: > [email protected]] > On Behalf Of A.P.Silva > Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 12:19 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Engineers Stamp vs. Seal > > Was it different before 30 years? > > Tony > > ...about 35 years ago the only work we were doing was insurance > mandated warehouse and commercial property conservation systems for > FM...IRI,etc. > When > the codes changed during the boom in the late 70's ~ early '80's the > PE community decided that they needed to get in on the action. About > 10% of the PE's involved in Fire Sprinklers here in Florida know what > they are doing and are pretty sharp...the rest of them are clueless. > > > John W. Farabee > Vice President Fire Sprinkler Operations State License No. > 20251600012010 > 1480 SW 3RD Street Suite 9 > Pompano Beach, Fl 33411 > 954-785-7800 800-372-2770 Telephone > 954-785-7804 Fax > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: George Church <[email protected]> > To: "[email protected]" > <[email protected]> > Sent: Mon, August 29, 2011 3:45:36 PM > Subject: RE: Engineers Stamp vs. Seal > > No. > Maybe even worse. > I remember in mid/late 70's we'd explain to the PEs what the reams of > computer printouts meant (generated by the mainframe in Cleveland HQ > by guys in white coats on raised > floors) > After we got done our explanation, they'd stamp em approved and send > em back to us. > > Yes, this is when fittings were threaded then a 1'-6 pce TG to a > grooved > coupling- > > I believe the cost of two 6" grooved 90's and 4 couplings was the same > as > 16 > hours of Local 692 labor in Phila. > We had 5" and 3.5", and a lot of 1-1-1.25.......still have those > memorized, even above and below. > > Frankly, I think it more important to focus on getting sprinklers in > houses rather than licensing laws. > We'd save more people, create a larger market, and we have actually > achieved our goals in some pockets, one of them being PA for 4 months. > Whereas, are there ANY jurisdictions where FPEs specify all criteria, > give us corrected flow tests for basis of calcs, on 90% or more of > projects? > I'll wager none on Earth except Lake Woebegone, just up the Red River > from Fargo, where all the children are above average, and there's a PTA. > > I was told once that getting drunk drivers off the road would save > more lives than all our residential sprinklers- and at 3,000 annual > deaths vrs 55,000 for drunks killing us, can't say I could argue. > I just kept pushing for resi sprinklers, tho. I don't own an insurance > company. > > > > George L. Church, Jr., CET > Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc. > PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842 > 877-324-ROWE 570-837-6335 fax > [email protected] > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > A.P.Silva > Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 12:19 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Engineers Stamp vs. Seal > > Was it different before 30 years? > > Tony > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of 321 > Sent: August 29, 2011 9:59 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Engineers Stamp vs. Seal > > Welcome to the party...here in Florida we have been dealing with this > stupidity for 30 years. > > > > > John W. Farabee > Vice President Fire Sprinkler Operations State License No. > 20251600012010 > 1480 SW 3RD Street Suite 9 > Pompano Beach, Fl 33411 > 954-785-7800 800-372-2770 Telephone > 954-785-7804 Fax > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was > scrubbed... > URL: > < > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attac > hment > s/20110829/4f2f3c22/attachment.html> > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was > scrubbed... > URL: < > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attac > hments/20110830/e272fa1c/attachment.html > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 [email protected] http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20110830/5cb7e8a3/attachment.html> _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
