Or the folks that die needlessly in a sprinklered building. While many of us first thing of the black eye that gives our industry, it is they that suffer the pain of burns, or their families that suffer the pain of loss. Example- Group home with sprinklers, protected in accordance with NY State statutes, maybe 2 years old, several die.
Can we get more than a little impact with multiple fatalities? No. PA's legislature ignored 7 dead kids 30 miles away as they flipped single family sprinkler requirements. Ask any of today's kids in the industry about what the Triangle Shirtwaist fire was about- you might get lucky and a signatory apprentice might know about the labor movement resulting from it, but unlikely many will understand what it did to drive building codes. First Interstate? Meridian? There's massive skyscrapers on both coasts, just a distant memory. Think those will help get resi sprinklers in existing high-rise resi buildings? Not when our industry's "spokesmen" say a standpipe system will take care of it as an alternative means and methods. My mom's 93- she's not going to hold a 1.5" nozzle at a fire. Can yours at 60? And yet we SHOULD know many above the fire will be dead waiting for the FD. I'll walk in a fire pump room and first look for the single tap for sensing lines, always a quick giveaway to someone cutting corners. Around here, an amazingly large # of them are rigged that way. Anyone older in the industry ever remember one tap being in #20? I don't from mid-70's on. How do these get by inspectors, insurance inspectors, AHJs on acceptance test, and for that matter, the factory rep doing startup? Frankly its amazing we haven't had more (unnecessary ) fire deaths and property loss than we have had. Are the incompetent PE's to blame? Partially. I've done my share of tilting at windmills like Don Quixote, or playing Chicken Little. It's frustrating, I get it out of my system, and go on to what I should be doing. Hopefully I positively influenced some change here or there. Improved at least the way some people do things, or at least got them thinking. Some Linked-In discussion group was wondering why we don't have FPE's designing all our work, and I pointed out that we need to clone them about 600x over what we've got to even begin to do so. Amazing how clueless about the rest of the industry many of us are, myself included in many segments. Soapbox <OFF> home for dinner and night shift.....thank God I married a Saint. Least I can do is have her sleep in a sprinklered home :) Do you? George L. Church, Jr., CET Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc. PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842 877-324-ROWE 570-837-6335 fax [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:17 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Engineers Stamp vs. Seal Kudos to you Mark...and to the rest of the contributors or readers who follow those guidelines. Ethics are overridden by greed many times. Bottom line, is that when Engineers spec the wrong things OR contractors install the wrong things, it is the owner and ultimately our industry that gets hurt. Greg On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 6:06 PM, Mark Sornsin <[email protected]>wrote: > Those in the business since the 1970s please correct me if I'm wrong: > > It's been my impression that there is another factor at work, and that > is the fact that fire sprinkler design once used to be relatively > simple - you went to NFPA 13 for your spacing rules and pipe schedule > information, etc. > Design was more akin to plumbing design. Hence, the engineers > relegated it to their techs. Many engineering plans I've seen from > the 1960s show pipe layouts and sizes - not often run in logical > locations (e.g. branch lines parallel to the joists), but certainly > far closer to reality than today's efforts by most engineering firms. > > As time went on technology and progress changed the game, the > engineers were too out of it to notice. Then all of a sudden, > sprinklers were being required in more and more buildings - yet most > didn't bother to change. And here we are. > > To be fair, I know of a few MEs who recognize this issue and have done > something about it. They have either avoided fire sprinkler > specifying, or they have gotten educated. In both cases they are being > true to their professional engineering code of ethics. As far as I'm > concerned it's criminal that more haven't altered their practice in one of > these two ways. > > I don't claim to be a perfect PE; but I accept my limitations. I have > never signed an HVAC or plumbing drawing, despite my ME degree. I wish > the same were true of the MEs who don't know fire suppression. > > Mark A. Sornsin, PE| Fire Protection Engineer Ulteig Engineers, Inc.| > Fargo, ND [email protected] > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman > Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 11:44 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Engineers Stamp vs. Seal > > That points to one of my favorite things about this controversy: When > there wasn't much going on techs were sufficient but when there became > real and sustained money to be made all of a sudden inexperienced > engineers became more knowledgeable by legislative fiat than thirty year > veteran techs. > Wizard of Oz stuff. > > On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 9:29 AM, 321 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > ----Original Message----- > > From: > > [email protected][mailto: > > [email protected]] > > On Behalf Of A.P.Silva > > Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 12:19 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Engineers Stamp vs. Seal > > > > Was it different before 30 years? > > > > Tony > > > > ...about 35 years ago the only work we were doing was insurance > > mandated warehouse and commercial property conservation systems for > FM...IRI,etc. > > When > > the codes changed during the boom in the late 70's ~ early '80's the > > PE community decided that they needed to get in on the action. About > > 10% of the PE's involved in Fire Sprinklers here in Florida know > > what they are doing and are pretty sharp...the rest of them are clueless. > > > > > > John W. Farabee > > Vice President Fire Sprinkler Operations State License No. > > 20251600012010 > > 1480 SW 3RD Street Suite 9 > > Pompano Beach, Fl 33411 > > 954-785-7800 800-372-2770 Telephone > > 954-785-7804 Fax > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: George Church <[email protected]> > > To: "[email protected]" > > <[email protected]> > > Sent: Mon, August 29, 2011 3:45:36 PM > > Subject: RE: Engineers Stamp vs. Seal > > > > No. > > Maybe even worse. > > I remember in mid/late 70's we'd explain to the PEs what the reams > > of computer printouts meant (generated by the mainframe in Cleveland > > HQ by guys in white coats on raised > > floors) > > After we got done our explanation, they'd stamp em approved and send > > em back to us. > > > > Yes, this is when fittings were threaded then a 1'-6 pce TG to a > > grooved > > coupling- > > > > I believe the cost of two 6" grooved 90's and 4 couplings was the > > same as > > 16 > > hours of Local 692 labor in Phila. > > We had 5" and 3.5", and a lot of 1-1-1.25.......still have those > > memorized, even above and below. > > > > Frankly, I think it more important to focus on getting sprinklers in > > houses rather than licensing laws. > > We'd save more people, create a larger market, and we have actually > > achieved our goals in some pockets, one of them being PA for 4 months. > > Whereas, are there ANY jurisdictions where FPEs specify all > > criteria, give us corrected flow tests for basis of calcs, on 90% or > > more of projects? > > I'll wager none on Earth except Lake Woebegone, just up the Red > > River from Fargo, where all the children are above average, and there's a > > PTA. > > > > I was told once that getting drunk drivers off the road would save > > more lives than all our residential sprinklers- and at 3,000 annual > > deaths vrs 55,000 for drunks killing us, can't say I could argue. > > I just kept pushing for resi sprinklers, tho. I don't own an > > insurance company. > > > > > > > > George L. Church, Jr., CET > > Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc. > > PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842 > > 877-324-ROWE 570-837-6335 fax > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > A.P.Silva > > Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 12:19 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Engineers Stamp vs. Seal > > > > Was it different before 30 years? > > > > Tony > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of 321 > > Sent: August 29, 2011 9:59 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: Engineers Stamp vs. Seal > > > > Welcome to the party...here in Florida we have been dealing with > > this stupidity for 30 years. > > > > > > > > > > John W. Farabee > > Vice President Fire Sprinkler Operations State License No. > > 20251600012010 > > 1480 SW 3RD Street Suite 9 > > Pompano Beach, Fl 33411 > > 954-785-7800 800-372-2770 Telephone > > 954-785-7804 Fax > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was > > scrubbed... > > URL: > > < > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/att > > ac > > hment > > s/20110829/4f2f3c22/attachment.html> > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was > > scrubbed... > > URL: < > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/att > > ac hments/20110830/e272fa1c/attachment.html > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > > > -- > Ron Greenman > Instructor > Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > Tacoma, WA 98405 > > [email protected] > > http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > 253.680.7346 > 253.576.9700 (cell) > > Member: > ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis > Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was > scrubbed... > URL: < > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attac > hments/20110830/5cb7e8a3/attachment.html > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > -- Greg McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC <http://www.livingwaterfp.com> 1160 McKenzie Road Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 fax 850-937-1852 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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